Tube boob
Paxing All Over The World
Train drivers have a powerful union from the time when train driving (steam) was a skilled job. The introduction of diesel and electric power, along with electronic signalling, moved the balance of power to the signaller.
Naturally, no one likes to see their job de-skilled, reduced in status or in remuneration. A bit like pilots actually.
The problem for pilots is that, whilst they might be very important to the smooth running of the country they do not have the grip of the train drivers union across all the carriers. And BALPA is nowhere near as ruthless as ASLEF.
Naturally, no one likes to see their job de-skilled, reduced in status or in remuneration. A bit like pilots actually.
The problem for pilots is that, whilst they might be very important to the smooth running of the country they do not have the grip of the train drivers union across all the carriers. And BALPA is nowhere near as ruthless as ASLEF.
Whilst the Central, Jubilee & Victoria lines are automatic the other still have to be driven manually and woe betide a driver that goes past a red signal. You get taken off driving trains if you get too many points on your licence. (In France you would get the sack for a first offence.) In time all lines will be automated and London Undeground have issued a paper suggesting that the train operators could be replaced by a train attendant although existing staff would keep their conditions.
There are plenty of driverless lines and not just in airport terminals, for example Paris Metro line 14.
There is actually quite a lot to learn to be a tube driver - although less than a pilot!
There are several reasons why drivers pay has risen:
- The situation is parallel to pilots prior to airline degregulation where pilots were able to negotiate them way above market rates claiming productivity improvements etc.
- Franchises were awarded on the basis that operators would take revenue risk. Revenue has risen faster than expected hence operators have done rather well. Unions have been able to take their cut. There is what that Governor of the Bank of England would describe as "moral hazard" that is if revenue was less than forecast you lost your franchise and lost a bond but that is all (Northern Spirit, National Expres East Coast etc) if you made more you kept it. ("Cap & Collar" later changed this but lets not go into too much detail.)
- Drivers can easily move between employers. There is no seniority, unlike steam days (no parallel with airlines here). In the early days of privatisation there was a shortage of drivers and as operators were fined for not running trains it was cheaper to poach staff from other operators. The long distance & London operators could afford to pay more (cheaper than a strike). The regional operators which are akin to commuter airlines had to match them. Subsidy levels increased.
- The Government assumed that market forces will force costs to reduce. However the rail market is not a free market. ASLE&F was defeated in 1982 but that was against a single employer backed by the Government.
Will things change? Well the RMT could overplay their hand as BASSA did. If there is a downturn and operators start losing money the Government would have to step in and the balance of power would change. If there were to be a contingency fleet of buses in and a Government willing to put limitations on single occupancy of cars London could probably do without railways for a few weeks which would concentrate minds. I think that it would require a major change in the structure of the industry for much to happen.
Also bear in mind that drivers salaries vary by country and and are lower in most although some do very well such as the French. Looking at the ATC forum some controllers, such as the Spanish to very well, others not as well. Its the same with train drivers.
There are plenty of driverless lines and not just in airport terminals, for example Paris Metro line 14.
There is actually quite a lot to learn to be a tube driver - although less than a pilot!
There are several reasons why drivers pay has risen:
- The situation is parallel to pilots prior to airline degregulation where pilots were able to negotiate them way above market rates claiming productivity improvements etc.
- Franchises were awarded on the basis that operators would take revenue risk. Revenue has risen faster than expected hence operators have done rather well. Unions have been able to take their cut. There is what that Governor of the Bank of England would describe as "moral hazard" that is if revenue was less than forecast you lost your franchise and lost a bond but that is all (Northern Spirit, National Expres East Coast etc) if you made more you kept it. ("Cap & Collar" later changed this but lets not go into too much detail.)
- Drivers can easily move between employers. There is no seniority, unlike steam days (no parallel with airlines here). In the early days of privatisation there was a shortage of drivers and as operators were fined for not running trains it was cheaper to poach staff from other operators. The long distance & London operators could afford to pay more (cheaper than a strike). The regional operators which are akin to commuter airlines had to match them. Subsidy levels increased.
- The Government assumed that market forces will force costs to reduce. However the rail market is not a free market. ASLE&F was defeated in 1982 but that was against a single employer backed by the Government.
Will things change? Well the RMT could overplay their hand as BASSA did. If there is a downturn and operators start losing money the Government would have to step in and the balance of power would change. If there were to be a contingency fleet of buses in and a Government willing to put limitations on single occupancy of cars London could probably do without railways for a few weeks which would concentrate minds. I think that it would require a major change in the structure of the industry for much to happen.
Also bear in mind that drivers salaries vary by country and and are lower in most although some do very well such as the French. Looking at the ATC forum some controllers, such as the Spanish to very well, others not as well. Its the same with train drivers.
Last edited by Peter47; 3rd Jan 2012 at 07:48.
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Hi everyone.
I came across this thread so decided to sign up to give my 2p.
I'm a qualified train driver. Not a tube driver which to us is something entirely different. As pointed out 3 tube lines are automatic. But even on the ones that aren't speeds are relatively low and every signal has a trip cock arm so you will be stopped if you pass a red signal. Each year if you do this is reset.
National Rail. One key difference between the entry exams for pilots and national rail drivers is : you may only fail the entry assessments ONCE. Fail twice and it's game over FOR YOUR ENTIRE LIFETIME. I'm assuming I could of I had the funding take my private pilots licence test as many times as necessary
Someone said something about moving block signalling on the London to Manchester line. WRONG. Whilst some lines have automatic train protection, the train is still being driven manually. The West Coast Main Line has TASS but its designed to stop overspeeding on bends which the train tilts around. All trains are manually driven - the only automation is cruise control - and only some trains have that.
Drivers must pass a route exam on paper and a practical before being allowed to drive a route. This also takes place in the dark so route knowledge is extremely important. We are also subject to regular downloads from our version of the black box and an exam every year for the first two years. If you don't drive for 6 months you lose competence and must refresh routes / rules.
Of course this is nowhere as complex as a plane - and i'd love to be a pilot, but there are two of you fully able to fly the plane. On the trains there is only one driver. You do sometimes have a guard or conductor but they can't drive and have limited mechanical knowledge of the train and route in the event of a breakdown.
Eurostar drivers must speak French, must know Belgium french and English signalling systems as well as the TVM in cab signalling, regulations for the channel tunnel etc etc.
So as skilled as a pilot ? Of course not. But we all drive manually.
I came across this thread so decided to sign up to give my 2p.
I'm a qualified train driver. Not a tube driver which to us is something entirely different. As pointed out 3 tube lines are automatic. But even on the ones that aren't speeds are relatively low and every signal has a trip cock arm so you will be stopped if you pass a red signal. Each year if you do this is reset.
National Rail. One key difference between the entry exams for pilots and national rail drivers is : you may only fail the entry assessments ONCE. Fail twice and it's game over FOR YOUR ENTIRE LIFETIME. I'm assuming I could of I had the funding take my private pilots licence test as many times as necessary
Someone said something about moving block signalling on the London to Manchester line. WRONG. Whilst some lines have automatic train protection, the train is still being driven manually. The West Coast Main Line has TASS but its designed to stop overspeeding on bends which the train tilts around. All trains are manually driven - the only automation is cruise control - and only some trains have that.
Drivers must pass a route exam on paper and a practical before being allowed to drive a route. This also takes place in the dark so route knowledge is extremely important. We are also subject to regular downloads from our version of the black box and an exam every year for the first two years. If you don't drive for 6 months you lose competence and must refresh routes / rules.
Of course this is nowhere as complex as a plane - and i'd love to be a pilot, but there are two of you fully able to fly the plane. On the trains there is only one driver. You do sometimes have a guard or conductor but they can't drive and have limited mechanical knowledge of the train and route in the event of a breakdown.
Eurostar drivers must speak French, must know Belgium french and English signalling systems as well as the TVM in cab signalling, regulations for the channel tunnel etc etc.
So as skilled as a pilot ? Of course not. But we all drive manually.
Paxing All Over The World
Hi kentdav1973 and welcome aboard! That was a very helpful and practical post. I hope you continue to visit our high class cabin. 
