I flew on BA yesterday to Nice. Found it very annoying that two of the suited business class pax were busy talking to each other all through the safety demo, and paying no attention at all. Like several others here, I always pay attention - it's only polite. But the kid dropping the rabbit every time on the BA video is annoying - instead of picking it up, she should bash the little b***** round the ear!

I have flown over 1,000 legs over the years and the only time the safety announcement bothers me is when I cannot hear it due to a shoddy PA system. If I cannot hear the safety announcement, how could I be expected to hear if an emergency arose? I was reminded how even my subconscious is listening when on the 4th leg of a flight from Denver to somewhere in Montana a flight attendent (who had to go through the same saftey statement despite loading no new passengers at the last stop) came on and suggested we look out at dotted row of lights we were flying over marking the Wyoming Montana border. Darned if I didn't fall for it and look out the window before realizing the joke and throwing my plastic glass at the attendent. If the safety announcement bothers you, find another form of transportation - walk, swim, whatever.

Korrol you did come across as attacking CC and flight deck in your post and there is no doubt about that. You also came across as ignorant and arrogant in relation to safety.....not a good perception on these forums :uhoh:

However PPrune is somewhere I often let off steam because, as CC, I'm actually not allowed to do it onboard however bad my sector/day is. To me PPrune a safe place....

Sometimes my fingers representing my mouth on here are in motion long before my brain is fully engaged :eek: I too have been accused of "trollling" because of this. Thanks to Paxboy here for also informing me of what this term actually means means :ok:

A perspective for you from the other side as I see you are located in BRS and did a short flight......you may have done this with my mob.

Our Captains, without exception, want to get the SLF safely from A to B so to that end they will introduce the flightcrew by name and then remind you Guys of the importance of listening to the CC safety brief. If something comes up during flight they will then reinforce this i.e turbulence. Despite this we still see the muppets who think they not only know better than the CC but also the Captain!! := The company will therefore cover it's back against said muppetts I'm afraid by repeated safety announcements.

I do sypathise with you re the sales announcements however.....they are never ending and as CC if we don't do them to increase ancillary revenue a highly paid mystery shopper who may be on board will report us to our management and as the SCCM I will be called in for a "chat" with management.

The FR ones are the worst.....that damn fanfare :ugh:

Write to the airline if you are dissatisfied.

Sympathy
 

I must admit I have some sympathy with Korrol - I fly a lot with the Low Cost Carriers and you are bombarded with anouncements:

• buy our alcoholic shots
• buy our scratch cards
• buy our train tickets
• buy our imitation cigarettes
• coming through the cabin with duty free
• coming through the cabin with food and drink
• coming through the cabin with rubbish collection

It goes on and on ..... and then Tarrrraaaaaahhhhhh - we have arrived ahead of schedule......

I now plug my headphones into the IPOD after the safety briefing and keep my seat belt fastened and my eyes closed.

As an aside - a few years ago I flew from Stansted to Manchester on Air Berlin - the safety announcement was in German and not repeated in English. Now I know this was a German carrier buy it was on a UK domestic route - was this Legal?

bizdev

That surprises me. I fly Air Berlin (on non-UK) routes and have always heard all announcements in German and English, including anything the Captain or F/O had to say. Additionally, a taped announcement is made in the language of the destination/departure country. What may have thrown you is that where the safety briefing is made they tend to make it progressively in both languages.

I had a pal who years ago flew on an Air France flight (might have been Air Inter, but in any case it was the national carrier) from Strasbourg to Paris, it was operated by a Monarch wet-lease and all announcements were in English only.

I bet that went down well with Chauvin's compatiots.

Avman
 

Although I'm SLF I am also a Licenced Aircraft Engineer so I am always very observant of Airline operations - especially when I fly with a carrier that I had not flown before with.

I had not flown with Air Berlin before and have not done so since, but I am 100% sure that the safety briefing was only in German (pre-recorded if I recall) and not repeated in English. I cannot remember the flight deck anouncements.
Must have been an oversight? :confused:

bizdev

Guys the safety demo is legally required to be given in the language of the aircraft's registration. So if it's Air Berlin it will be given in German (wherever they are) and if it a Monarch plane it will be given in english and so it goes on....

That said most loco's who are officially "pan european" carriers will also do an announcement in the languages applicable to that flight also....time permitting.

At my lot the foreign tape is usually played whilst the doors are armed prior to push back and the english ones with the actions on pushback/taxi at LGW.

This may be modified downroute if we have a short taxi. We have to give an english demo wherever we are :ok:

lowcostdolly
 

Thanks for the clarification although I am somewhat supprised that the legal requirement is only for the country of registration. As this was an internal UK flight then clearly the safety briefing would have only reached those that could understand German - how can that be safe?

bizdev

Bizdev I asked exactly the same thing on one of my SEP courses as I totally know what you mean here.

The answer given to me here was along the lines of

if you choose that carrier then it is assumed you understand the language of that carrier.

I'm not sure if that is the view of ICAO or of that individual trainer at the time. :hmm: I do know this is the legal position though.

My own personal view is that english (however lazy we undoubtably are) is the official and universal language of aviation so we should all be delivering a brief in this language wherever our airline is registered as well as the native language of the countries concerned. To me that would be best practice.

I don't suppose ICAO care what LCD thinks though!

I like the announcements from the flight deck because it reassures me someone up the front is awake... ;)

Safety briefing
 

Indeed, I am a frequent flyer. Used to travel shorthaul once a week for 2 years, and long haul every few months.
Every single time I paid (and still do) full attention to the safety briefing and ALWAYS checked nearest exit, even counted the rows of seats in each direction. Why would anyone think they know it all regardless of how many times they have flown.
I did always join in the with BMi briefing though "place each hand behind your head, put your head on the back of the seat in front of you (or whatever the words).................and kiss your a*se goodbye"!!

On one flight the CC member who did the briefing made me laugh, he started it by saying
"I am about to do the safety briefing, please all put yoru newspapers down, give me your full attention and don't make out you know it all. To ensure your attention I shall be asking questions about it after I finsh and the winner gets a complimentary breakfast.......................the loser gets two breakfasts"!
We, as SLF (God I hate that phrase) want to be treated with respect by the CC on board, so we should give them the respect they deserve as well.

Octopussy 2
 

I prefer the quiet type. I think that the Captain/First Officer who gives us a 10min lecture on where we are heading, how high, how fast etc is new to the job and is trying to impress. The ones who say nothing are the ones to trust and just want to get home.

Compleatly wrong of course and no offence intended:\

I saw in the CC forum that someone asked why we need cabin crew at all? and of course was quickly shot down and I thin banned.

I think it is however an interesting question.

The post mentione dthe analogy with a train, Euorostar, which can carry 800 passengers at 200 mph 3 feet off the ground. The train has no cabin crew at all so why do we actually need the on the a/c.

The response will be it is for safety, which is no dpubt true. Likewise it could be argued that the train would be safer if ot had 1CC to very 50 Pax that get sreferred to here quite a lot.

So we should examine why we need them on the plane but not on the train?

From a safety perspective are we saying planes are less safe than trains?

Ignoring General Aviation it would appear that the statitics show that planes are a safer place to be yet we seem insistent on overpopulating the a/c with CC.

Can someone please explain why? I mean what is it exactly about planes that requires CC to look after our safety.

Rob,

Certainly your point of view. Interestingly we get more complaints about not saying enough in this regard. Cabin crew will often tell us that people are asking where we are, etc.

I don't think it is a case of pilots being "new to the job", or necessarily "trying to impress." I do sometimes remind new pilots that they are carrying people, and it is important to communicate and within the limitations, interact with those passengers. It may not be to everybodies liking, but communication is an important tool, and how it is employed varies depending on the recepient. ATC, the cabin crew, the passengers etc. It is therefore important that it is practiced and employed in a frequent and sensible manner.

Given the constraints of security, time, etc. It is often difficult to use the communication tool as effectively or productively as you might always like, but nevertheless it is important that it is employed. Of course communication used properly is one of the primary components of "trust" so its absence can't really be used to imply anything particularly positive in this regard. A safe, regular and relaxed flight is what everybody wants from any journey, and the communication employed should be used to that end.

Jipperty,

Every Eurostar train I have ever been on, do have (cabin) crew on board. However passenger carrying commercial transport aircraft have legislative constraints placed upon them regarding the conveyance of passengers. The difference in the nature and environment of the operation means that aircraft passengers are required to have seat belts fastened at various times, and to be briefed at various points in the operation. The legal requirement for this compliance falls to the aircraft commander. Obviously it is impractical for the commander to ensure this compliance, so it falls to the required cabin crew to instruct, ensure and report that compliance.

Jipperty
I expect you will get a number of answers to this question, but I'll just give you one example. In my career, I've investigated two accidents on trains, both of them involved passengers who (late in the evening) decided to get off the train at the most convenient location for them, but which unfortunately wasn't a location at which the train was stopping. This didn't do either of them a lot of good, since these were high speed trains. However, it didn't impact too much on the other passengers. If someone tried the same stunt on an airliner, I'd be very grateful to have trained cabin crew available to prevent it.

Jipperty - I can tell you that although the Eurostar has no cabin crew the, the attendants on board are trained incase of emergency or medical. Before I came back to flying I worked for a Train company and part of my training was in the same place as Eurostars.

So although not called cabin crew there are some on board for safety

Jipperty,

Just one example out of many I could have chosen..

Let us assume there is no cabin crew on trains or on planes. Now, you have a fire onboard, be it a smoker setting fire to the toilet, an electrical fire behind the panels, choose anything you like.

What do you, as a passenger, with no crew on board, do? On the train, I would assume you and your fellow travellers will all evacuate that particular carriage, by moving up to the next one and close the (fireproof) door safely behind you. (Someone might try to use an extinguisher, but, untrained, will most likely make a mess of it) Then you will contact the driver, who will probably stop the train and you can all evacuate, its a few feet drop and you should have ample time.

What do you do on a plane, then? You have only that small (relative to the train) cabin, so you cant go anywhere. You will all be breathing in smoke within minutes. Then you try to contact the "driver!, and let's assume you are able to by the same means as on trains. He/she decides to land the plane. Now, how long is that going to take? More than a few minutes, I assure you. In the meantime, you are on your own, smoke and fire killing most of the passengers. You try to put out the fire...where are the xtinguishers? How many are there? how do they work? Do you know the difference between a bcf and a regular water extinguisher? Did you know you must wear smokehood when using bcf, as it emits toxic fumes? where is a smkehood then? How do you put it on? How long does it provide oxygen for? You need protective gloves, too, the bcf gets very cold when used, your fingers will freeze to it. Now, where are the protective gloves? Shoot, there is one here, but its soaking wet, can't use it, wish someone had checked it was servicable before the flight! I can say good bye to my fingers now! If the fire is behind panels, you need somethiing to remove panels with. Hang on, nothing that you could use is allowed onboard, in case terrorists might use it. No trouble, there is a crash axe in the cockpit, but how do I get it? The captain is not going to open the door for me, Im only a passenger and I might be a terrorist, so I can't get to the axe. In the meantime, captain needs more information about developments in the cabin. Are you trained how to relay this information to them accurately?

Now, let us assume the plane finally lands and you are still alive. The cabin is filled of smoke and toxic fumes, and you try to evacuate, but cannot find the exit. If/when you finally do, you open the door, but the slide doesnt blow. That door is many meters up above the ground. If you jump,, you will best case break your legs, worst case your neck. Do you know what to do to inflate the slide? Do you have time to go back and read your safety card? Are you trained how to get people moving towards the exit, you want to help them save themselves, dont you? What if other passengers in their panic try to use that door without theslide? What if they, in their panic, push you out of that door?

Isn't it just easier to have cabin crew onboard that is trained to deal with that fire in teh first place? Or one that stops the idiot setting fire to the loo in the first place?

And there are many more scenarios like this. Answers to all the questions above, and to hudreds of questions more, most you didn't even think existed (!), can be found out from the cabin crew. Because we know the answers to all those questions, and more! That is why we train for weeks, to be able to confidently handle situations you didn't even imagine could happen. We are also the eyes and ears of the pilots.We ars not only there to deal with emergencies when they occur, we are also part of the team that ensures incidents don't happen in the first place!


So yes, planes are less safe than trains in this respect. On the other hand, planes are probably SAFER than trains, exactly BECAUSE cabin crew, and others, are employed to MAKE THEM SAFE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Happy flying! :)

B

Why do we need CC?
 

Very relevant points made in response to my earlier Q. In the spirit of reasoned and open minded debate........

• Unauthorised opening of doors - aren't they locked from the flight deck during flight? If so how could a pax open one? and if said pax was determined to do so could a cc prevent this? No doubt in the train scenario the train had actually stopped outside of a station.
• Medical emergencies - does the airline actually have a duty of care for the health of it's passengers? Should I really expect the airline to be capable of providing life saving treatment to me in the event of an emergency? I do not expect this of other providers i.e. when I get on an inter city train to London and find it hard to believe that any of the ticket inspectors are thus trained.
• Cabin fires - how often do they occur? if there were no CC then a lot of the onboard devices that may cause a fire i.e. the galley equipment could also be removed from the a/c. In fact is it possible that cc are the most common cause of cabin fires?

If the developments in military aviation are adopted in commercial then the days of unpiloted a/c are probably not so far away. No doubt it will start with freighters but then pax flights will slowly follow. Could it really be that we will lose the flight deck crew before the cc?

I'd like to see someone try to open a door whilst the a/c is pressurised.

Jipperty,

1. Yes, flight deck doors are locked from the inside, and can only be opened by the flight crew inside. In the case cabin crew need access to the flight deck in an emergency like pilot incapacitation, there is an emergency code, which, if entered, will give a signal to the pilots, They can then visually check who is outside the door, and if it is not cabin crew, they can elect to keep the door locked, and there is no way to get through it.

Door guarding procedures are varied depending on airline policies and regulations, but yes, the cabin crew is instructed to try to stop anyone forcefully entering the flight deck in-flight. Whether they are able to or not, won't be known until it happens. I, for one, would do my very best!

2. Yes, as far as I am aware, airlines do have the duty of care towards all onboard. I wouldn't be sure of legal interpretations here, but generally speaking, yes. Airlines are also required to carry first aid and/ or medical kits, these are part of the so called MEL (minimum equipment list), without which that aeroplane cannot fly.

3. Im really not sure about statistics on that one, I have no idea how frequent or serious in-flight fires actually are. My understanding is that they are rare, but hey, that's exactly why cabin crew are trained to deal with fire and smoke scenarions, just in case of the rare event they do occur.

Equipment used for cabin service may, of course, be the most common reason for fires, however, that is not to say that without this equipment no fires would occur at all.

To sum up my opinion on why it is necessary to have cabin crew onboard, it is because the aircraft operates in a very specific environment, ie far above the ground. If you have a fire on the train, you do yuur best, save yourself then STOP AND CALL THE FIREBRIGADE.
If you have unruly passengers on the train, or someone causing criminal dmagae, or committing a crime, once again, YOU STOP AND CALL THE POLICE!
If you have any kind of medical emergency on a train, again, you do your best, STOP AND CALL THE AMBULANCE.


What do you do on a plane, though? You could carry a few firefighters, policemen, medical professionals, etc on every flight. That would be expensive and unreasonable, given that a serious incidents don't happen that often (nothing in my case in nearly five years of flying) It is a lot easier to employ the lovely cabin crew who are trained and practiced (to an extent) to deal with these scenarios, although only trained to the extent it is necessary (ie no, cabin crew are not fully trained fire fighters, policemen, nurses, doctors, terrorist squads, but a little tiny bit all of those).

B

F3G,

I think the point made there was more general, ie if somebody was trying to interfere with safety or safety equipment, then he would like trained crew to deal with it.

Korroll

I fly too frequently to not listen intently to the briefing.

As a very frequent flyer, I get VERY p***ed off with the PAX who ignore the safety briefing. Their stupidity and ignorance could cost me my life.

When I first 'flew' - as SLF of course - I paid attention to the safety briefing. A few years later, travelling 2 or 3 times a month I thought it was 'cool' to show that as I was a regular [and therfore very important] pax, there was no need whatsoever for me to pay any attention to the briefing.
Now however, thanks partly to PPRune, and also to being a lot older and wiser, I always take care to put down my book/newspaper during the briefing, out of self-preservation and also out of politeness.
The one thing I always do without fail, is to count the number of seats between me and the nearest exits [in front and behind] - I'm always amazed how many pax never seem to look around them during the safety briefing.
I know the chances of an incident are rare, [which is perhaps why so many non-frequent fliers seem to be so un-concerned], but it is always better to be safe than sorry - which is why I agree with radeng - I do not want to be obstructed getting to an emergency exit by someone going the 'wrong' way.

Speaking of automation...

Found myself in the front carriage of the Dubai metro in the position i would have expected a driver to be.

Totally automated. No Staff on the train whatsoever.

Working in IT industry i felt rather more comfortable knowing that "some" chance of human error had been eliminated :)

Smala01

But smala01, what happens when something goes wrong? Like a fire, or a derailment, or a failure caused by a hot axle box which could lead to both? Who looks after the PAX then?

Recent posting in Rumour and News has referred to the NTSB final report on US1549 (ditching in the Hudson) here including this observation:So regardless of many of the comments above, what is being done isn't working. Time for a rethink?

Safety Cards
 

All the very interesting and valuable information posted here has made me feel even more guilty about my original tongue-in-cheek but rather inappropriate post - for which I have already apologised.

That is a very interesting point re the Hudson River ditching - and raises the question of when safety information should be made available to passengers. Should it, for example, be provided when they book on line and be delivered electronically with their tickets - so it can be printed out and studied well before the flight?

I recently flew on a DHC-8-402 and have to admit that until I read the safety card had no idea that in the event of ditching the two rear doors would not be opened and all evacuation should be through the two front exits (one of which is passenger operated) - quite an issue if there are 75 people on board. I don't recall this being mentioned in the briefing from the cabin crew - but I could be wrong about that.

And are safety cards for all the myriad types of airliner available on the internet ? If they are I don't know where to find them.

I find the safety cards universally as readable as if they were in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics!

Korrol. I've been flying for more years than I care to remember as crew and as passenger. When the safety briefing is being given I still give it about 90% of my attention. The other 10% is used to find the pratts who are going to get in my way to the emergency exit when the Sh*t hits the fan. If you are one of those pratts then I will tread all over you...

Have a nice day

Regards

No the poster specifically referred to people opening doors on high speed trains.

However, my comment was not entirely serious.

Try that on me and you will wake up in hospital, if you wake up at all.

And I have been in a fire where over 50 people died around me, so I know what it feels like and am not talking from hypothesis.

The subject of the "Safety Briefing" comes up every now and again.

The thread usually starts with someone observing, correctly, that as a procedure it's ineffective when employed in 95% of the flights that operate every day around the world.

Then a mixture of retired crew and self-declared frequent flyers waving their willies about how often they fly pile in, missing the point entirely, and assert correctly that it's necessary for passengers to know what to do in an emergency.

Whatever might happen in the USA, in the rest of the world the briefing will be given in the carrier's language and again, if you are lucky, in broken English that's often unintelligible to English speakers, let alone the, say, 25% - 50% of the passengers who speak neither the carrier's language nor English.

The briefing as still practised where there's no video has not changed in any significant way since I first saw it in 1965.

The demo of putting on a life jacket is fine, but go round the cabin after it, as I have done, and ask a selection of passengers to actually find it and get in into their hands quickly, and most will fail to do that.

The ritual, silly little dance movement "showing the exits" merely tells the watcher that there are doors front and back, to someone who understands that's what the vague, choreographed wave is about.

Pointing out that this pointless farce is ridiculous does not condemn me as someone who doesn't understand that passengers need to know what to do, and be reminded frequently.

It just puts me in the category of those who think, sorry, know that a better way must be found of achieving that.

Statements like simply tell me that whoever says it is an idiot. It's a very good thing that OyYou was not on board US1549, where he could easily have been solely responsible for the deaths of a lot of people as he trampled his way over them to the exit.

:)

Pprune without the willie waving would be like the world cup without any flags.

From original post:

[Why don't cabin crew] just get on with what they're supposed to do?

So, that would be providing a safety demonstration as required by law, yes?

This is the most pointless thread ever. := :ugh:

bizdev
 

I used Air Berlin about 30 times. Even on flights inside Germany I always heard German/English safety announcements. Whatever happened on your flight it seems to me being an exception. I agree with you that this could irritate someone not speaking German.

Flying pretty often these days (same carriers and same type of aircraft) I rarely pay attention to the safety briefing. BUT: whenever I fly on a different type/subtype I take my time to look where the emergency exists are located and I also have a look at the safety card.

I have been extremely fortunate in that I have never been on an aircraft that was evacuated.

I don't think OyYou was saying he'd make a mad dash for the nearest exit and simply trample everyone in his way.

And I don't think either one of us would just pass by someone who truly needs help.

Oy could have worded it a little better...

But I partially agree with him, in that I too will go around/over any pratt who puts a higher value on his carry-on stuff than his life or mine and delays both of us by trying to collect all his belonging before exiting.

I'm not going to risk death waiting for you to collect your duty-free booze or your laptop.

Think of it as chlorine in the gene pool, if you will.


Regarding all the comments vis a vis "I've heard it so many times I don't need to..." all I can think to say is that it's a total of maybe 5 minutes, and you're captive at the moment anyway.

Can't you spare the time? Will you absolutely just die paying attention one more time?

I don't think I said
 

"I've heard it so many times ...".

My comment on the BA video was that it was out of sync with what was happening. We're already moving and should already be strapped in and "To fasten your seat belt, insert the ..." Then they tell you that your carry-on must be in the overhead lockers or ... long after that already has been done. This is BORING after the first dozen times.

The Hudson experience tells us that few people (except PPRuNers of course) pay attention or read the card.

If we want better knowledge we need to rethink this. What's being done isn't working.

I suggested above that those obnoxious CNN/SKY news video machines at the gate be used to show you the safety video. Perhaps something a little more realistic - such as showing a realistic depressurisation (noise and fog and all of that). Wouldn't you love to see a realistic depiction of the slides forming rafts?

Before I get chastised, I do pay attention to every briefing but and it is a big but, this ongoing issue that every aircraft is different therefore…………….…. is really a red herring.

I fly on the same S E Asian carrier just about every week. Their video briefing is identical (except for the locations of the emergency exits) irrespective of aircraft type. This briefing is given in English and their local language and the safety card is in English only.

Unless we mandate ICAO level 4 for pax there is a hole in the briefing process already.

As others have pointed out, the briefing is normally given after pushback when it is pointless being briefed on how and where to stow cabin baggage, how to fasten seat belts and so on.

I always check where MY exit is both fore and aft. I count how many seats I’ll need to climb over to get to it as I assume everyone around me won’t have a clue what to do. I clearly understand that the cc will be totally powerless to help as in the event they are already at the exit I’ll need to get to.

I don’t know what the answer is but modern briefings are both repetitive and boring. There has to be a better way. Possibly an on line test either at home or in the departure lounge with a personal briefing for those who fail or who haven’t performed the test?