|
How are the membership of BASSA (assuming they wish to) going to go about changing their representatives? Haven't BASSA cleared the way for not having any more elections until this dispute is over? All DH has to do is remain "in dispute" with BA ad infinitum, to keep his seat.
|
Sporran
No doubt we will see how the land lies after the ballot and look at numbers rather than percentages.
|
I don't think there is any chance of BA now agreeing to the integration of EF/WW fleets with Mixed Fleet. The new fleet has been up and running for months and the differences in structure and working practices are too radical. Mixed Fleet has no seniority, one CSM with "Future Talent" crew acting as Pursers, Mixed Fleet cannot choose their working positions by seniority. And so the list goes on.
Add the inherent lack of trust of BASSA by BA and that BASSA has already expended its main weapon of industrial action to little effect. BA holds almost all the cards. There's no doubt that not having the foresight to ensure there was no separate fleet at LHR has been one of the biggest failings of BASSA. How many of the reps thought that stonewalling the company would leave them filed under "too difficult"? Whilst I don't think the scaremongering about crew being starved of work will come true, BASSA's ability to resist productivity improvements and greater flexibility is going to be hugely diminished over time. BA will seek the productivity improvements (Fixed Links at LHR) and working practice changes to improve customer service over time. Even if BASSA obtained bargaining rights for Mixed Fleet, the lack of seniority and relatively transient nature of the workforce and low wages means Mixed Fleet unlikely to be so willing to pay their monthly subscriptions and be so loyal to BASSA as EF/WW crew. |
Why is there this perception that in order for BA to move forward in improving the product in the area of cabin service some accommodation must be reached with Bassa. Has there not been an agreement in place for the last 15 plus years while at the same time service levels have decreased. The idea that CC service levels have decreased over this period is a perspective I have gained from this and other forums. My flights on BA have been over the last 10 years during which time I have noticed little difference although I more often travel in F now. I would suggest that the way to improve CC service levels is to accelerate the development of Mixed Fleet. In MF there is a structure where managers can manage and outstanding service can be rewarded with performance bonuses. I think it unrealistic to think work habits and attitudes will change just because there is an agreement in place. To reiterate my previous post I do not think this dispute will be settled anytime soon. Current Bassa hierarchy have a disincentive to settle the dispute while BA can get on with business. I understand this dispute is costing BA substantial sums, but I do not see an alternative for BA other than executing their business plan. That business plan for CC is a transition to Mixed Fleet.
|
pcat160
There is a financial reason to settle. The dispute is costing money. Without going down the SOSR route, natural wastage will take a long time to remove the legacy cost. BA will be paying a hell of a lot of basic money for current employees to sit at home whilst the MF crew take on more work.
I imagine it would take a change in redundancy laws to sweep out the cost; lucky we haven't got a Government that is looking at employment law legislation................ Bugger, we have! |
Litebulbs - Post 85
Although I enjoy many of you devil's advocate postings, you really are becoming less & less translucent.
|
Makes some sense to me ....
Existing WW crews are going to be a fiscal drain on BA for years to come, until natural wastage takes effect. Not sure why they're all going to be sat at home in the interim though, unless they all throw a sickie :) Elaborate, please, Litebulbs. |
B F has always said it will take at least 10 years for Mixed Fleet to reach 40 % of the total cabin crew workforce. He is still saying this and he frequently pops into training courses such as 'In Touch' and Leaderships courses held for Pursers and CSDs and he draws on flip charts to show why this is the case.
It is only Bassa that says otherwise in an attempt to scare crew. Mixed Fleet is due to grow fast at first to 1400 approx by next February ( by BA offering part-time to current WW and E/F crew and by route expansion) and thereafter it will grow as people on WW and E/F naturally leave or retire. Routes will only transfer to Mixed Fleet as the current fleets shrinks and this is to be done in a fair manner. We have had situations in the past when Bassa has tried to scare crew but BA has always been true to their word and that is why I personally choose to believe BA and not Bassa. It is in BA's interest to have happy crew on all it's fleets and I truly believe that once all this has finally been sorted out, that's what we will end up with. I notice that a lot of people post on here as if they have inside information and post as if they are speaking on behalf of BA. BA have been very clear on what will be happening in the future and they are committed to ALL our fleets. These are my own views and I do not speak on behalf of BA. |
Originally Posted by MPN11
(Post 6330936)
Makes some sense to me ....
Existing WW crews are going to be a fiscal drain on BA for years to come, until natural wastage takes effect. Not sure why they're all going to be sat at home in the interim though, unless they all throw a sickie :) Elaborate, please, Litebulbs. What happens when there are more crew than crewable flights? |
Originally Posted by hautemude
(Post 6330881)
Although I enjoy many of you devil's advocate postings, you really are becoming less & less translucent.
|
Litebulbs,
It does not make financial sense to over recruit M/F crew and have any crew sitting at home whatever contract they are on. BA have also made a commitment NOT to do this and are able to time training courses for new starters to coincide with crew leaving. BA have the ability to offer rest day working on all fleets including M/F and temporary part-time increases or decreases on WW and E/F in periods when they are under crewed or over crewed and they already currently use these methods to adjust crewing levels rather than taking on too many new entrants as you suggest. It really is just a Bassa scare tactic to suggest WW or E/F will sit at home on their supposedly huge!! salaries and do nothing. It just would not make financial sense particularly as the offer includes guaranteed variable pay also on top of our salaries!! The whole point of all these changes is to make crew MORE productive not less, so leaving us sitting at home really does make NO sense at all!! |
If 2000 +or- CC decided to strike during an unprotected IA Mixed Fleet might get a jump start!
|
Betty
I wasn't trying to scare, I was trying to make a point about a negotiating position. If you forget the top table at Bassa, which is a whole other discussion, then my point was about the viability of a negotiated and integrated fleet across all agreements.
|
Originally Posted by pcat160
(Post 6331276)
If 2000 +or- CC decided to strike during an unprotected IA Mixed Fleet might get a jump start!
|
"Un/protected will be matter for the courts." Of course!
|
Un/protected will be matter for the courts. :} |
Originally Posted by Litebulbs
Un/protected will be matter for the courts.
The clue that one of these reasons might be be related to previous action can be seen in bullet point 2, and the phrase "related to the previous dispute" which BASSA has cleverly spelled out for all to see.... It's also important BASSA members are aware of the basis on which the courts will assess the case; in doing so they can judge for themselves whether it's worth the risk of being fired: Taking part in industrial action : Directgov - Employment
Originally Posted by HM Government
If you continue to take part in protected industrial action for more than 12 weeks your rights are different. If you are dismissed for taking part after the end of the 12 weeks your dismissal will only be unfair if, at the time of your dismissal, your employer has not followed reasonable steps to settle the dispute with the trade union. Dismissal and unprotected industrial action Official industrial action organised by a trade union is 'unprotected' if:
If you are dismissed while taking part in unprotected industrial action called for by your trade union, you cannot normally claim unfair dismissal if all the other employees taking part are dismissed as well. You can complain about unfair dismissal if you are dismissed:
Just because you can make a claim for unfair dismissal does not mean it will be successful. That is serious stuff, because if any TU officer (and that would include Branch Sec, for instance) induces someone to breach their contract outside a protected dispute, the employer can take that TU officer, and the TU, to court. It is not clear to me whether this allows for recovery of all and any costs and losses arising from the breach, or is capped at £250,000. That could create a significant personal liability for some. More info here: http://www.freshfields.com/publicati...pr09/25765.pdf Having said all that, I personally believe that BASSA is a busted flush, its actions are now irrelevant to BA as they don't affect the Operation, and BASSA isn't motivated to compromise or settle this dispute, which is effectively lost. So it's very much a case of "Keep Calm and Carry On" whatever the result of BASSA's latest April Fool's Day Ballot. |
Hi Litebulbs,
Good, as it would have been, to have Mixed Fleet integrated into WW and E/F, I am afraid that, that boat has well and truly sailed. There was a small chance, right at the start, that Bassa might have been able to negotiate this by making some changes to our agreements and by making us more cost effective but that opportunity was lost a long time ago. Now that Mixed Fleet is up and running, the savings of that fleet, are large and BA have seen the Golden goose's eggs!! Reintegrating them, with their very different structure, would now I feel be impossible and I cannot see BA being interested in doing this as the terms and conditions are so low that, BA will now have the large turnover of cheap crew that they seem to want on Mixed Fleet, so why would they want to change that ? !!. Nice thought though and what many of us wanted Bassa to negotiate at the start but I am afraid it is now just a dream and what they should be now doing is working with the company to make these changes work in a way that protects us WW, SFG and E/F crew and also helps Mixed Fleet. We do need to somehow improve their agreements which are not good at all and I really do feel for them because some ARE very tired, underpaid and finding their rostering hard at times but of course I do know that as well as this, many are loving working for BA which is great for them. These are my own personal views and not those of BA |
I read this posted on another BB
BASSA > Latest News TOMORROW Mar 27th, 2011 by admin Tomorrow is your day. On Monday, 28th of March 2011, the results of the fifth ballot of British Airways cabin crew will be made known. Whatever the outcome or the result, we are proud of you and proud to represent you. Every single one of you should also be proud of yourselves, for the unwavering support that you have given, not only to your union but also to each other. Other groups can only dream of having this solidarity and camaraderie. No other dispute in history has had so many ballots over so long a period of time; such ongoing support is unprecedented. Indeed it is this very determination that in the end will secure you the settlement you so deserve. The nay-sayers have predicted the end of BASSA at every turn, yet here we are still together and still strong. They may have tried their damndest to destroy us, but to that end they have failed - and that is completely down to you and the support that you have given to us. Far from thousands leaving Unite, the reality is far more encouraging. Our very first ballot was to around 12000 people, our last one went to around 10000. In the interim, 1,800 cabin crew have left British Airways employment, so obviously can no longer be members. To put this into some kind of context, the BA backed PCCC have had to disclose in a legal document submitted for Mark Everard’s tribunal case, that they have less than two hundred members. Considering that it’s free to join, most people appear to have already worked out that you get what you pay for. You were so right to keep the faith. It’s easy for other groups to scoff, but you know what, it takes true courage to put your money where your mouth is, to actually get off your backside and do something, rather than just talking about it. When push comes to shove, you either have to stand for something in this life or you end up standing for nothing. It is always far easier to talk than to do, and you have proven over and over again that when it comes to doing, cabin crew are not afraid. Whatever the outcome tomorrow, we are grateful to you from the bottom of our hearts for the support you have given us thus far; cabin crew have proven to everybody that they have not only the heart but also the wisdom to know when there is no other option but to fight for what is right. XXXX “Believe in yourself And all that you are. Know that there is something inside you That is greater than any obstacle” Christian D Larson. |
Apparently many crew on another forum think this is the best message of the whole dispute! Just another of DH's fairy tales - not a fact in sight.
|
Give Duncan his due, he has managed maintain the support of ~5000 and somehow avoided mass resignations in the ~ 5,000 members who dont support strike action despite earlier demanding they resign. And he hasn't completely omitted facts - he mentioned the PCCC's 200 membership number apparently revealed in Mark Everard's Tribunal - (relevant of course due to the Porn links posted by Mr Everard - a fact DH omitted to mention)
Likely he'll have another "deeply satisfying" ballot result in a few days time to further comment upon. |
I find it amusing that Mark Everard is even trying a tribunal.
Unless of course he is claiming he delegated the creation of the website and had nothing to do with the pr0n. |
DH's latest
It is always far easier to talk than to do, and you have proven over and over again that when it comes to doing, cabin crew are not afraid. Bassa gets thousands to vote on another pointless round of Industrial Action, as I'm sure will happen again today, but far fewer ever take that Industial Action tthat they have voted for. And even fewer of them, turn out at Bedfont to drink Pims and eat samosa's. Bassa members dont have much history of "doing", even its leadership have contended that its all about "sending a message" apparently....? |
As a matter of interest, does anybody have any indication of the costs of running a circa 10000 member postal ballot x 5 ? All this democratic process must be costing quite a bit - and who pays, BASSA or Unite ?
And speaking of democratic consultative processes, given that the members weren't allowed to express their views on BA's last substantive offer, what happened to holding members meetings at the racecourse ? Surely the Exec Committee would want to have a 2-way communication after all that has happened since the last one, given all that has happened, and to seek members' views on a way forward beyond keeping the faith ? |
Hipennine
Here's my uneducated guess:
Cost per member - post 1 BASSA admin 2 3rd party ballot 2 Total 5 That's 50000 per ballot for 10000 members. Minimum 25000, maximum 75000. |
What a surprise....
BA cabin crew are understood to have voted eight to one in favour of strike action. Sky News has reported sources have told it the outcome of the ballot, which raises the prospect of a fresh round of strikes this Easter. Union Unite remains in dispute with BA over the airline’s handling of a dispute last year which led to 22 days of industrial action. About 10,000 members of BA’s 13,000 crew were eligible to vote in what was the fifth ballot organised by trade union Unite in a dispute that has dragged on since 2009. Sky sources say that BA cabin crew have voted by more than eight to one in favour of further industrial action. Some 5,811 Unite members voted yes, sources say, but dates for industrial action have yet to be set. More follows... |
Last Ballot - 7,482 in favour.
|
Last Ballot - 7,482 in favour. |
PCCC have had to disclose in a legal document submitted for Mark Everard’s tribunal case, that they have less than two hundred members |
Sky are now reporting that the 'Yes' vote is 28 higher than last time on an increased turnout. Maybe I'll wait for the official result.
|
If Sky's numbers are correct, the maximum number of votes cast is 6537, which leaves around 3,400 (per DH's missive) who didn't vote.
I'm sorry but that is pathetic. Around 1/3 of BASSA members do not have the wherewithal to have a say in their own futures, and blindly pay subs to BASSA regardless. How can these people be trusted to make safety-critical decisions? |
21 January 2011 - Last invalid vote
British Airways cabin crew members of Unite have voted in support of industrial action by a huge margin. Unite balloted 10,220 cabin crew. They voted as follows on the question “are you prepared to take part in strike action”:
|
PCCC members
I think the 200 number must have arisen at the time of the offense i.e. yonks ago. The tribunal would only be able to ask for numbers at the time of 'porn redirection scam'. Not its business to know the numbers now which are far higher I believe. Highflyer might pop in to help on this one.
|
Maybe the Christmas period influenced a slight dip in the previous ballot?
I wasn't expecting the Yes vote to stay broadly constant. That's a pretty strong hardcore that's not giving in. |
understood to have voted eight to one 5,811 crew voted for strike action, and 1,170 voted against. Turnout was 72% and only four voting papers returned were invalid. Guess it's time for some seriously ridiculous claims from Bassacolytes regarding "8 to 1"..... |
have voted eight to one in favour of strike action?
Simples!
1100 vote NO. Number balloted say 10000 8 x 1100 = 8900 8 to 1 didn't vote no so are in favour of strike action! Ha. It's a gift I have. P.S. As Len says: Of the just under 10,000 crew polled, some 83 per cent of the 6,981 who returned valid voting papers voted yes to strike action.!!!!! As others might say: About 60% of those polled voted yes. This represents roughly 45% of all cabin crew. |
Once again the turkeys have voted for christmas.
HOWEVER They have talked the talk BUT Will they walk the walk? |
Since the last time we were screwed around by BA CC strike, costing us a days holiday, we have sworn that we will not fly BA again until the idiots, on both sides, sort this out.
The idiots, if anything, appear to be more prevalent. I don't care whose fault or who is to blame. My money is going elsewhere, perhaps forever. |
All these ballots were conducted by the Electoral Reform Service
0.0 _ Invalid strike vote 16 November - 14 December 2009
_____________________Total__Yes____No___Spoiled__Not returned Number of ballot papers 12780__ 9514 ___770____2______2494 Percentages__________100%_-_74.0%__6.0%__0.01%___19.5% 1.0 _ Valid strike vote 25 Jan - 22 Feb 2010 _____________________Total__Yes____No___Spoiled__Not returned Number of ballot papers_11691_ 7482 __1789___11______2409 Percentages__________100%_-_64.0%_15.3%__0.1%___20.6% 2.0 _ New Contract offered by BA. reported by the Electoral Reform Service on 20 July 2010 _____________________Total___Yes___No___Spoiled_Not returned Number of ballot papers_11311__1686__3419___3______6203 Percentages__________ 100%_-15.0%_30.2%_-0.03%__54.8% 3.0 _ Flawed Strike Ballot (reported by Unite) 21 December 2010 - 21 January 2011 _____________________Total___Yes___No___Spoiled_Not returned Number of ballot papers_10220__5751__1579___5______2885 Percentages__________ 100%_-56.3%_15.5%_-0.05%__28.2% 4.0 _ Consequential Strike Ballot 1 March - 28 March 2011 _____________________Total___Yes___No___Spoiled_Not returned Number of ballot papers_-9824__5811__1170___4______2839 Percentages__________ 100%_-59.2%_11.9%_-0.04%__28.9% The references for all these ballot numbers are listed at http://w ww.pprune.org/6335650-post123.html |
Money to burn
I won £10 on the National Lottery last Saturday evening.
I could do with a good laugh, so I think I might invest my winnings in buying a copy of the judgment handed down in Duncan Holley's Employment Tribunal appeal. Can anyone tell me where I can obtain same, please? Copyright permitting, I could be persuaded to disseminate the full contents of the judgment here. |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 13:02. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.