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Instructions to PAX to ignore safety instructions

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Instructions to PAX to ignore safety instructions

Old 7th Jul 2013, 13:40
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Instructions to PAX to ignore safety instructions

When events such as SFO occur, PPRuNe is full of people complaining that PAX ignore safety instructions. But they are TOLD to ignore safety briefings.

Here is a current Easyjet safety briefing.

IMG_0571 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

There is a drawing showing how to adopt the 'brace' position, but everyone on board, from the captain down, must know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to adopt anything like this position in any of the seats on the aircraft.

IMG_0574 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
The only assumption that any intelligent passenger can make is that these instructions are a pure meaningless formality, and that neither the captain, nor the flight crew, nor anyone in Easyjet management expect passengers to take any of this information seriously.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 14:49
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I agree that the BRACE position is unrealistic and has been for years. But no carrier is going to change it anytime soon!

Whenever I see pictures of pax emerging from a prang (or simply a precautionary evac) with their hand luggage I reply that no one should be surprised. In the SFO thread I said that of course the PAX were leaving with luggage as they are PAX - making it clear that I am PAX.

Also, that one can understand that that any CC seeing pax presenting at the top of the chute with their bags - will let them take it with them, otherwise they have to spend time wrestling it off them and stacking it (where?) causing more obstruction.

Last edited by PAXboy; 7th Jul 2013 at 20:08.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 16:47
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The only assumption that any intelligent passenger can make is that these instructions are a pure meaningless formality, and that neither the captain, nor the flight crew, nor anyone in Easyjet management expect passengers to take any of this information seriously.
Welcome to PPRuNe kilfeder and your first post has unmasked a high level conspiracy with profound implications for the travelling public
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 20:53
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Anyone with just half a functioning eye will notice that in the depicted brace position the head and knee are aligned vertically. Which means that it is very much a position that is possible to adopt. In case it has escaped the notice of any of the resident sciolists, the back of any seat is designed to be pushed forward with minimal effort to accommodate your inflated noggin should the need arise.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 22:23
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Anyone with just half a functioning eye will notice that in the depicted
brace position the head and knee are aligned vertically. Which means that it is very much a position that is possible to adopt. In case it has escaped the
notice of any of the resident sciolists, the back of any seat is designed to be
pushed forward with minimal effort to accommodate your inflated noggin should the need arise.
You are indeed correct, assuming you're lucky enough to be on an aircraft with the seat rows so well spaced, not many of those these days. Of course you will need to undo your seatbelt too.
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Old 7th Jul 2013, 22:29
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That is just absolute nonsense. If you can sit in the seat you can also adopt the brace position.
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Old 8th Jul 2013, 08:14
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Squeezy's safety demonstration is poor, much worse than other airlines.

I recently flew GVA-BRS (on EZY not EZS). Almost as soon as the door closed they started the tape of the French language briefing. People were still in the aisle storing their baggage etc. Cabin crew not participating in briefing, not showing how to belt the life jacket, not showing the whistle and light, not doing anything related to the briefing. Frankly I'm not sure why they bothered.

A few minutes later, once the cabin was a little calmer, they did the briefing in English. This wasn't a tape but spoken very quickly in a very very thick accent from somewhere up north. I'm English mother tongue, but not British, and I couldn't understand what she was saying. French speakers, even with perfect English, would have not done as well as I.

How can you expect the passengers to know how to 'assume the position' in these circumstances?

Yes, I've seen the briefing thousands of times so I knew what was going on but don't they expect you to pay careful attention to every briefing?

The return flight a few days later had a similar French briefing (i.e. playing a tape while crew did other things) but the English was more understandable, but spoken much too quickly.
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Old 8th Jul 2013, 10:50
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I used to be a very frequent Biz class customer. I had Gold with SQ and BA. In those days, I travelled biz and could understand the brace position.

Since I retired I am a holidays flying customer.

I cannot imagine how to adopt the brace position in any economy flight. It is not physically possible for me at over 6 feet tall.

Basically, I infer from that, that it is OK according to the safety gurus to just lie to customers about safety, just as they lie about Customer Service.

I did once ask the nice people at the Belgrano, but was not persistent enough to get a reply. (A quick plug for their medics - they are brilliant).

Even though I know that I am being told rubbish, wrt the brace position, I have resolved to carefully listen to each and every safety briefing. (I used to read the paper/a book, but a BMD steward told me off once in very fierce terms, so now I listen and watch on every flight).
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Old 8th Jul 2013, 18:22
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Even so, cavilling about achieving the exact position seems a bit much, the point is to make yourself as small as possible and protect your head, jeez - do people really believe the brace position guarantees survival instead of being a "best option" or something?
In the event of emergency, bend over and kiss your goodbye, so to speak.
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Old 8th Jul 2013, 19:57
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"Even so, cavilling about achieving the exact position seems a bit much, the point is to make yourself as small as possible and protect your head,"

It's also about stopping you breaking your neck, which is what happened to some unfortunates in otherwise survivable accidents who adopted the previously recommended brace position.

And perhaps more importantly, in a survivable accident, it is all about protecting your legs. Again, people have perished, because they either broke their shins on the seat in front, so becoming immobilised, or breaking/trapping legs under their own seats. If you look at any safety card, the legs are drawn in a very specific position
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 10:44
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Some one said.....

"Astonishing how non-technical outsiders always feel they know better than the industry's Professionals, isn't it?"

...............it is equally astonishing how whoever said that just knows everything that there is to know about everything.

I don't suppose they have a partner, but if they did, their partner would not have to bother with Google.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 13:15
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In the United Kingdom, following the Kegworth air disaster in 1989, the UK Civil Aviation Authority contracted an engineering consultancy, Hawtal Whiting Structures, to perform computer based analytical investigation to optimise the brace for impact position for forward-facing passengers. This was supported by medical information from the University of Nottingham and testing at the Institute of Aviation Medicine.
I think I'd go along with that, and:
I
n one accident, passengers were asleep on an aircraft that was about to collide with trees. One passenger, out of the sixteen, awoke and adopted the procedure, and he was the only survivor.[5] All passengers aboard Scandinavian Airlines Flight 751, which crashed, survived: an outcome which it has been suggested was largely thanks to the passengers' universal adoption of the brace position.[6]
During the "Miracle on the Hudson" flight on January 15, 2009, there were fewer than three minutes to land U.S. Airways Flight 1549 into the Hudson River[7] and the only words the passengers heard from the pilot were "Brace for Impact". Flight attendants chanted, "Brace! Brace! Heads down! Stay down!" [8] and all 155 people on board survived with no life-threatening injuries.
also seems pretty convincing. Other more recent studies have backed this up. I read a report a few weeks ago but can't find it at the moment. If I do, I'll post it.

For me, if I'm ever asked to do so, I'll adopt the brace position. I always listen to the safety briefing and take note of exits and emergency lighting. I suppose I'm extra careful because my Dad was a London firefighter. Flashovers happen very quickly but the real killer is smoke. You should crawl on the floor in smoke conditions, which is why the emergency lighting is low down. People reaching upward for their cabin bags in the overhead lockers would be the first to be overcome by smoke fumes. I hope I'm never in the situation but if I am I know exactly what I'll do.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 15:43
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Note last paragraph of this story: San Francisco crash survivors show unusual pattern of spinal injuries | CTV News

Meanwhile, Okonkwo said assuming the "crash position" -- leaning forward with the head as far down as possible and arms over it -- can limit the spine jolting back and forth and offer some protection. It's not clear ifs any survivors of Saturday's crash had time to do so.
Pity they didn't have a Brace, Brace warning. (Yes I knows there was no time to give one - let's stay on thread)
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 09:12
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Please don't get confused about this: It is an established fact that various PPRuNe contributors are a far more reliable source of knowledge and "The Truth" than the various airlines and regulatory authorities, whose primary aim is to kill as many passengers as possible.

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Old 10th Jul 2013, 09:55
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I love your irony, TS - it livens up PPRuNe no end!
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 11:03
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The myth about the brace position being designed to kill people came from the fact that airlines used to lose less money per death than they lost per injury.
(Mythbusters covered it some years ago)

The same article that Sunny John used to describe the UK's brace position goes on to describe the UK's brace position in great detail.
I won't bore you with it, but if you want to read it, it is on wiki. . Suffice it to say that the UK's post-Kegworth brace position described in that article is NOTHING like the brace position pictured in the OP's attachments.
And, for those who want to display their obviously much greater expertise, I did research this quite carefully before I talked to the nice people at the Belgrano.

Last edited by Ancient Observer; 10th Jul 2013 at 11:20.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 15:55
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Is safety too expensive?

San Francisco plane crash: rear-facing aircraft seats 'safer' - Telegraph
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 22:43
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Rear facing seats? We haven't had that question in here so far this year, to the best o fmy knowledge. Those that want should search the PPRuNe archive for the discussions that all come back:

  • Yes, they are safe in certain types of impact
  • No, no carrier is ever going to install them
  • Yes, tests have been carried out over the years
  • No, routine pax don't like them
  • Yes, they have them in BA Biz and no one complains (in such a way that it has reached the newspapers)
  • etcetera!
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Old 11th Jul 2013, 02:08
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#20 has it right. Also, take a look at the Wikipedia article photo: Brace position - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The object isn't to bend double and put your head on your knees. It is to use up the empty space between your head and the seat back just in front of you. The object that your head will accelerate towards when the aircraft comes to a sudden stop.
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Old 18th Jul 2013, 23:28
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The issue about pax taking their hand luggage with them just shows how sensible and practical pax actually are. They know that if they follow the instructions and leave without their documentation in their hand luggage, their lives will be made a misery. The immigration officials at San Francisco, seeing a bedraggled set of Asian passengers approaching them with no passports, would have immediately sent for a bulk order of handcuffs. Attempts to board onward or return flights, or even just check in at the hotel, would be thwarted at every opportunity, there being of course no procedures anywhere to cater for pax whose documents (eg those in women's handbags) were "left behind in accordance with the safety card instructions". If they go to get their tickets reissued they will be stung for a fee - and then if their credit card was in the handbag they will just be told to get lost.

For those who reckon that the brace position is attainable, I can only presume they luxuriate in business class at all times (doubtless paid for by others). They should try it seated three-across in the rear cabin of a low-cost, 28" seat pitch aircraft. Give it a shot yourself sometime, have three of you walk back to the cheap seats after arrival, squeeze in side-by-side, and give it a shot at getting anywhere near what the card shows..

Rear-facing seats a la RAF were long ago shown to be worse for safety in a sudden deceleration, where much of the danger comes from cabin debris flying forward, which you are pretty much protected from by the seatback in forward-facing seats, but not at all in rearward-facing ones. Even the RAF eventually realised this and gave them up on their most recent transport aircraft.

Last edited by WHBM; 18th Jul 2013 at 23:40.
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