DXB on evening of 30/03/2012
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From: Confoederatio Helvetica
Could anyone help me understand the definition 'outbound journey'?
This relates to a delay on a flight booked DUB-CMB straight through with the same airline which required a short connection in DXB.
What would you consider the outbound journey to be? Is it the full journey DUB-CMB or the first sector DUB-DXB?
Thanks.
This relates to a delay on a flight booked DUB-CMB straight through with the same airline which required a short connection in DXB.
What would you consider the outbound journey to be? Is it the full journey DUB-CMB or the first sector DUB-DXB?
Thanks.
Last edited by ExXB; 21st August 2012 at 13:28.
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From: Dublin
Emirates paid me compensation of (1) A return flight to the same region (2) cash €1,259 (3) 150,000 frequent flyer miles between us.
Presently, I'm still out of pocket by €2,294 and I'm claiming from my UK based Multi Trip Travel Insurance policy for these unrecoverable expenses. My claim is fair and not exagerrated.
My insurers definition of a delay is 'if the insured is delayed for at least 12 hours on the outbound or return journey...because of adverse weather, mechanical breakdown/derangement...' The insurer has argued the outbound journey is DUB to DXB. My argument is the outbound journey was Dublin to Colombo (i was booked straight through, no stop over and held boarding passes to CMB). The case has gone to the Financial Services Ombudsman for direction.
The insurers are also arguing their definition of a storm. It seems their policy covers a storm preventing you from taking off but not a storm preventing you from landing!
Victor - we tried to get off the aircraft but we were not allowed. There was no one in Ras al-Khaimah to help anyone. A fellow passenger actually lived two miles from RAK and was stuck on the aircraft like the rest of us.
Presently, I'm still out of pocket by €2,294 and I'm claiming from my UK based Multi Trip Travel Insurance policy for these unrecoverable expenses. My claim is fair and not exagerrated.
My insurers definition of a delay is 'if the insured is delayed for at least 12 hours on the outbound or return journey...because of adverse weather, mechanical breakdown/derangement...' The insurer has argued the outbound journey is DUB to DXB. My argument is the outbound journey was Dublin to Colombo (i was booked straight through, no stop over and held boarding passes to CMB). The case has gone to the Financial Services Ombudsman for direction.
The insurers are also arguing their definition of a storm. It seems their policy covers a storm preventing you from taking off but not a storm preventing you from landing!
Victor - we tried to get off the aircraft but we were not allowed. There was no one in Ras al-Khaimah to help anyone. A fellow passenger actually lived two miles from RAK and was stuck on the aircraft like the rest of us.
Last edited by Sober Lark; 21st August 2012 at 14:18.
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From: In the back of a bus
I note with interest your comment on another thread that "Emirates stranded me in RAK"... but by other comments by people flying that day and indeed the media, it was not in fact the airline who stranded the flight but the authorities in RAK was it not? While the delays were indeed unfortunate and inconvenient I cannot really see how they could have done anything else considering that fog/dust storm/whatever it was is a natural occurence and landing was just not possible... surely the blame should go to a) mother nature and b) Dubai Airports for the traffic management.... also you may be interested to know that a new arrivals/departure systems is to start tomorrow so we will see how that improves the situation during the 'rush hour'
Lucky your insurer covers weather-related delay- many will not.
Victor, RAK is a separate Emirate and may therefore have their own separate rules- bit like a plane landing in Brisbane instead of Sydney for some reason *may* be subject to different conditions or regulations of the State or the airport operator.
As for rostering, it's very complex operation and I do not envy them in the slightest when things go pear-shaped. As with many airlines, the cabin crew are paid a basic salary per month and flying hours are calculated from chocks off to chocks on. So I would think while on ground they were not being paid, however it would depend if the captain were savvy and had the chocks kept off a bit longer or not
Something I think passengers do not know when giving crew hell during a delay- they are standing there taking it for free!! So some people out there really should be nicer, after all the crew are just as stuck, hot, hungry and tired as the pax (probably more so since they cannot sleep during a delay)
Keep us posted on what happens, I really am interested to know how this kind of a delay is treated since weather really is something that is out of the airline's control. I can think of maybe three occasions in the last few years where this has happened in Dubai, to many airlines inc EK, FlyDubai, Etihad, Gulf and Qatar...
Lucky your insurer covers weather-related delay- many will not.
Victor, RAK is a separate Emirate and may therefore have their own separate rules- bit like a plane landing in Brisbane instead of Sydney for some reason *may* be subject to different conditions or regulations of the State or the airport operator.
As for rostering, it's very complex operation and I do not envy them in the slightest when things go pear-shaped. As with many airlines, the cabin crew are paid a basic salary per month and flying hours are calculated from chocks off to chocks on. So I would think while on ground they were not being paid, however it would depend if the captain were savvy and had the chocks kept off a bit longer or not
Something I think passengers do not know when giving crew hell during a delay- they are standing there taking it for free!! So some people out there really should be nicer, after all the crew are just as stuck, hot, hungry and tired as the pax (probably more so since they cannot sleep during a delay)Keep us posted on what happens, I really am interested to know how this kind of a delay is treated since weather really is something that is out of the airline's control. I can think of maybe three occasions in the last few years where this has happened in Dubai, to many airlines inc EK, FlyDubai, Etihad, Gulf and Qatar...
Last edited by givemewings; 22nd August 2012 at 12:46.
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From: Dublin
Thank you for your reply givemewings, Basil and Victor and for your continued interest ExXB.
Previous post - "The other 4 EK flights affected were diverted to different airports in the region and their PAX enjoyed a 'fuel and go' facility with only a short delay. So the choice taken by EK162 to have to use RKT as a diversion airport on the evening was not at all unavoidable not at all 'force majeure'"
EK48/52 went 379km to DOH
EK91 went 107km to FJR
EK349 went 384km to MCT
EK381 went 127km to AAN
Why would EK162 choose to go 70km to an airport without facilities?
From where I was seated and as far as I could see I'm pleased to confirm people were at all times polite and friendly towards the crew. They looked pretty fresh after 21 hours of duty and you have to admire their professionalism. The pilot seemed to find the situation of complete lack of services as bizarre as we did. Of all the other choices he had why did he choose to land in such a hell hole on a Friday night / Sat morning? I really believe he had no choice. Perhaps he was like the Ryanair 4 or perhaps Emirates don't get on that well with RKT?
In passing I wrote to the airport management in RKT but I guess it would be embarassing for them to have to reply so they choose not to.
The insurance policy is for unrecovered expenses, I'll never be compensated for loss of time and I accept that. What I aim for is to be left in broadly the same financial position after the event as I was before the trip began. We met the pre-requirements for cover to apply. Our booking and trip complies with the period of cover requirement. The claim meets the wording in the policy definitions section and is not affected by the general exclusions section of the policy and we fulfilled our obligation to minimise a claim.
I've come to the conclusion that Emirates and many more airlines use standard terminology in their letters of apology which covers their asses against a valid claim and which as a consequence has the knock on effect of making it harder for Mr.& Ms. Joe Soap successfully claiming on their travel insurance policy.
Of course I'll let you all know how I got on. You've all been kind enough to read the post and many of you have helped me with guidance and direction which is much appreciated. Hopefully my experience will also help others who may find themselves in a similar situation.
Previous post - "The other 4 EK flights affected were diverted to different airports in the region and their PAX enjoyed a 'fuel and go' facility with only a short delay. So the choice taken by EK162 to have to use RKT as a diversion airport on the evening was not at all unavoidable not at all 'force majeure'"
EK48/52 went 379km to DOH
EK91 went 107km to FJR
EK349 went 384km to MCT
EK381 went 127km to AAN
Why would EK162 choose to go 70km to an airport without facilities?
From where I was seated and as far as I could see I'm pleased to confirm people were at all times polite and friendly towards the crew. They looked pretty fresh after 21 hours of duty and you have to admire their professionalism. The pilot seemed to find the situation of complete lack of services as bizarre as we did. Of all the other choices he had why did he choose to land in such a hell hole on a Friday night / Sat morning? I really believe he had no choice. Perhaps he was like the Ryanair 4 or perhaps Emirates don't get on that well with RKT?
In passing I wrote to the airport management in RKT but I guess it would be embarassing for them to have to reply so they choose not to.
The insurance policy is for unrecovered expenses, I'll never be compensated for loss of time and I accept that. What I aim for is to be left in broadly the same financial position after the event as I was before the trip began. We met the pre-requirements for cover to apply. Our booking and trip complies with the period of cover requirement. The claim meets the wording in the policy definitions section and is not affected by the general exclusions section of the policy and we fulfilled our obligation to minimise a claim.
I've come to the conclusion that Emirates and many more airlines use standard terminology in their letters of apology which covers their asses against a valid claim and which as a consequence has the knock on effect of making it harder for Mr.& Ms. Joe Soap successfully claiming on their travel insurance policy.
Of course I'll let you all know how I got on. You've all been kind enough to read the post and many of you have helped me with guidance and direction which is much appreciated. Hopefully my experience will also help others who may find themselves in a similar situation.
Last edited by Sober Lark; 22nd August 2012 at 14:05.
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From: In the back of a bus
Lark, were there any other (commercial, diverted) flights in RAK when you were there? It could be as you say, that it was the only option- I would very much doubt a crew would knowingly go there if there were no way to refuel- it could be that stocks were low or other flights got there first. RAK is not exactly a hugely busy airport so I would doubt they'd have unlimited supply readily available...
The 381 that went to AAN was not an quick in & out fuel stop, though compared to yours 3 hours or so is short. From what I know there was one (small) fuel truck for the aircraft that went there (at least one FlyDubai and several others)
When you have a lot of diversions you also have the issue of where to park them. With aircraft going to Al Ain and Sharjah it's possible there was nowhere to fit your flight hence the stop in RAK. Al Ain would have been quite full given they had a 380 included amongst the arrivals. When the weather's bad and your first choice alternate is bad, then you go where you can. Like you say, probably had no choice in it.
I know in Australia we have an airfield directory which lists facilities available at particular airfield and the operating hours of same. I am sure there would exist similar in the GCC. It is possible that the information Emirates had regarding facilities had not been updated by the airport operator (merely speculating here, I do not know for sure) if that was the case they could have diverted there, expecting to have full facilities and finding as you did, that it was not the case.
To answer your question of before, yes there would have been some roster disruptions after an extended duty period- a crew going up to 21 hours is definitely into the discretionary period therefore specific rest rules apply before the next flights could be taken.
The 381 that went to AAN was not an quick in & out fuel stop, though compared to yours 3 hours or so is short. From what I know there was one (small) fuel truck for the aircraft that went there (at least one FlyDubai and several others)
When you have a lot of diversions you also have the issue of where to park them. With aircraft going to Al Ain and Sharjah it's possible there was nowhere to fit your flight hence the stop in RAK. Al Ain would have been quite full given they had a 380 included amongst the arrivals. When the weather's bad and your first choice alternate is bad, then you go where you can. Like you say, probably had no choice in it.
I know in Australia we have an airfield directory which lists facilities available at particular airfield and the operating hours of same. I am sure there would exist similar in the GCC. It is possible that the information Emirates had regarding facilities had not been updated by the airport operator (merely speculating here, I do not know for sure) if that was the case they could have diverted there, expecting to have full facilities and finding as you did, that it was not the case.
To answer your question of before, yes there would have been some roster disruptions after an extended duty period- a crew going up to 21 hours is definitely into the discretionary period therefore specific rest rules apply before the next flights could be taken.
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From: Confoederatio Helvetica
In context I would say the outward journey is the portion of your ticket from the point of origin to the next agreed stopping point as shown on the ticket. A connection, of less than 24 hours, is not considered a stopping point.
In the fare calculation area of your ticket it should show if you had a stopover in DXB.
Where you delayed in your arrival in CMB? If you were then you should have a valid claim. But if you managed, despite an unusual connection, to catch your originally booked flight then I'm not so certain.
In the fare calculation area of your ticket it should show if you had a stopover in DXB.
Where you delayed in your arrival in CMB? If you were then you should have a valid claim. But if you managed, despite an unusual connection, to catch your originally booked flight then I'm not so certain.
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From: LSZA & EGWU
Victor, RAK is a separate Emirate and may therefore have their own separate rules- bit like a plane landing in Brisbane instead of Sydney for some reason *may* be subject to different conditions or regulations of the State or the airport operator
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From: In the back of a bus
"Supposed" being the operative word..... haha
Well then, you would know very well how two people from the same govt department can give two different answers to the same question minutes apart- all a part of life in the UAE!!
As Lark said, we shall probably neverrrr know the Why.... one of the things that makes you go hmmm
Well then, you would know very well how two people from the same govt department can give two different answers to the same question minutes apart- all a part of life in the UAE!!
As Lark said, we shall probably neverrrr know the Why.... one of the things that makes you go hmmm
Last edited by givemewings; 23rd August 2012 at 14:57.
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From: Dublin
Successful claim on travel insurance for €2,000 paid today.
(a) Adverse weather conditions caused the diversion but it was Emirates choice of alternate airport (Ras Al Khaimah) that caused the unnecessary delay. Not 'force majeure'.
(b) The 'technical issue' which developed after landing came under the mechanical breakdown or derangement clause.
(a) Reasonable expectations were that the outbound journey was Dublin to Colombo.
After what we had been through Mr. Bruce Forbes Vice President Customer Affairs, Emirates offer on RTE radio's Joe Duffy show to passengers of 25,000 complimentary air miles was shocking to the conscience.
Emirates refunded me a percentage of the fare paid at €1,259, they have also given us future flights at no additional charge for the family and 150,000 air miles. My travel insurance claim for reasonable and unrecoverable travel costs was for €2,294.26 and the insurer paid me €1,919.26 (after excess).
I have been left in broadly the same financial position after the event as I was before (ignoring loss of holiday and time) and I'm happy the matter has been resolved.
May I take this opportunity to thank those on Pprune who took time to comment, the Financial Services Ombudsman and to Ms Margaret Shannon and Mr Paul Holland Managers in Emirates Customer Affairs who I believe handled my complaint to the very best of their ability.
(a) Adverse weather conditions caused the diversion but it was Emirates choice of alternate airport (Ras Al Khaimah) that caused the unnecessary delay. Not 'force majeure'.
(b) The 'technical issue' which developed after landing came under the mechanical breakdown or derangement clause.
(a) Reasonable expectations were that the outbound journey was Dublin to Colombo.
After what we had been through Mr. Bruce Forbes Vice President Customer Affairs, Emirates offer on RTE radio's Joe Duffy show to passengers of 25,000 complimentary air miles was shocking to the conscience.
Emirates refunded me a percentage of the fare paid at €1,259, they have also given us future flights at no additional charge for the family and 150,000 air miles. My travel insurance claim for reasonable and unrecoverable travel costs was for €2,294.26 and the insurer paid me €1,919.26 (after excess).
I have been left in broadly the same financial position after the event as I was before (ignoring loss of holiday and time) and I'm happy the matter has been resolved.
May I take this opportunity to thank those on Pprune who took time to comment, the Financial Services Ombudsman and to Ms Margaret Shannon and Mr Paul Holland Managers in Emirates Customer Affairs who I believe handled my complaint to the very best of their ability.
Last edited by Sober Lark; 11th September 2012 at 14:26.
