go around
When you work your way to seat OA L4key, you can run things the way you want.
Saying 'we should be glad we are being flown by proper pilots' just riled me a little - could be argued a little over-sensitive.
Shame about 'pull whats' comments - These would be worthy of a patronising flourish though!
Anyway, back OT.
IMHO in summary, if any member of the crew can, then they should. I think this thread lends weight to the argument that most PAX are 'concerned' about a GA. No one would hold it against the crew if they couldn't though, of course most of us realise safety comes first
(and we'd much rather them fly the plane so we didn't have to worry our pretty little heads)
Bet your last four shillings I would be concerned about a go round. It's all very well upfront where you can see ahead and know what's going on. Not so easy when you are in the back looking sideways and in ignorance. No problem with no announcement if it would be a distraction.
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I was SLF in the late 70's on a late evening/night Monarch B720, LTN - BLQ. Bologna was fogbound (it was February and common) so we diverted to VCE. Very bumpy approach, followed by a - what seemed to be a very low level - go around. Got down on the 2nd approach - again very bumpy and a hard landing. The ashen faces of the CC and the heavy wind and rain as we decended the steps said it all. I have to admit, the experience put me off flying for many years.
Fast forward to the early 90's. As a joke I was bought a trial flying lesson as a birthday present, my other half thinking it would be very amusing having a video of the event of me pooing my pants, knowing my fear of flying had not allowed us to go on "decent" holidays and this was payback
. With great fear, and not wanting to look a complete wimp (even though I felt it at the time) I went through with the lesson. I didn't realise that it's so different looking out of the front window! My other half was totally dismayed that I didn't jump out and kiss the ground when we taxied in. She felt even worse when I booked another lesson .
Nine months later I was the proud owner of a PPL. A month later we had the family holiday she wanted in Florida
. I carried on and got my night and IMC ratings, and she got her holidays.
The moral?
I learnt that those guys up front on that night in Northern Italy had far more training than I. They were good at their jobs (or they wouldn't be there) and whilst it wasn't an easy landing, we were never in as much danger as I thought. I've now done landings which were bumpy, sideways, in need of a go around etc, some on my own and some with passengers. It always seems worse to passengers be it in a 400+ seat 747 or a 4 seat Cessna 172. I have the luxury of briefing passengers individually before, during and after the event. Commercial crews don't have that luxury.
I also learnt that weather can be a fickle partner. Fog (and therefore mainly still air) as was in Bologna, followed by heavy wind and rain 20 minutes away.
Fast forward to the early 90's. As a joke I was bought a trial flying lesson as a birthday present, my other half thinking it would be very amusing having a video of the event of me pooing my pants, knowing my fear of flying had not allowed us to go on "decent" holidays and this was payback
. With great fear, and not wanting to look a complete wimp (even though I felt it at the time) I went through with the lesson. I didn't realise that it's so different looking out of the front window! My other half was totally dismayed that I didn't jump out and kiss the ground when we taxied in. She felt even worse when I booked another lesson .Nine months later I was the proud owner of a PPL. A month later we had the family holiday she wanted in Florida
. I carried on and got my night and IMC ratings, and she got her holidays.The moral?
I learnt that those guys up front on that night in Northern Italy had far more training than I. They were good at their jobs (or they wouldn't be there) and whilst it wasn't an easy landing, we were never in as much danger as I thought. I've now done landings which were bumpy, sideways, in need of a go around etc, some on my own and some with passengers. It always seems worse to passengers be it in a 400+ seat 747 or a 4 seat Cessna 172. I have the luxury of briefing passengers individually before, during and after the event. Commercial crews don't have that luxury.
I also learnt that weather can be a fickle partner. Fog (and therefore mainly still air) as was in Bologna, followed by heavy wind and rain 20 minutes away.
Not quite the same as learning to fly but prior to 9/11 when UK pilots were not banned from taking people in the cockpit I had 2 colleagues who didn't like flying. In fairly quick succession they both had cockpit rides down to landing. One came away still unhappy, the other was suddenly much more relaxed about flying.
Paxing All Over The World
In another country, my brother-in-law took a scedule service on a J41, when his son was LHS (later RHS).
My b-i-l had never been scared of flying, just took it for granted. After that 120 minute sector, he came away amazed and in awe of what his son could do and an abiding respect for FC.
If only more people could begin to understand.
My b-i-l had never been scared of flying, just took it for granted. After that 120 minute sector, he came away amazed and in awe of what his son could do and an abiding respect for FC.
If only more people could begin to understand.
Last edited by PAXboy; 8th Jan 2012 at 14:54. Reason: typographical errors
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We had a go-around a few years ago at Bangkok (the old airport) on Thai Airlines. Daylight, good weather and a very last-minute go-around. We spent a while circling the airport with no information from the crew. During that time all kinds of things went through my mind, all of which assumed some problem with the aircraft (e.g. landing gear broken etc). People were calm but there was a definite tension in the cabin. When the FC did make an announcement it turned out that even though he had been cleared to land the pilot saw that there was another aircraft on the runway so he had to go around. I still thank God that there was good visibility on that day.
I'd much rather that the crew are doing whatever they need to do and that a PA might not be top of their priorities but don't say that passengers aren't concerned in these situations because they are. They don't have to be screaming and praying out loud to be concerned.
I'd much rather that the crew are doing whatever they need to do and that a PA might not be top of their priorities but don't say that passengers aren't concerned in these situations because they are. They don't have to be screaming and praying out loud to be concerned.
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I've been involved in two go arounds. Both with BA. The first was on an Airbus coming into Glasgow and the second on a 737 into Gatwick. I have to say that the Airbus blasted off like a rocket.
In both cases there was concern in the cabin. Not least from me. My head was telling me that things were under control, but logic does not necessarily win when a smooth approach to landing (both occasions took place on lovely sunny days) are transformed into climbs at a rate I had not experienced before.
In both cases the crew handled matters very, very well. Within a minute of the plane levelling, there was a very short announcement. In both cases a previous plane had been slow to clear the runway. I may have been fortunate, but my experience is that these matters are handled very well by crews.
In both cases there was concern in the cabin. Not least from me. My head was telling me that things were under control, but logic does not necessarily win when a smooth approach to landing (both occasions took place on lovely sunny days) are transformed into climbs at a rate I had not experienced before.
In both cases the crew handled matters very, very well. Within a minute of the plane levelling, there was a very short announcement. In both cases a previous plane had been slow to clear the runway. I may have been fortunate, but my experience is that these matters are handled very well by crews.
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So this topic has come up again. I would like to ask a question to those professionals who have restated the important and entirely understandable point that the last priority of the flight deck crew in the case of a go-around is communicating what has happened to the passengers.
My question to you is: if there is no time to make a PA to passengers between initiating the go-around and touching-down from the second approach (and if you say this is a real possibility, I believe you), would it not be possible to explain what happened either while you taxi-in or, failing that if there is still no time, once you park up at the gate?
I agree that the PA from the SCCM in the initial stage of the go-around is a good idea, but it does not IMHO substitute an explanation from the pilots in the eyes of most passengers. (Also, if the standardised wording is: 'The captain will provide more information when he has time' and he then doesn't, I suggest that reflects badly).
Those who know a bit about aviation understand that a go-around is a safe and routine manoeuvre. I've never experienced one, but if I do (and part of me would like to!), I won't be concerned - I'll be relieved I'm being flown by true professionals. But those of us with that mindset are always the minority in an aircraft's cabin. Even if there is no explanation from the FD, I'll still disembark knowing that my safety was not jeopardised. But I bet many passengers will disembark thinking 'Well, something went very wrong there, didn't it? I'm not sure I'll fly with this outfit again'.
My point is: is it not always worth making sure those less-informed passengers leave the aircraft understanding why there was a go-around rather than leaving them to go home and tell the tale of their near-miss? And before you come back with 'flight safety before happy customer', I hear you and understand you .
My question to you is: if there is no time to make a PA to passengers between initiating the go-around and touching-down from the second approach (and if you say this is a real possibility, I believe you), would it not be possible to explain what happened either while you taxi-in or, failing that if there is still no time, once you park up at the gate?
I agree that the PA from the SCCM in the initial stage of the go-around is a good idea, but it does not IMHO substitute an explanation from the pilots in the eyes of most passengers. (Also, if the standardised wording is: 'The captain will provide more information when he has time' and he then doesn't, I suggest that reflects badly).
Those who know a bit about aviation understand that a go-around is a safe and routine manoeuvre. I've never experienced one, but if I do (and part of me would like to!), I won't be concerned - I'll be relieved I'm being flown by true professionals. But those of us with that mindset are always the minority in an aircraft's cabin. Even if there is no explanation from the FD, I'll still disembark knowing that my safety was not jeopardised. But I bet many passengers will disembark thinking 'Well, something went very wrong there, didn't it? I'm not sure I'll fly with this outfit again'.
My point is: is it not always worth making sure those less-informed passengers leave the aircraft understanding why there was a go-around rather than leaving them to go home and tell the tale of their near-miss? And before you come back with 'flight safety before happy customer', I hear you and understand you .
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Over the years I too have had the hankering for the go around experience. My wish was granted a couple of years back during a landing into Malta. The approach had been very bumpy and it took an age before we could see the ground. Just as we got over the runway and I was expecting touchdown the left wing dipped and immediately the power came on and we climbed out. It all went very smoothly and it was great to experience the surge from the engines.
We sat there for a few minutes wondering what had happened when a voice came over the pa system and uttered one word which sounded like "gosh". Because we had an all female cabin crew I reckoned it came from the flight deck and I began thinking that if it scared them what must some of the passengers feel like. A couple of seconds later the senior cc member took a call from the flight deck and shortly after that the captain advised us that we had picked up a tailwind just as we were about to land and, because the runway was wet, he decided to go around. I think I would have preferred not to have know that for the second approach and instead find out once we were on the ground.
Anyway, on the way out of the plane I noticed that that the senior cc members name tag said Goosh. The captain had obviously selected the wrong button when trying to communicate with her and managed to scare a few people in the process.
We sat there for a few minutes wondering what had happened when a voice came over the pa system and uttered one word which sounded like "gosh". Because we had an all female cabin crew I reckoned it came from the flight deck and I began thinking that if it scared them what must some of the passengers feel like. A couple of seconds later the senior cc member took a call from the flight deck and shortly after that the captain advised us that we had picked up a tailwind just as we were about to land and, because the runway was wet, he decided to go around. I think I would have preferred not to have know that for the second approach and instead find out once we were on the ground.
Anyway, on the way out of the plane I noticed that that the senior cc members name tag said Goosh. The captain had obviously selected the wrong button when trying to communicate with her and managed to scare a few people in the process.
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I am a nervous flyer (not visual to others - but crumbling inside).
Only fly a couple of times a year and experienced a GA in Munich on a BA flight. I hate the descent especially as the ground gets closer and I try and read my book but I cannot help looking out of the window. Landing is the worst part of the flying experience for me, I really do not like it.
Anyway, practically on the runway when whoosh, throw back time and back in the air. Surprisingly I amazed myself at how calm I was. Typical hubby cool as cucumber and absolutely no concern.
The captain did make an announcement (cannot remember the exact time he did this) but said it was due to another plane not getting out of the way on the runway in time so he decided to do a GA.
However despite my nerves, last week I flew alone from ABZ to MAN on one of those wonderful Embraer aeroplanes and actually watched through the window the whole descent and landing process at MAN without any nerves whatsoever!! That was without any red wine as well
Different story back up to ABZ though, typical bumpy descent as per usual which seems par for the course in Aberdeen!
Only fly a couple of times a year and experienced a GA in Munich on a BA flight. I hate the descent especially as the ground gets closer and I try and read my book but I cannot help looking out of the window. Landing is the worst part of the flying experience for me, I really do not like it.
Anyway, practically on the runway when whoosh, throw back time and back in the air. Surprisingly I amazed myself at how calm I was. Typical hubby cool as cucumber and absolutely no concern.
The captain did make an announcement (cannot remember the exact time he did this) but said it was due to another plane not getting out of the way on the runway in time so he decided to do a GA.
However despite my nerves, last week I flew alone from ABZ to MAN on one of those wonderful Embraer aeroplanes and actually watched through the window the whole descent and landing process at MAN without any nerves whatsoever!! That was without any red wine as well
Different story back up to ABZ though, typical bumpy descent as per usual which seems par for the course in Aberdeen!
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In all honesty I'd expect the GA to be somewhat of a worry to passengers. They are a normal flight manoeuvre though I guess pretty rare to be honest as the extra fuel burn is not at the top of airlines wish list nor the crews'. Their rarity means most won't experience one ever (beyond training some pilots might not), and for that reason they cone as a shock.
As standard as they are they do present a higher workload and sadly in busy airports with s short taxi in the PA may never come. That's a shame but it's also a fact and not indicative of any laissez faire attitude towards keeping passengers in the loop, but quite often at the end of a sector the Red Cap is already in the door before the parking checklist is complete (I exaggerate, but only slightly). I think its a situation when the CC are well placed to speak up on behalf of the FC as they will be reasonably aware of what is going on from experience. Though the reason may bot be known to them you will be certain that if something is seriously awry you'll be getting some short sharp PA's.
As standard as they are they do present a higher workload and sadly in busy airports with s short taxi in the PA may never come. That's a shame but it's also a fact and not indicative of any laissez faire attitude towards keeping passengers in the loop, but quite often at the end of a sector the Red Cap is already in the door before the parking checklist is complete (I exaggerate, but only slightly). I think its a situation when the CC are well placed to speak up on behalf of the FC as they will be reasonably aware of what is going on from experience. Though the reason may bot be known to them you will be certain that if something is seriously awry you'll be getting some short sharp PA's.
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FWIW
I've had 4 GAs as SLF (and a few as the PIC in lighties). It's always interesting to observe the reactions from the other pax. These range from sheer terror to absolute disregard. I'm sure that the former grouping are, shall we say, "nervous" passengers while the latter are likely dead-heading "front seaters". Much of the concern comes, in my opinion, from two factors:
1. Go-arounds are relatively rare. A guess would put them at well under 0.1% - that under 1 in a thousand.
2. Too many folk, especially our nervous pax, have watched and treat as 'the truth' the depictions we continue to see of aircraft falling out of the sky in material coming out of Hollywood and the like. (How many aircraft fell out of the sky at Y2K?)
On a couple of GAs, the flight deck explained what and why.
On another, after the (successful) second attempt, the skipper explained on the PA that the 2IC had done the approach, was still in training and hadn't done the approach correctly, so he (the skipper) made him do it again.
I should add that the skipper's humour was appreciated by the pax, all of whom were active aviators. The aircraft was a DC3 and the flight was a "nostalgic joy ride".
1. Go-arounds are relatively rare. A guess would put them at well under 0.1% - that under 1 in a thousand.
2. Too many folk, especially our nervous pax, have watched and treat as 'the truth' the depictions we continue to see of aircraft falling out of the sky in material coming out of Hollywood and the like. (How many aircraft fell out of the sky at Y2K?)
On a couple of GAs, the flight deck explained what and why.
On another, after the (successful) second attempt, the skipper explained on the PA that the 2IC had done the approach, was still in training and hadn't done the approach correctly, so he (the skipper) made him do it again.
I should add that the skipper's humour was appreciated by the pax, all of whom were active aviators. The aircraft was a DC3 and the flight was a "nostalgic joy ride".
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Chaps, any pilot will tell you the golden rule is:AVIATENAVIGATECOMMUNICATEsee what comes third. a go round like everybody has said is high work laod, even in little planes. youre talking to the tower, youre flying the plane (gear flaps airspeed) your postioning for missed approach (hopefully you have the plates out.or your figures are busy punching the keypad)..or slotting back into the circuit...etc..It gets busy even for two people. I was on a 747 of the eastern seaboard USA when lightning struck the nose, hell of a concussive bang... the pilots took an age to come on the PA, PAX bitched and moaned... but what were they doing?... trying to see properly again for one,... checking systems..comms running the check lists. I'd rather have them busy up front looking after the driving than tell me its ok.
Last edited by FlyingKiwi_73; 12th Jan 2012 at 01:58.
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GA
As an addition to the above....
I'm now running at three.
Two of them last month!
Both very well handled by the crews involved...
A nice tour of Southampton water due to a discontinued
approach, apparantly due to ATC vectoring us in high??? Humm???
Then, the rollercoaster into Manchester on the 28th, now that
WAS spectacular! We were actually informed before leaving
Munich that Manchester was bumpy, but...
All the way in and a VERY low go around / touch and go.
I'm not bad as a flyer, having got over a fear of flying a
few years ago, however, thinking we were down, then, off
and round again was actually quite draining, knowing we've
got to do the last 10 minutes again.
Kudos to the EZY crew first, then captain for a very reassuring
and detailed explanation not only of what had happened (Windshear)
but also, how the second approach pattern would work.
I did think I'd get another into SOU last week as well, but, everything
calmed down in the last 2 minutes.
I'm now running at three.
Two of them last month!
Both very well handled by the crews involved...
A nice tour of Southampton water due to a discontinued
approach, apparantly due to ATC vectoring us in high??? Humm???
Then, the rollercoaster into Manchester on the 28th, now that
WAS spectacular! We were actually informed before leaving
Munich that Manchester was bumpy, but...
All the way in and a VERY low go around / touch and go.
I'm not bad as a flyer, having got over a fear of flying a
few years ago, however, thinking we were down, then, off
and round again was actually quite draining, knowing we've
got to do the last 10 minutes again.
Kudos to the EZY crew first, then captain for a very reassuring
and detailed explanation not only of what had happened (Windshear)
but also, how the second approach pattern would work.
I did think I'd get another into SOU last week as well, but, everything
calmed down in the last 2 minutes.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 12th Jan 2012 at 14:58.
Was once on a B757 from Manchester to Heathrow, sitting just behind the wing. Pilot initiated a very early go-around as the flaps wouldn't extend and I was very amused to hear him make a PA explaining that ATC had asked him to go around.
After a flapless landing and taxiing back to the terminal, followed by a number of emergency vehicles, I swear I was the only pax onboard who had any idea what had happened!
After a flapless landing and taxiing back to the terminal, followed by a number of emergency vehicles, I swear I was the only pax onboard who had any idea what had happened!
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Have experienced several myself. Most common reasons for the go-around are traffic related, such as failure of the previous aircraft to clear the runway in time (either landing or taking off) or vehicular or construction traffic on the runway. From your description, it doesn't sound like a separation issue. In my experience, crew usually makes an announcement of some sort after they complete the go-around procedure. One time pilot came on and said he "didn't like the look of the vehicle that was on the runway." Another time was the failure of the previous aircraft that landed to clear the runway in time. Another time was much earlier in the approach due to too little separation with aircraft ahead of us in the pattern while landing during a snowstorm in Boston. In all cases, there was very little cause for concern.
