Bing-bong "This is your captain/flight attendant/whoever..."
 

The BA strike raises an interesting question. Is it time for a root and branch change to the time-honoured rituals performed by flight-deck and cabin crew before they just get on with what they're supposed to do and take us where we've paid to go?
Why are we passengers constantly talked at and bonged at ?
Why do cabin crew and flight crew love the sound of their own dreary voices so much?
Why are we instructed to do this and do that and "wait until the seat belt sign is extinguished", and all the rest of this ritual of rubbish we have to put up with day after day.
I don't want to watch another lifejacket demonstration. I think I've got the idea now.
I don't want to be told how to fasten my seat belt - it's blindingly obvious.
I don't need to be reminded to read the safety card - we know how to evacuate the aircraft - in reality it's every man for himself and the devil take the hindmost.
...And I really don't give a damn what the name is of the captain of the plane - any more than I care who the driver is of my intercity train.
So why don't the cabin crew and flight crew do us all a favour and shut up?

I'm a Captain. I've been doing this job for quite a while now.
When I sit in the back, the cabin crew have my undivided attention for the duration of the safety brief.
What makes you think YOU are special? :ugh:

We'd love to, but as long as there's a risk of passengers (or relatives)wheeling out the lawyers every time they're involved an accident or incident and claiming they were stressed, injured or killed because of a lack of information I guess you stuck with it.....you've only got yourselves to blame.

Oh really - Are all airlines' lifejackets the same?

Follow your own advice.

'elf n safety for much of it, courtesy for some of it and sales revenue for a bit of it.

Sorry you find the interuptions and instructions so tedious, but you have to remember not everyone is as intelligent as you and many people are actually interested in where they are and whats going on.

SO, whilst it would be quite amusing to let you get on with it and do what you want when you want, it'll only happen when you waive all rights to sue because you've done something stupid and hurt yourself.

Sorry you've had such a bad day, but don't take it out on the crew....:ouch:

Ouch....
 

Corol raises an issue which as an SOP generates immediate knee jerk reactions from busdrivers and cc alike....

Perhaps it IS time for a debate on how to ensure in the best way to inform passengers on what to do, and just maybe we will end up again with the same briefings, who knows, but let's discuss it, without bashing the SLF on the head....

There are fab examples of great briefings (find them on Youtube!) but as all regular fliers know, there are much more awful examples of completely incomprehensible, utterly bored, disinterested going through the ropes briefings.

The psychology of crowds and crowds in confined spaces is worth a study. Even with a briefing surprisingly few passengers will look around for the nearest exit, as do few rock fans in an arena, so there is a need for some information being fed to the passengers.

Perhaps the videos some planes now carry are better?

a humble SLF

@ Korrol

Remember the first time you flew? I bet you paid attention and watched all the demo's then. Just imagine that out of the 200-300 people on the aircraft with you, there's bound to be someone flying for the first time who wants and needs to witness the demo's and be told that there's an info card in the seat pocket for them to read. Not to mention that different aircraft and different airlines have different procedures. If your ever involved in an incident i bet you'll see the worth of all this incovenience. The minute we start taking safety for granted is the very time an accident occurs. :=

also @ Korrol,

A special seat is always available for those "special people" who don't wish to avail themselves of the PA's and Safety Briefings etc. - please ask on entering the a/c and i'm sure the crew will happily arrange for you to be seated on the wing of the a/c, if they're feeling especially helpful, a seat in the cargo hold may be preferable for you - note to flight deck - heat off please !

:E

ah, know it all pax eh.....gotta love 'em

In some aircraft the life jackets are no longer under the seats but are stowed in the overhead with the lights, air con blowers and O2 masks. Worth listening to the briefing and finding out which applies on your flights don't you think? Speakimg as someone who has been SLF for over 50 years and always listens to the briefing - no reason not to!

There are also different models of life jacket, some have clips/straps to secure them and have long tapes to tie at the side. Again, worth knowing before the water laps round your ankles!

You'd like to think so wouldn't you? I had a pax just a couple of months ago that had tied the ends of his belt up in a rather loose single knot instead of using the buckle

Surely this is blindingly obvious. Again, I had another incident whereby we had just got off of the ground and one of the pax decided to stand up to get his bag out of the locker however as we were still climbing at a very steep rate, said muppet got taken unaware by a change in attitude from the climb and ended up falling to the floor with his head missing the headrest by mere centimetres

For a start it's actually a safety demonstration . It contains a lot more than just the lifejackets. Anyhow, there is an airline that operates out of your local airport (assuming your residence is that of what it states as your location) that actually uses 2 types of lifejacket. How are you going to know which variety it is without this demonstration

Maybe some airlines and certain crew members in both sections of the aircraft that do like their own voices but you'll get those sort of people all over the place. It does however seem that you have overlooked a few points and there are real reasons why things are said and done and even YOU should still watch the safety demo

Safe flying

I'm a passenger.

Maybe there are several slightly different subjects here.

I have no problem with the safety demonstration. I've flown on all sorts of aircraft and even when they are (nominally) the same (think Boeing 737) there are a number of detail differences that I like to know about. Quite apart from differences in the base airframe, airline fit can make a difference to your escape routes.

Then there are what I'll call the "en route safety annoucements". Things like "We think we're going to encounter turbulence ....." and "we're beginning our approach.....". I consider them in the same vein as the safety briefing. Some airlines seem to be ultra cautious and spew them out with monotonous frequency while others are more relaxed but that's life.

The ones I do sometimes get frustrated by are the various service announcements. Are there people who like the sound of their own voice? Possibly. But I'm inclined to feel that much of what comes in the form of service announcements is "company policy" (there must be a welcome from the flight deck - I remember one pilot telling me he was sent on a training course so that he could deliver the message the way the company wanted) or "government requirement" (e.g. "we're going to hand out immigration forms") and some airlines look upon such announcements as an advertising or revenue opportunity whilst others take a more informational view. I've never been totally pi..ed off by such announcements but occasionally I find myself wishing they wouldn't be quite so long winded.

So, korrol, if you don't like the annoucements write to the airline and tell them which ones you think they should stop and why.

I think it's a cool thing to get bored by the sight of a boring ritual, but after all it is a "ritual" and has to be done perfectly for everyone's sake on that plane. I don't even think the flight attendants enjoy themselves while showing how to fasten seat belts and the captain loves the sweet melody of his voice.Some info must be given to passengers,it's not a simple bus trip ,come on!

And finally this post with this title can get no sympathy from the cockpit and cabin crew.

At the risk of taking the thread off at a tangent, why is this? Is it just a psychological "I came in that door, so that is the only door I can leave through?" issue if exposed to the stress in an evac situation?
I'd expect that the first-time fliers would respond to the request to "look for your nearest exit which may be behind you" as it was a new and unknown situation and they are paying attention. At the other extreme, I'd expect that the regular fliers would have a quick glance as they know the drill and would want to have an idea where said exit was.

I appreciate that I'm not normal in these regards (some friends might say in any regards :}) as although I'm not a particularly frequent flier compared to some here, I ensure that I keep in my pockets the essential stuff I'd like to go down the slide with.

(The original thread moved whilst I was typing this - and I appreciate the comments re: the original question - but there is potentially an interesting human factors discussion here. Maybe... Perhaps...)

Paul.

I'm not entirely sure that korrol is not trolling us. I'll pretend he's not, because all the long of my career I've heard presumptuous passengers thinking they know all (infallibility), they don't have anything to learn from others (egocentrism), nothing's gonna happen to them (invulnerability), so why should they change? (rigidity).

As you see these attitudes are well known and have all been studied. Their result is invariably someone getting hurt sooner or later. In the past, before the Human Factors breakthrough, even people working for the airlines used to think that way, and procedures were designed with enormous flaws in them. When accidents happened, they were consequently studied and corrections could be made. We still learn from incidents and accidents, fine tuning our knowledge of how the human mind works in certain situations and environments. Because this is the point. Understanding how our mind works, because in a situation of emergency we cannot trust it unless we know how not to fall in all the traps laying in front of us. Our reactions have been designed in thousands and thousands years to respond to situations arising in our environment at the times. Which means, not in airplanes, not in skyscrapers or such. Today, there are high chances you'll get yourself killed if someone doesn't point you to the right actions to take. Crews are taught how to direct people into doing the right thing, through knowledge of their environment, procedures and Crowd Control techniques.

What is very important to understand, is that if you are not a professional in our industry, you are very likely to be extremely ignorant without having even the slightest clue how ignorant you are about how it works and why it works that way.

It would be too long to expand here, but for those interested about the subject, I suggest a book that is very easy to understand even for the layman, and very enjoyable. It is called The Untinkable, by Amanda Ripley.

I have worked for over 10 years in crowd management.

Years ago many people died in a ballroom in Belgium. Fire had broken out and people finally tried to leave the way they came in, many did not make it.

What a shame, the ballroom was on the ground floor and there were many windows....:ugh:

There are countless stories like that. People have a false sense of security in a plane or in an arena and so drop their guard. When the :mad: hits the fan it's too late, they'll head for the door they came in through.

Only pointing out the other exits helps.

Maybe it's time to perform phsychiatric testing on potential passengers to see if they are fit to fly as passengers. I'm SLF and have flown very regularly in the past, and only aboout 4 return journeys per year now, but I have yet to hear an unnecessary broadcast by a member of the Flight Crew. Safety first, especially in an unfamiliar environment

Dear Korrol,
 

I think you'll find that it's legislated/written in regulations that the Cabin Crew make those demonstrations.

Much like other signs, literature, etc in society, everyone has to cater to the "lowest common denominator".

As someone else mentioned, there are many people on most flights that ARE interested in where they are, how long to go, the weather etc.

You're probably that person that continues to talk on your mobile phone after doors closed, even though it's been said several times to turn it off. But I suppose YOUR call is THE most important.

The Darkness

Cart before the horse?
 

No comment on the OP's post but;

I just watched four BA videos, over the last 11 days on two Aircraft types. (A&B).

Why is the bit about having the your hand baggage in the locker or under your seat, towards the end of the video? We were already taxiing by the time we saw that, and (correct me if I'm wrong) we aren't suppose to taxi if all pax's baggage hasn't been stowed.

Same with the seatbelt bit - we're already rolling, so isn't this a bit late?

Realise that the video (or non-video) demonstration could be done before pushback, but that isn't the norm these days. So why tell us afterwards what we should have done previously?

Also realise that it's probably not permitted by the CAA's version of 'elf and safety, but why not show that video at the gate? Sure beats that awful Sky-News stuff. And it would inform us of what we are supposed to do before we do it, not after.

Interesting point Hamish. Stress is quite common in passengers, especially if something is happening that they don't understand. And believe me, this even covers a lot of normal stuff that happens in an aircraft but that is perceived as worrying and subsequently stressing by a large number (hydraulic pumps noise, change of levels in flight, etc). And when people are stressed there are more chances they'll do something not very clever and not adapted to the actual situation.

There are three main factors of stress, whic are 1)facing an unknown situation 2) Not knowing how it is evolving and how it's gonna last 3) Not being able to take action.

Information from the crew stops the mechanism of stress, simply by explaining 1) what the present situationis is, 2)how it is likely gonna last and what is being done to solve it 3) that you can help by doing nothing and let the crew do whatever they're doing and not divert their attention from their tasks.
What might seem "simple" announcements, actually are Crowd Control at work :)

Oh Dear Korrol! The tone of your post suggests to me that you are both impatient and intolerant, but seeing yourself as an "expert" frequent flier you should not be subject to a number of sensible - nay essential - safety briefings which are devised to ensure that EVERYONE on the aircraft knows what to do in normal and emergency circumstances,

Now, as I'm over 70 and with some experience of air travel I listen carefully every time, as every a/c is different. My "experience" started in 1951 and I'm still a frequent flier. (First outing was in 1951 LHR to Singapore in a BOAC Constellation and return in an Argonaut. Later for 30 years averaged about 150 sectors a years thru' most of Europe, Asia, Japan, South and North America in everything from 707s, Tridents, DC9s, 727s, 73s, 74s, 75s, 77s, a couple of Concordes across the pond, etc, etc etc).

I still listen EVERY time! Not least because every carrier can be different. And the last thing I want is some T????R who thinks he knows it all getting in the way when I need to get out in an emergency!

So - shut up and listen for everyone else's benefit even if you do "know-it-all".

Perhaps you are a troll......

No.

13Alpha

If you're a PPL like your profile says then I hope you give your passengers a safety breifing before showing off your flying "abilities", which I hope aren't the same as your IGNORANCE.

If you don't want to listen to my cabin crew give IMPORTANT safety information, or don't want to listen to me advising of turbulence and my welcome message, THEN DO NOT GET ON MY FLIGHT.

I don't want to fly people around that think they know it all... I want everyone, that boards my aircraft, to be made fully aware of all safety information. Until you have a sensible attitude towards safety do not bother getting on any my flights.

SHG.

I'm just surprised that any of you bothered to answer this idiotic thread. Had the post remained at 0 replies the O/P would have got the message loud and clear. You've made him happy instead.

It's been a while since I flew in the UK under CAA regs (been in the USA for six years) but it was my interpretation that whatever craft you fly, it's up to the PIC to ensure that a safety brief is carried out. Here in the US, you have to make pax aware of the seat belt operation and exits/methods of egress.

In the case of an airline, the safety brief is delegated to the cabin crew - but it's mandatory to my understanding.

I always try to pay attention during the briefing (even though I've heard it many times before). It's just being respectful of the crew who are trying to do their job.

What always amuses me are the people who settle in and remove their shoes straight away.... they've obviously never considered that they might need them on to get over broken bits of aircraft (that may be on fire) in a takeoff emergency.

John.

The answer isn't to get rid of the safety bits at the beginning - just to make them fun to watch and informative.

Air NZ got the balance right for their domestic briefing:

If the OP does not like the various messsages broadcast in the course of a commercial flight he/she could remember what they say here in Jersey:

"There is always a boat in the morning"!

Korrol as you have been a member of PPRuNe for 15 months, I must presume that you have read the FAQs and searched for previous threads of this topic?

Your profile states that, as well as being PPL, you work as a 'Manager'. When you are being a passenger/customer of an airline, they are Managing you. All of the crew manage the whole flight, hardware, software and the pink squidgy-ware that have asked to be transported from A to B.

When you are managing people, you do so with a number of reasons, what your own manager tells you to do, what any regulatory authority tells you (fire precautions etc.) and then your own wealth of experience in the job. That experience will tell you what the majority of your customers are like and the kind of guidance they need. Unless, of course, you only manage THINGS and not people.

Lastly, just because flying is statistically so safe, ask the families of the folks on these flights - all details from the main R&N forum:

• Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
• AF 447 (OK, no survivors but there might have been)
• Air India Express B738
• BA038 (B777)
• Cockpit Fire Diverts UA 757 to IAD

Korrol is clearly a troll... :hmm:

I hope that Korrol is a troll but the thread is still useful for future enquiries of a similar nature!

A former US Secretary of Defense once said (although in an entirely different context)
His words were widely mocked as gibberish at the time IIRC - mainly by journalists - you know - those people whose business is words! - but I've found it to be a good philosophy to live by in my life.
It may happen that one day, right after that bing-bong, you get to know something you didn't know you didn't know....and it could possibly save your life in a sticky situation.

Of course there are good reasons for the safety announcements, but the OP has raised a valid issue. Are the current proceedures the best way to do them - as has been pointed out many people just ignore them because they are so repetitive, its shouldn't be impossible to improve the system.

Most don't. In fact it is often something of a nuisance to have to address passengers when the very short interval between the last of them boarding, and the completion of checks, is all constrained by the need to get the aircraft moving in order to comply with slots, and avoid lengthy delays that inconvenience everybody. However there are legal requirements that fall to the captain of a flight and in turn to the crew to ensure that passengers are properly and adequately briefed. It would be quicker to say, "listen carefully because your life might depend on this in a few minutes." However it is deemed more sensible to adopt a low key, more professional, and courteous approach. Whether you like it or not, and that takes a little more time.

Because the regulatory authority places a a statutory requirement on us to ensure that these things are both briefed and complied with. In addition it also provides us with the necessary defence to your potential legal counsels claims of negligence when you subsequently suffer loss or injury by failing to comply with these requirements.

No, I don't want to have to deliver another take off safety briefing to my co-pilot, but I do. The reason is, because it refreshes information that needs to be in the short term memory in the event of an emergency. You might be surprised to learn that the biggest single impediment to evacuation is people failing to release their seatbelts. Why, if it so blindingly obvious? The answer is, that in times of severe stress the brain adopts a survival (fight or flight) mode. During that time it tends to shut down superficial reasoning and memory. This results in primary reaction relying on what is in the short term memory (hence the pre-flight briefing) and what is deeply instinctive. In the case of the latter, what is instinctive to most people regarding seatbelts, are the ones they have in their cars. They fasten at the side of the seat, which is where poorly briefed people will often spend an inordinate amount of time looking for the release. It is therefore important that the short term memory is effective in overriding the instinctive response, and this is best achieved by a briefing shortly before the event, that is listened to and understood.

As for lifejackets, in my company we have 6 different types of lifejacket. Some are specifically for adults, some for children, some for both adults and children and some for infants. It is crucially important that you know when and when not to inflate them. Likewise where to find them. Again this needs to be ingrained in your short term memory, not remembered vaguely from your last flight.

Well, those of us that practice it on a regular basis, know that every evacuation is likely to be different and that we can never know how an aircraft will actually be evacuated until that actual emergency occurs. However if you search youtube, I am sure you will find plenty of videos of real evacuations where the "know it all -yawn" passenger has decided to evacuate with his luggage, which then spills at the bottom of the slide and impedes the exit path. You know how to evacuate the aircraft, means you have re-briefed yourself (the safety card) and watched and listened prior to take off.

Clutching his briefcase no doubt! In fact an effective evacuation requires common sense, teamwork, and informed people. Teamwork isn't just from the crew, it comes from the passengers as well. Obviously they don't spend days every year practicing and testing these procedures, so it is important that they have a short term memory refresher, and basic knowledge prior to every take-off. What you have described is likely to result in additional casualities, and is the likely result of the selfish ill informed and poorly briefed individual.

Great, because we don't want a Christmas card from you. We just want you to listen and try and contribute to the overall safety of the operation. In order to comply with the legislative requirement of our charges, we have to communicate. That can't be done by shutting up. Communication is the key tool to safety in our profession and if we fail to provide the best level of safety that is practical, we are not doing you a favour at all.

I realize that your post is so ill informed, selfish and moronic in content, that it must have been made simply to elicit the predicted response. Nevertheless it is a good springboard for reminding people why we do these seemingly repetitive communications, and why they are so important. Obviously the vast majority of passengers already know much of this, but like yourself there is always the odd one that doesn't.

Whilst it is clearly tempting to say that you can adopt your own stance and burn in your seat for all anyone cares, the truth is that we are all charged with a moral and legal responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen. Likewise none of us would want to live with the thought that somebody had needlessly perished on our flight, even if they were selfish or a complete moron!

(Bing-Bong!)

Despite the tone of the OP, I think it has usefully raised the question of how best to get safety information to passengers. I try hard to listen to the safety briefing, but the modern airport experience tends to turn my brain to cream cheese, so I find I do sometimes miss bits.

Bealzebub said
This is a tough one. A low key approach full of euphemisms ('in the unlikely event of a landing over water') will prevent panic amongst the passengers in relation to a very unlikely event. But it doesn't give people a reason to pay attention. Scaring the bejaysus out of them - 'if the plane crashes, we'd like to help get as many of you out alive as possible' - might just get some attention.

Or perhaps airlines need to find some way of getting passengers involved in the process. How about a scratchcard with the locations of the emergency exits on, with one winner per flight?

Korrol..PPL..Likes flying and sailing and is a manager. Are you any good at any of the those things? Do you perform checklists thoroughly, have you read the manual for your aircraft type (more than once perhaps?), keep up to date with the constantly changing notams etc, do you wear a lifejacket whilst sailing and perhaps brief your crew/passengers on safety and as a manager do you keep your staff constantly informed of whats going on?...It wouldn't seem so with the nature of your comments.

The reason that things are done at the times that they are, such as the emergency briefing on board instead of in the lounge allows for last minute passengers to be included, also that it is the Captains responsibility to have that information on safety passed to the passengers before take-off. His responsibility to the passengers begins when he is on board and finally when the doors close.

As has been mentioned it is a constant battle to keep passengers in the safety loop as it seems that short term memory is stowed with the baggage for example the passenger getting out of his seat atan unsafe/inappropriate time, also happens just before touchdown! Perhaps you may say that this is best left to the passenegrs own initiative but litigation gets in the way so CYA! and prevent injury to others by these unconsidered actions.

If there are too may service announcements, and I admit that sometimes there may be, let the company know in writing otherwise they are unaware and nothing gets changed.

It appears that the OP just doesn't give a toss for anyone elses responsibilities just 'don't tell me anything, I know it all and can't be a£$ed understanding or conforming'. Unfortunately aviation isn't like that. :rolleyes:

Apologies
 

Just for everyone to know, I'm no troll - in fact I'm not even sure I know what the term means.

I initiated this discussion because I'd just got off a short over-water flight with my ears ringing from the proliferation of live and pre-recorded cabin crew and flight crew announcements emanating from the loudspeaker above my head.

Of course I understand that the safety stuff is a statutory requirement but remember we SLF have already suffered a barrage of announcements and instructions inside the airport before even boarding the plane. The final one on landing enjoining us to "fly again" with the airline is often the last straw. Yesterday, if I had actually waited "until the seat-belt sign is extinguished" I'd still be on the damn plane . As it was I was the last one off . Everyone else had disembarked but it was never turned off .

Anyway I've written separately to TightSlot because, if I have overstepped the boundaries of what's permissible here, I wanted to apologise. It's his thread and his house and we are just guests - so it's entirely right he should expect us to abide by his rules and apologise if, occasionally, we overstep the mark. Sorry if I offended anyone and thanks for your most interesting comments.

Excerpt from an inflight briefing I haven’t heard yet
 

‘Since this is an overland flight this aircraft does not carry life jackets, thereby saving weight, fuel, cost and environmental impact. It also allows us to shorten this safety briefing, to your benefit as well as ours’

I am a semi regular flyer and as of yet giving a smartly dressed attractive young lady my undivided attention for a few minutes at the beginning of a flight has yet to become a chore (slightly non PC answer I know but honest)

Korrol Your reply is appreciated. :ok: For future info:

Wikipedia: Troll (Internet), an internet term for a person who wilfully, through obscene, offensive or hateful actions (a.k.a. "trolling"), attempts to disrupt a community or garner reactions, attention and controversy.