@Litebulbs
 

Thank you for the perspective - I understand now.

We could debate about whether it makes sense but thats another subject for another day (perhaps).

Thanks Notlangley....

We've got a domestic to longhaul and back again lined up over the potential strike dates so here's hoping the domestic end holds up...

SLFLurker
 

It appears that's exactly what Holley is trying to do ... damage BA by upsetting passengers, by holding ballots that threaten strikes, but not actually striking ... so that none of the potential strikers get penalised.

If that turns out to be the case, I think BASSA's legal ice might prove very thin.

This does appear to be the case, Holley having stated as much on his 'feeling downhearted" blog, dated 13th February 2011:


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MPN,

I'm sure BA will sort us out so that we are not too disadvantaged. I flew domestic last May (just escaped the ash clouds one way!) and BA rescheduled and the rescheduled again no problem when the strike was called off.

I booked in Nov / Dec fully aware of the dispute but given my experience in May, I have no qualms that BA will sort it - but just could do without the hassle right now - we have a relatively early LH out of LHR so may have to come down the night before.

Can anyone definitely tell me if BA has gone after Unite and secured costs for any of the 'illegal" actions and if so, how much ?

In spite of following the whole saga i haven't caught this .

Thanks

How long to BASSA have in order to call a strike? I Know they have to give 7 days advance notice, but how long does the ballot mandate last?

Regards

I think they have to start the strike within 28 days, so in light of the notice period, they have 21 days to call a strike.

They have 28 days from the date that the ballot result was announced in which to commence strike action, but need to provide BA with 7 days notice of any proposed strike dates. Assuming that the strike action is protected (i.e. it is not seen as a continuation of an existing dispute) the union has a period of 12 weeks in which it can call for strike dates. Thereafter, protect ceases to be in place and any industrial action taking place is not protected. The protection gives employees the right to claim for unfair dismissal if they are sacked solely for taking part in industrial action. It also provides some indemnity for the union.

The problem that Unite face is that the 10 items in their list of grievances include wording that inextricably links this lates ballot with the previous strikes, hence it is likely that any industrial action would be unprotected. Whilst BASSA and co may wish to call strike dates, they are powerless as only the union is able to do that. If Unite feel that in doing so they would open themselves up to substantial legal action, not just from BA but potentially from the membership for not providing the whole truth about the legality of the current situation, they may well back down.

Is there anyone of sufficient legal mind to answer me this?

Mr Holley has admitted himself that BASSA are now resorting to the tactic of merely threatening industrial action in order to deflate forward bookings. Is there legislation to cover, or do BA have any legal recourse to argue, vexatious action ?

To my mind, this is an abuse of the legal entitlement for an employee to take industrial action. How long before this government turn their eye to this abuse and close the loop hole ?

It is not only BA cabin crew whom Mr Holley and his cohorts are sending over the abyss; dare I suggest, he is putting into jeopardy the current freedom and rights of all employees and their current right to exercise their right to strike by opening up the procedure to public and government scrutiny.

Another thought which crossed my mind whilst listening to the Radio 5 live debate; do BASSA members not realise that by realising savings through NF., those NF boys and girls are actually protecting the T & Cs of those on old contracts. Without NF, where would the necessary savings have come from in IFCE? Phone a friend anyone? 50/50? Ask the audience?

Message to the BASSA hardcore: NF is not the bear in the room you all fear. NF will not take your jobs, NF will not affect your T & Cs., NF will not take all your cushy routes and box payments, NF is not responsible for you going one down onboard (incase you have forgotten, that is what this stupid dispute was all about initially), NF will only increase proportionate to the natural decrease in old contract numbers. Get it in your heads, BA had to adjust to survive; you need to too.

Colonel White - in an otherwise excellent posting on the crew-only thread - has written:

Passover this year commences on 18 April 2011, while Easter falls on 25 March 2011.

CCC
I believe you are mistaken. Easter is on April 25th. Passover runs for 7 days commencing on April 19th. :O

Easter was 5 days ago???????

Wheres my easter eggs?

Several interesting comments and questions above, especially from Col White and Stoneybridge.

Much will, of course, hinge on what Unite chooses to say and/or do following the ballot result. They have 3 weeks to make up their minds. The perception of many here and on other forums is that the planned strike[s] will be unprotected, thanks to the 10-point linkage to the previous action. In parallel is Holley's implication that they will not actually do anything, which opens up the vexatious action question.

I suspect that BA's legal people have a variety of pre-prepared folders to address those [and other] issues. :cool:

Meanwhile, as noted on ba.com ...
BA cabin crew dispute 2011 - ballot result - British Airways

There are already some significant provisions in place which permit employers to sue a Union for carrying out industrial action where statutory immunity is not valid (i.e. an unprotected action):

http://www.freshfields.com/publicati...ct10/29082.pdf

The last paragraphs are especially relevant, where BA could sue Unite for up to £250,000, can sue Union representatives individually for organising unprotected pickets, and where individual passengers can sue the Union for losses incurred because of a failure to deliver services as a consequence of unprotected action; I can imagine BA is all over this.

Further backing for the position that Unite is unlikely to authorise any walk-outs.

Agree that Unite won't back a strike. BASSA's members are dead in the water. They can vote but they can't strike. They have no voice at the negotiating table for any purpose.

Accepting, hopefully, that Unite do indeed 'walk away' from the situation ... what happens next?

• Does DH just sit back and do/say nothing? Or just call for another ballot when this one expires? Or embark on some bizarre wild-cat action?
• Will the hard-core BASSA membership ever recognise what's going wrong, listen to FACTS instead of DH's fictions, and do something about introducing some legitimacy and credibility to their Union's position?
• Will BA just implement contingency plans, and watch another round of negative publicity? Or will they start taking robust action against the causes of the problem?
• The majority of BA's employees have already made major concessions, and have shown no inclination to support BASSA's fringe activity. The Public may be slightly concerned, but regular users of BA now know that any strike has little [if any] effect.

Something has got to give, surely?

It’s a difficult conundrum.

The only way I can see it changing is for some of the broader BASSA membership (not the BASSA reps/management) to take an interest in the running of their Union Branch. I wouldn’t be surprised if Unite themselves would be keen to see this happen, either.

The first stage of this is to gain access to the accounts of their own £1.5m+ annual subscriptions, as they are legally entitled to do. Then to look in more detail how the money is disbursed; it’s all perfectly legal I’m sure, but there is always room for improvement and increasing value for money for members.

Having that financial understanding is the first stage to being able to launch a credible, democratic challenge to current ways of doing things, not to “bust BASSA” but to make it stronger and attempt (if that’s possible) to mend its tarnished brand.

BASSA is now a zombie union, with unelected leadership, disconnected from the employees they claim to represent as they no longer work there, no longer involved in any negotiations with BA by dint of BASSA terminating the Facilities Agreement itself, and an active interest in destroying the livelihoods of those they claim to represent in order to exact supposed revenge, as well as an active disinterest in settling, alongside a rather nice stipend as long as this dispute is ongoing.

Thankfully BA realises this, and is carrying on regardless; frankly I rather hope for a proper strike which should flush out the real level of BASSA’s support.

Meanwhile, forward bookings remain strong and my colleagues and I continue to fly BA without any fear of significant disruption.

MPN11 - DH has no authority to call a ballot. This rests with Unite. The slightest hint of any unofficial action will be shot down immediately by Unite.

However, I genuinely don't see a settlement without a change in leadership at BASSA. This may just rumble on and taking the temperature of the response of passengers to Monday's announcement, BA's regular customers are to a very large extent not troubled by the threat of strikes. The ballot announcement also got relatively little media coverage.

Arguably, the neutering of the threat of strikes is something of a watershed. The threat of a strike has in the past been as significant (if not more) than the strikes themselves.

The do nothing option.
 

This is a viable option - something doesn't have to give.

1. Those who haven't signed up to the new contact will find themselves being paid 6-7%% less than those that have in the near future. That's about 20 million in salary costs saved annually.
2. As long as BASSA is disabled (having shot itself in both feet), BA can run its own business. This is extremely valuable, must be a huge relief, and has already allowed BA to plough its own furrow with regard to MF at huge annual savings of 150 million plus. Would BA give this freedom up without a fight? NO!
3. Think of the day-to-day savings associated with not having to deal with a bunch of jobs-worth gob****es, diverting this and invoking that left, right and effing centre - my guess is 25 million annually but it could be double that.
4. Expect a further 'step-drop' in BASSA numbers after this latest ineffectual wet sock of a ballot, and more drifting away as time goes on. All good news for BA.


BA can just wait until BASSA in its current guise is a thing of the past. This year, probably. Next year, certainly. A few Cabin Crew look a bit miserable sometimes. So what?

I agree with you LDnumbers. Neutering of the strike threat is a watershed.

Mon Colonel,

You are quite correct about the date for Easter 2011. My apologies to you (and to Hotel Mode) for the careless error.

However, Passover (like all Jewish festivals) commences on the evening before, i.e. 18 April this year. The Hebrew date for the beginning of Passover is 14 days after the new moon that heralds the month of Nissan.

Passover is observed for seven days in Israel, but for eight days in the Diaspora (like several other Jewish religious holidays). The reason for this anomaly is that, in Biblical times, Jews living outside "the Holy Land" could not be sure of the exact Hebrew date, so the extra day's observance is an insurance policy, if you will.

Best wishes and Hag Sameach (happy festival) from a veteran and confirmed matzah addict!

NB: None of the above implies that I will eschew the consumption of Easter eggs!

mrpony
 

excellent summation of BA's stance to date, I think.

BA have won so much already, whilst BASSA has failed to make any wins so far. This has never been about Union busting... and playing the long game is, as you point out, fiscally to BA's advantage.

Cant help but feel that ghastly behaviour by BA staff, such as the disgusting comparrison by BASSA to Jewish war dead can only be tolerated to a point by BA however... and they can easily change their course and issue 90 day notice for those still not on the new contract.... job done.

... the remaining BASSA members should think through their position very carefully IMHO, actions have consequencies...

A couple of points that I'd disagree with Richard:

"Cant help but feel that ghastly behaviour by BA staff, such as the disgusting comparrison by BASSA to Jewish war dead can only be tolerated to a point by BA however" - can we not tarnish everyone at BA with the same brush. It was a small minority of BA cabin crew who took this disgusting action and not "BA staff" as a whole (or even cabin crew as whole).

"And they can easily change their course and issue 90 day notice for those still not on the new contract.... job done." - BA can't do this selectively so this action would also hit cabin crew who have not voted for strike action. BA would be shooting themselves in the foot with this approach.

I personally thought that BA wouldn't intefere with the last strike ballot and when it went ahead sack strikers on day 1 to effectively end the dispute and rid itself of disruptive crew. The fact they didn't suggests they won't do it now. It looks like they will be happy to take the "do nothing" approach that mr Pony suggests.

LD12986 ... Indeed, and I thought I made the distinction between BASSA and Unite perfectly clear in that respect. Whether the result of this vote is actually 'official' may, of course, be tested again in the Courts.

My question is when, and how, Unite's leadership does something about the BASSA 'loose cannon' ... failing so to do just undermines the entire concept of a decent Trades Union environment.

Is Unite really content to allow this farce to continue, driven by DH and 'others'?
If they are content to sit idly by, it speaks volumes about what Trades Unions may have again become ... a mechanism for dislodging an elected Government, or wrecking Companies from self-interest.
If not, they should DO something.

This has gone too far, and for too long, under the most tenuous of circumstances.
Unite should be working to resolve this [for a change] by forcing, at the very least, proper electoral processes within BASSA ... and entering into adult, responsible discussions with BA [if necessary over the heads of BASSA, even if that is regarded as "imposition"] ;)

Richard228
 

Yes, that Kristallnacht thing might even prove to be a tipping point. There can't be many of the 5700 YES voters who don't find it reprehensible.

I can't think of a single move made by BASSA in recent history that hasn't been self-destructive. It is an exceptional organisation in this respect. If BASSA were a person it would be diagnosed with a mental illness.

Sadly, I don't think it will make any difference whatsoever. The conciliatory gesture by KW in paying bonuses, Unite's incompetence in its handling of the last ballot and not admitting its failings until the last minute made no difference to the yes vote.

Unite rules
 

MPN,

Whilst mccluskey wants Column inches in the media, unite will do little or nothing about bassa. He continues to want column inches in the media to keep up his influence/status/prestige within the Broad Left coalition. Their current campaign is about embarrasing the present Government. (It has nothing whatsoever to do with retaining jobs in the public sector.......believe that and you'll soon see flying pigs).

bassa are already operating way outside Unite's rule book. See Rule 6 about lay officials, and rule 18 about workplace reps. Both insist on elections, at least every 24 months.

"6.5 The electoral period to hold lay office shall be two years unless otherwise provided
for under these rules."

Also, if you really want the anorak prize, go and read rule 17 about Branches. I attach a bit of it below. bassa are way out of these rules.

bassa's other leverage over mccluskey is malone's presence on untie's Executive Council.

Lizanne Malone Region 1 [London, Eastern & South East] Additional Women’s Rep
mccluskey will not want to be told by his executive council that he is not supporting one of the EC members....

By the way, note that malone is a Region 1 rep. Getting in as a Region 1 rep suggests that she's got some high quality contacts in untie. The Civil Aviation rep is Sean Beatty. (whoever)

Bits of rule 17
17.3 Branches shall have direct access to a proportion of membership subscriptions. Such a
proportion and access arrangements to be determined by the Executive Council, and
may be conditional on performed compliance with financial reporting requirements.
These funds may be used to meet the cost of administering the Branch; for recruitment
and other campaigns approved by the Executive Council; for local affiliations; to assist
members or their dependants who have suffered misfortune; or for any other worthy
cause, subject to any provisions elsewhere in these rules, and that no general
purposes funds shall be used for political objects. Any payments made in connection
with any form of industrial action must be made strictly in line with Executive Council
guidance applicable at the time.
17.4 All the property of the Branch including the books and other effects of the Branch, shall
be the property of the Union and shall, on request by the Executive Council, be
produced for inspection and audit. In the event of a closure, merger or dissolution of the
Branch, all property of the Branch shall be dealt with as directed by the Regional
Committee subject to the overall control of the Executive Council.
17.5 The Regional Committee shall be required to ensure that each Branch meets at regular
intervals and operates in accordance with the standing orders provided for in clause 10
of this rule. Where a Branch fails to convene an Annual General Meeting of all
22
members that Branch shall be suspended and members of the Branch shall be
allocated to a Branch which meets subject to the right of the Branch to appeal to the
Executive Council.

Thanks, AO ... perhaps the rest of the Planet should start flagging this sh1 t up to the Media?

There must be some Right Wing outfit that would appreciate some Mail on the subject? ;)

oh no........
 

AO - "public sector.......believe that and you'll soon see flying pigs"

blast, does that mean the price of bacon will be going up with everything else???

Dishing the dirt
 

Churchinchow re your request of the 28th re tribunal judgement:

Employment Tribunal Field Support Office
1st Floor
100 Southgate Street
Bury St Edmonds IP33 2AQ

Tel 0845 795 9775 to check current prices. You have to apply by post or in person.

Enjoy!!

Hi LCD how's it going

There is a lot of discussion on the other thread about some vandalism on an aircraft that led to a number of dismissals.
If this was the one in Japan, from the information I got at the time there is absolutely no doubt it was a member of crew that was the culprit.

McCluskey has stated he is at the whim of the democratically elected Union/BASSA membership, and will only take action if they want it.

That is why the issue of access to the BASSA accounts, and challenging the electoral process is so important. It's a matter for BASSA members to bring about change from within; trouble is there doesn't seem to be anyone brave enough to stick their head above the parapet and risk the bullying and victimisation which would inevitably ensue. Can't say I blame them, really.

And the individual who most encapsulates BASSA has an "unfortunate event", not to say a mental breakdown, last night on another forum (he is alleged to be HUW):

CabinCrew.com: BASSA militant exposed!

This was my favourite bit, when I think the G&Ts really kicked in:

I had never heard the phrase "spineless masturbator" before; I will have to drop it into conversation, though one would think that if you masturbated a lot, being spineless might not be such a disadvantage :8

That Cabin Crew.com link has to be the most revealing insight into a man that is in need of some psychiatric treatment.

It is indicative of Holley who has no ability to hold any kind of conversation. His bitterness is truly illuminating and his angst is in the upper bracket of lost control. Sadly it also shows that BASSA as a whole is a lost cause.

The question has to be how long will Unite support BASSA - especially after a reps terrible use of 'KristalNacht' on Victoria Derbyshire's show yesterday. It suggested in the strongest terms that BASSA is anti-semitic.

I'm sure within Unite's rules there is something about members bringing the union into disrepute!

Hi Westlakes I'm good thank you :ok:

Due to take a BA flight soon so thourght I'd look in.

Some very entertaining stuff on here this evening courtesy of the other forum!!

Anyway I'm off to Vegas soon a new MF route. Any comments from those of you who might have been on an MFflight?

Not MF but LGW to MJB. If MF are half as good it will be excellent

That thread is proof, not that it was required, that there is absolutely no prospect of a settlement whilst he is calling the shots at BASSA.

Imagine what he must be like in meetings!

Um... without wishing to pour cold water on anyone, the cabincrew forum is, like Pprune, populated by posts from individuals operating under pseudonyms. There is absolutely nothing to say that the individual who clearly lost it in spades on the thread in question was Mr Holley, although various members on that forum seem to have suggested otherwise. It is pure speculation.

That said, the outburst by the individual in question was completely out of order. Had it taken place on Pprune I feel certain that the mods would not only have pulled the posts, but also pulled the plug on the id that posted them. Clearly the OP in the thread touched a very raw nerve for someone. Given the anonymity of forums I did wonder if the individual who went into such a public tirade of abuse might have been closely related to the people in the article.

They did pull the thread and put him in the cooler for a while.

It's because your average BASSA member (of the 5700) is pretty low down on the intelligence scale, combined with an arrogant manner derived from being told for decades that they're wonderful (if we're talking mastubatory frenzies, surely nothing can compare with the "the best crew in the world" circle-jerk that existed in IFCE in the first decade of the 21st Century?)

So they throw around phrases like Kristallnacht or use images of Iwo Jima because they think it makes them look wordly and wise, without realising how deeply offensive it is to link those events with an industrial dispute that can be summed with in the phrase "too posh to push."