£660

[jabird]

In the case of KLM O2 would be required on four flights.

Five - the route to Curacao calls at SXM on the outbound. Now that right turn to avoid Signal Hill is enough to have all passengers needing extra oxygen!

[Rollingthunder]

ExXB

We know exactly what a Medi-Pac costs. It is provided as customer service related to doctor's advice.

Value Jets tragic incidence was caused by improper shipping of seat back O2 generators. An entirely different thing.

Purpose of trip is not part of the equasion.

[ExXB]

I agree the purpose of the trip is irrelevant, I was just stating my opinion.

However, as a result of the ValueJet incident - or if you prefer crash, O2 canisters cannot be carried in the belly of passenger aircraft (or in KLM's case in the hold of one of their combies). While this may have been a knee-jerk reaction at the time, it is now part of the ICAO/IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations. This alone add significant costs to the process, particularly in a market like the ABC islands where there are few freighters flying to Europe. That was my point. The costs are not insignificant.

Having O2 canisters in place for the four airports in question (or five) is a logistical nightmare.

I am glad that your company is prepared to absorb these costs, but obviously not all companies are that generous.

[Avionker]

Just out of curiosity ExXB are you confusing gaseous oxygen cylinders with chemical oxygen generators?

[jabird]

aving O2 canisters in place for the four airports in question (or five) is a logistical nightmare.

True, but could anyone comment on what would happen if, say, midway between SXM & CUR, the passenger starts having a seizure?

Given what was stated in the article, is the chance of that not almost 1?

Firstly, that is a terrible thing to inflict on the other passengers. Secondly, what is the procedure for treating, and who does it? What equipment is needed and how much space is needed? Presumably a "lessor" airline would just refuse to take the passenger?

Now if it gets more serious, where do you divert to? At least if this trip was to Florida, there would be a number of major cities up the east coast with specialist childrens' units that could help (but at what cost?). The Caribbean is a nightmare in this respect - different jurisdictions and very different standards of facilities as the populations on each island simply don't warrant the existence of the kind of facility you would find in a hospital like, say Great Ormond St. And that, of course, is assuming they will let you park your 747-400 there in the first place!

[Rollingthunder]

Medi-pacs, in the cabin, are not subject to Dangerous Goods regs.

I like swimming with dolphins. They are usually friendly.

[gusting_45]

Passengers' gaseous oxygen cylinders are permitted on board provided the operator is notified and the captain is informed. If KLM refuse it's carriage then that is their own rule and not a restriction imposed by it being defined as dangerous goods. Gaseous O2 systems are not permitted in checked in baggage. Liquid O2 systems are not permitted on board in either carry on or checked in baggage.

[BlueTui]

Should of just flow Thomson to Aruba and got a short internal flight... Thomson provide it free of charge.....

For something like this you do your homework, these people clearly have not and are just milking the press.

[Avionker]

KLM Working on a Solution For Disabled Toddler | Blog

KLM offers the possibility to provide passengers with a medical condition with compressed oxygen during their flight. Passengers may also seek to bring their own Portable Oxygen Concentrator. Either application must be made in advance by a medical doctor.

Jolina's parents originally called KLM heartless, not being fully aware of the airline's regulation.

Looks like it's all going to work out in the end.

[G&T ice n slice]

Call me a heartless nazi .. but

They have "raised" GBP 15,000

the airline seats cost GBP 3,500
the airline wants to be paid for providing an extra service (seems fair to me)

Question 1 - GBP 11,500 is left over after the seats
taking out GBP 660 leaves GBP 10,840

Now as far as I can make out a dolphin swimming session is about GBP 100 a time
Hotels are about GBP 100 a night
so that's GBP 200 daily - thow in a few extras at GBP50/day thats GBP250

So out of GBP10,840 that means about 43 days

"It's not a holiday"
well, yes it is - around 43 days worth

Seems to me like another set of "the world owes me a living" types.

sorry, for the little one, but in past times seems like we carried our own burdens, now we expect everyone else to, and they complain when everything isn't to our own spec.

[edi_local]

Originally Posted by G&T ice n slice

Seems to me like another set of "the world owes me a living" types.

sorry, for the little one, but in past times seems like we carried our own burdens, now we expect everyone else to, and they complain when everything isn't to our own spec.

Couldn't agree more.

Yet another case of someone wanting special treatment because they couldn't be bothered to do the research before hand. I know they have a disabled toddler to think about but 10 minutes of checking on the KLM website, or even a phone call to KLM would have given them all the information they needed. I'm sick of this kind of culture now. If you're travelling with someone who requires specialised treatment then for goodness sake check out what the airline has to say on the matter. If they demand an extra cost then you pay it, simple as. Why should an airline go out of pocket to provide a service which is by no means standard? My aunt looks after my mentally disabled cousin and she regularly flies with him. The EZY staff at LTN know about them and she knows EZYs policies on dealing with people like my cousin, but when she travels through another airport or with a new airline she always checks to make sure they are able to offer the assistance she needs. It's common sense, surely to check these things in advance and be prepared.

Like others have said, sympathy for the little girl, but not for the parents.

[jabird]

If would still question what happens during the event of an in-flight seizure? Has this risk been assessed and if there isn't a suitably trained person with the child, do you rely on there being a doctor on board or do you divert?

Considering health and safety environment + need for a specialist, I'm not sure if the former is relevant anyway, the latter poses considerable challenges.

G&T - I think there might be a big cost difference between swimming with dolphins as a tourist activity and the kind of therapy that is being offered here.

I totally agree with other comments about the entitlement culture and the lose-lose that the airlines are in, but having to care for a child that ill is still no holiday. That's why we have respite care.

[parabellum]

Well presumably they have taken out insurance for this trip and the good people at the insurance company have given them a standard £40 long haul policy with no special conditions?

Insurance probably excludes pre existing conditions and if it is known that oxygen will be required then it would not be covered by insurance, which is intended for protection against the unexpected and not a provision for a racing certainty. (Pure life insurance policies are an exception).

[Chuchinchow]

[pedant warning]

There is a difference between "insurance" (events or objects, for example) and "assurance" (people's lives)!

[/pedant warning]

[jabird]

[pedant warning]

There is a difference between "insurance" (events or objects, for example) and "assurance" (people's lives)!

[/pedant warning]

To pedant you back (if it can be a verb) and more - life insurance is a commonly used term, whether correct or not. Although I have never seen policies for people less than 18.

Insurance probably excludes pre existing conditions and if it is known that oxygen will be required then it would not be covered by insurance, which is intended for protection against the unexpected and not a provision for a racing certainty

You can get cover for pre-existing, they just woof the premiums up. You slice the extreme likelihood of something happen by dividing it by only taking the trip for a short period of time.

Thus even an event with a probability of 50% to occur within a year becomes 1% within the next week (roughly).

Could anyone comment on the procedure for a divert in this case, and who pays? If it happened, would KLM claim the costs against the insurance policy?

and got a short internal flight... Thomson provide it free of charge.....

Quite a variety of providers for that hop, a challenge if any flight is late at the best of times, but let's say they went this way.

Some aircraft doing this are small and unpressurised. The only comparable machine I've been on is the twotter, and I think getting anything other than yourself into those seats is going to be a struggle. Could anyone comment?

Also, not (directly) relevant to this case, but I'm confused:

Aruba is one of the four constituent countries that form the Kingdom of the Netherlands, together with the Netherlands, Curaçao, and Sint Maarten whose citizens share a single nationality: Dutch citizen.

In which case, why is SXM not a domestic destination from AMS, and why is there immigration for arrivals from CDG / ORY? Surely if one is a Dutch citizen, one is a European citizen and therefore these airports are part of the Schengen zone.

And if so, then the capital of Curacao is Amsterdam, and APD for this journey should be £12 per head. Heartless UK government!

[parabellum]

Chuchinchow - Point taken!

jabird - Yes you can get cover for some pre existing conditions but I don't believe that would cover the cost of the provision of oxygen, as a pre requisite for the journey, that would amount to making a claim before the event, a non starter as far as the insurance world is concerned.

If the oxygen is a known requirement prior to the journey then it is down to the passenger or their supporting health services to provide it, or the airline, at a cost.

[Avionker]

A slightly different angle on the story from the BBC.

BBC News - Birmingham family receives oxygen bill for disabled toddler

As there does not appear to be any updates on the story, and they were due to fly yesterday, one assumes that they got away as planned.

I suspect that KLM may well have reviewed the charges, but if they did that wouldn't be newsworthy would it?

[jabird]

Yes you can get cover for some pre existing conditions but I don't believe that would cover the cost of the provision of oxygen

I wasn't suggesting that. As you say, the need for the O2 is a cert, there is nothing to insure in that respect.

The reason I brought up insurance was that the original article stated that the child would have upto 10 seizures per day. That also vritually guarantees there will be one on the flight. I wonder what procedure is to deal with that?

I then said that there was still a very high chance that the condition could deteriorate and that this might need additional and urgent medical help. It was the potential cost of this divert that KLM might claim from the insurance company, not the O2 cost.

BBC article says:

According to the family, they had expected to be charged £330, but Dutch airline KLM doubled this amount a week before they were due to leave.

This implies they did know O2 was chargeable.

A week before Friday's flight, he said the cost had been doubled as KLM considered the journey from Birmingham to Curacao, via Amsterdam, as two flights in each direction

I might have expected this from my local bus company, but not for an airline offering a through ticket. I had also assumed that the cost of €660 was due to a fairly sizeable quantity of O2 being needed. Now it turns out that they are actually charging per sector. KLM should have known this as soon as they got a booking reference number. And why on earth would a British family otherwise fly to CUR from AMS without a connection? Sure - as a cheapskate APD avoider I'll do it, but not for a complex journey like this.

"It's not the fact that we can't afford it, it's just the principle of paying 800 euros for something that's potentially going to keep my daughter alive," he added.

Just as I am starting to think that KLM have done a PR boob, we get back to this kind of talk.

Either they have done their research and they know it is chargeable or they haven't, in which case tough. Point the finger at being given the wrong info about the costs, but there seems to be a lot of having cake and eating it going on.

Presumably they are expecting free food when they arrive in Curacao - after all that will keep the three of them alive will it not?

family receives oxygen bill

When I was first scanning this, I was thinking either KLM had backtracked or a donor had stepped forward to fund the difference.

At the end of the day, it is a moving story, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there (and out of millions of paper readers it would only have taken one), someone came up with the cash.

I'm afraid that I'm just a little more cynical than that. My local quite often has this kind of fundraising event, and it is easy to ask why treatments like this can't be provided on the NHS.

Sadly, anything provided by government, or indeed by private company has to conform to some form of cost and benefit equation.

I guess we're always going to be cynics on pprune because we need to think with our heads all the time not our hearts.

Assuming that have gone, I hope it works out