I agree PAXboy - the first couple of reasons are for sure something to do with it. They have lowered expectations so much as an industry that now Americans travelling domestically don't know what it is like travelling in other parts of the world.

It could also be that the Americans were doing it for so much longer than everyone else - there was no train system to compete with such as in Europe, that flying became less of a "luxury" sooner.

Speaking to an American friend yesterday, she says that although in competitive situations such as retail and the restaurant industry the customer service levels are high, public services in the US have notoriously low levels, and the airlines, through all the mergers and consolidation that has been going on, now often see themselves as a public service and have correspondingly low levels of customer care.

The real kicker in my mind is the code share - KLM and Northwest used to have an almost synchronised product. Now if I book BA and get AA I have a completely different experience. Should be flying AA to the US in November so I will muse about it until then!

XSB

Is it not correct to say that every and each flight is different irrespective of the airline. The irony as an ex Customer and Cabin Crew customer service training manager vast sums of monies are spent annually to this end. Still there is little or no consistency of the service or the product and unsurprisingly customer services on a flight are still the major source of complaints, after the toilets and dirty cabins.

As previously stated keep dumping down on standards and ultimately the customer seems to get less and probably expect little. Oh for the days when you could disembark after a business / club long haul flight feeling bloated and if in First light up a cigar.

"there was no train system to compete with such as in Europe"

Well O'Hare always reminded me of Bus Station wayback in the '70's......

Re meals, I take it you are all aware off

AirlineMeals.net - Airline catering * the world's largest website about airline catering, inflight meals and special meals

HZ - I was intrigued by your post

"there is little or no consistency of the service or the product"

as someone who has obviously been in the front line why do you think this is so?

And have airlines ever tried to keep a data base of which CC get good reviews and which ones don't??

Birdseed per chance? :)

BA is bringing in a system called 'Dashboard' that enables staff and passengers to mark the service levels during a flight and also the condition of check-in service /catering/aircraft cleanliness and wash rooms. Most airlines have systems in place that monitor performance and quality, this has been around for 20 plus years.

However, reading some of the threaders comments it is not that effective and surely must be governed/influenced by what the company is prepared to spend on the product and those delivering it. Continually cutting service levels and reducing levels of pay certainly contribute to customer dissatisfaction for those travelling on 'legacy' airlines who may expect higher levels of service and product.

Most aircraft I travel on and that is about 4-5 times a year are usually dirty inside, finger marks, grubby trays, food debris around the seats etc. That is my experience, usually in Club / Business. However, I would not complain as I accept this as the norm.

And here lies the problem. Too many think like this about so many below standard services in society today that those grossly overpaid paid managers responsible for generating these poor standards don't care a damn. We don't complain enough people!

The only difference i notice flying Economy on US carriers is
- No announcements from flight-deck - not a dicky bird
- Seat belt signs permanently on even on a smooth crossing
- Food sub par
- Cabin crew non existent after first service
- free seat selection on most.
Apart from that Economy is Economy on either and if its going at the time i want at the price I want I couldnt care less.

One of the best flights I had to East coast was on a United 757 half empty.

I stopped complaining when it made no difference. Now, I just try to avoid the <whichever> company. Sometimes, you have no choice on a route.

I have found that complaining, or giving suggestions to the (so called) customer service department is like talking to a grave, so I don't waste my time.

I understand and share your sentiment. But that's simply because not enough bother to complain. We tend to shrug our shoulders and get on with it. The result of that is the continuous erosion of what should be basic service levels.

"if its going at the time i want at the price I want I couldnt care less"

I suspect this is the attitude of 95% of passengers

Sure, but then again that's OK for those who are happy to fly with the likes of RYR etc. The problem is with the erosion of service levels when paying higher fares.

Hotel Tango. Yes, I agree and wish it were not so. If you are a single pax, or low tier, you get a standard letter and the complaint gets added to a pile and, I dare say, is reviewed with others at years end. If you are high tier, or corporate, you get a few more FFMs.

The problem is not just the airlines. I cannot think of ANY company to whom I have complained that has not brought the standard letter but, mostly, silence. I have tried old style letters, emails and phone calls but NOTHING happens. If you get a standard letter, consider yourself lucky. I do not have the time to waste.

We have all sat listening to the, "Your phone call is very important to us" when the system is designed to keep people waiting the maximum amount of time so as to reduce costs. (I was in telecommunications for 27 years)

Western people have demonstrated that they want the lowest price possible - and we have it! I first noted corporate customer service failing in the USA in the early 1990s.

PAXboy you are spot on with your comments.

If things get really stupid and it's a significant issue, write a short letter to the CEO. Recorded delivery, specifying your consumer rights, your expectations for resolution and list the interactions with his/her organisation.

Needed to do it 3 or 4 times, always works

Slight thread drift.

By coincidence, I read today this How long will you wait for a shopping website to load? - BBC News It tells us about impatience:
So, they won't wait another couple of seconds but will go for another site and might have to wait for that to load. Had they have stayed put - they would have got the informaiton they want.

Folks who will not wait a few seconds are not going to spend time talking to Customer Services about their experience. Companies know that brand loyalty (as known in post war era) has evaporated.

Not necessarily ...

When I lived in the UK Midlands I would endeavour to travel thru BHX which normally entailed the likes of KLM, Swiss, Air France, Lufty and/or SAS ... I wasn't going to drive/travel to/from LON or MAN to save ten quid or whatever.

Where I live now (IAO) the current runway length only permits one local operator, a LoCo, but at least I can buy a, albeit overpriced, beer and a sandwich on board.

Should I dare to fly the, more expensive, flag carrier for 2 hours SUG/MNL one is subjected to a disgusting piece of cake (I don't eat cake) and a plastic cup of water ... even prisoners get better catering than that!

Internationally I have my favoured carriers such as Swiss and Cathay, I will always try to travel with those if only for the level of cabin service and it would take one hell of a (financial saving) carrot to persuade me away from either of those or other favoured carriers I may have.

Another side of that coin. Perhaps not the lowest of tiers and nor a solo pax, but in the last couple of years I've twice felt compelled to contact BA via their website about their declining (but not delayed flight) WT+ service standards.

On both occasions, after a few days, they emailed back with an apology and two x £100 coupon numbers - one for Mrs Seafire and the other for myself, for use on any BA flight within the following year.

I might be exceptionally fortunate, but with BA at least, the complaint was apparently taken seriously and it did pay to complain. Alas, l've since seen no hint of accompanying improvements on BA though!

When I was in customer service I used to investigate and respond to complaints (this was for the airport authority) and usually many people were happy with an explanation and an apology. This just shows that the previous comments on this thread are totally accurate, everyone is used to a standard letter these days.
Of course if the complaint was just something, for example about ground connections or a delay, I had standard letters ready too :E

I wrote to an airline about an issue I had in January, got a standard letter saying that they would deal with it within six weeks, still no response in August, would I fly with them again? Well yes being a member of their FF club and them being cheap and convenient on a route I fly often. Not happy with myself but that's what they do!

XSB

seafire6b That's the experience I'm talking about! Now, I'm happy to have the FFMs and vouchers but I know that nothing will change.

(further drift away from airlines as such) [sorry S.o.S.]
As it happens, half an hour ago, I opened a new package of a product that I have used for over 12 years. It's an item of specialised stationery that I use in my work. The product price has increased steadily over that time and is very high BUT the product quality has remained the same throughout. It is great quality, well packaged, never arrives damaged. Both the company and their product is reliable - so I pay the price and continue to use it.

I have lost count of the products that have deteriorated in quality - whilst the price continues to rise.

Once again I am in agreement with PAXboy....from the Ryanair experience it can be seen that some small improvements have a very positive effect on customer service.

Whilst customers can become accustomed to accepting a declining level of service (back to my old point about expectations on US domestic flights), a consistent and reliable service doesn't have to cost the company dearly, and the benefits will also please the ever-present shareholders.

XSB

Rev man 2 suggested a letter to the CEO........in fact if you google CEO together with airline/company, you are able to complain directly to whoever reads the CEO's emails. Have used this method of complaining many times and with complete success every time. Included Branson who sent me a free case of wine following delivery problems with the case I ordered.

Just don't waste time with customer service jobsworths!

Thanks PAXboy. My point was and as previously suggested here, if more people complained and if, for example BA, found themselves frequently shelling out various two hundred quid tokens per flight - just to keep the punters quiet - then hopefully, someone at Waterside will eventually realise, even although it's a trifle costlier, it's better to keep most of the people happy, most of the time.

Not Business Class, but an airline I admire is JetBlue; on my first flight with them quite some years ago, I had to keep reminding myself they're classified as a LoCo carrier. The online reviews and polls would seem to confirm that JB do indeed, "keep most of the passengers happy, most of the time".

PAXboy said:As said in my earlier post, perhaps I'm exceptionally fortunate, but your experience is vastly different from my own. That doesn't only apply to airlines, but numerous and varied other businesses too. Rather than simply complain, I attempt to offer companies a constructive insight regarding how they might improve their customers' perception and even gain some loyalty. However, if I feel my viewpoint goes unheard, then like most people, I'm certainly not averse to voting with my feet - but whilst also communicating accordingly. If all else fails, that's Joe Public's final sanction.

You never know, perhaps that's one reason why BA paid £200 for each of my two "Post-flight PR consultations" - all performed in minutes and on their own website too!

Congrats, seafire6b, you must have the right turn of phrase!

I agree that, if enough complained - the pile of money might get high enough for them to notice. I'd like to hope it works that way.

When I write to other companies, I obviously say the wrong things. :sad:

It all comes down to too many people making purchase decisions based on cost rather than value (hence the huge success of Walmart on this side of the pond). Further, a trip on an airplane is over quickly, so you're not continually reminded of the low price experience. That's unlike buying (for example) a cheap toaster - where you are reminded of how badly it works every time you make toast and once side comes out burned and the other side untoasted. So eventually you spend more money to get a better toaster.
Most people don't travel by air very often, so after six months or a year they forget that they had crappy experience on xyz, and xyz is $10 cheaper so next time they book xyz again.
So what happens is the majors can't compete on price and still offer all the perks. In the US, Alaska Air used to have a premium product, and advertised as much (going as far as make fun of the LCC with ads showing pay toilets on the competition's aircraft and some poor schmuck trying to get change so he can relieve himself). Unfortunately too many people were unwilling to pay a little extra to get a decent food and more legroom and their business dropped dramatically. So they morphed into a LCC (granted, one of the better LCC) and their business is thriving.

Is that really what they are doing? They are giving you a voucher which can only be used on another BA flight encouraging you to do exactly that (No more "I'll never fly them again"). I don't think they are valid for ticket purchase either, but you might even pay a higher price just so you can 'use' your voucher. Crafty.

The vast majority of people do not buy on board and on BA that would likely be for booze, death sticks, gadgets, perfume, and other stuff. So giving you a voucher they are stimulating purchases. Perhaps you would spend even more than the voucher amount. Do they actually lose, not with every pax.

I don't see this as being completely altruistic on their part, more manipulative. I'd rather have £20 cash than £100 in vouchers.

Not quite so, ExXB. My first of the £200 vouchers was given 18 months ago. Until then I was a reasonably content BA customer, but then noted distinct slippage in their WT+ standards which then drove my contact with them. Not wishing to dismiss any company on the basis of one poor performance, I again chose BA WT+ for another trip, subsidised by their previous £200 contribution.

To my genuine regret, that second trip confirmed my previous experience was not a "one off"; BA were cutting corners to increase revenue, but to the observable detriment of passenger service. Hence the second of those £200 vouchers - they were used on a nice trip to Cyprus last June! So in my case, yes, as good as cash.

Also, to clarify a point you raise, such vouchers can definitely be used against the cost of BA fares. In fact, when booking, there's a specific "box" on the web page to enter a voucher number (with an option for additional vouchers), the deduction/s then being shown on the final cost breakdown.

However, I do seem to recollect the vouchers (didn't we once call them MCO's?) could not be used for an additional baggage allowance. Regarding onboard purchases, I have no idea. I never buy "stuff" on aircraft, but would imagine voucher-funded purchases are doubtful. Probably cabin attendants are busy enough with cash/card transactions, without then throwing voucher numbers into the mix!

Obviously a "I'll never fly them again" policy is difficult in realistic terms, eventually all the practical alternatives will be exhausted. Having said that, BA WT+ & VS PE are both on my current "no fly" list.

Meanwhile though, as demonstrated onwards from my post #35 at 13:56 16Aug on this thread, proving that BA have lost revenue, I've voted with my feet. Which then begs the question, will they notice - or even care?


With apologies for any thread drift....

No thread drift detected, seafire6b. Thanks to all for a good thread. In my own travels I have experienced many of the disappointments described here.

Some of the financial savants at somewhere like Tax Research should launch a campaign to ensure that employees of stake holder funded companies and public servants should only ever travel in economy class. The results could be swift and effective, reflected by less downside in offset expenses tax claims and an infinitely better service from airlines as global carriers were made to feel the full wrath of corporate and governmental dissatisfaction with their services.
For myself, I never fly business class on daytime flights and only ever on long haul of greater than eight hours or when there is a difference between zones of more than five hours.
As an example, Qantas is the only airline operating Johannesburg to Sydney non stop. The advantages of flying bc on a flight like that, thirteen hours airborne with an eight hour time difference, far outweigh the ghastliness of the airline's concept of their superior sort of flight travel. In any event, bc is surely all about quality of sleep. If I'm flying on that route for a six day visit to see grandchildren, I want hit the deck ready for massive ice cream gorging and water pistol fights. There's no one else to whom one can delegate such a great responsibility; certainly not before decrepitude creeps in.

Cav Cheetah

itsa bit unfair on Gov employees who genuinely have to travel alot to go Y on Long Haul. They are human like everyone else, maybe Bank Employees should only fly Y because their employers are crooks . It sounds good but on the personal level not really within the spirit of fairness that this thread is trying to suggest airlines should operate within.

Almost all companies-even virtualy al if they are from US cut back rather than grow, its easier and cheaper and brand focussed target/bonus obsessed managements find it much easier than actually thinking.

But that doesnt take away the fact that service declines well before price-BA Shorthaul seats are now very cramped and guess what the charge for booking a seat ahead of checking has been increased. Look at how chocolate bars and ice creams have shrunk and shrunk over the years and the quality has deteriorated as inferior ingredients are used.

because of management mobility whereby professional 'managers' move from industry to in dustry usually having no relevant experience and the only thing they can take with them is their MBA mantra of cut costs and grow revenue and its hard to see it changing in the airline business even though 'Safety is always our first priority' as they always claim -just check a few and see how many have a board member responsible for that.

PB

Then government employees should have an option. Either they travel on an economy ticket or the government will book them a business class ticket. In the latter event, the difference in cost between the two classes of travel will be taxable to the employee as a benefit in kind.
Fair is fair after all; a hackneyed word much used by everyone and thus so easily turned against anyone.

edit: spelling correction.