Ryanair pax held for 3 hours in 50C heat, then evac by slide
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Couple of points about 737NG...
1/ yes they can pressurize the water system with a small electric compressor, but only if AC power is available.
2/ no, there is no way the aircon system can supply only the flight deck and not both flt deck and cabin. (but both flight deck side windows are openable!)
3/ if they were awaiting a time slot for departure, without an APU or ground power, just how was the navigation system going to be ready for departure? That would be around 10 minutes worth of delay, after AC power was available.
4/ how were they planning to start the first engine after they got the OK to depart, without an APU or GPU?
5/ that MEL regarding departing with no operating APU is good if both IDGs are operating, and the airplane battery(s) are fully charged, which would not have been the case if the pilots were operating on standby power to drive the VHF-1 radio (amongst other stuff) for ATC comms during this extended delay, with no AC power available.
All this doesn't make sense, as reported.
1/ yes they can pressurize the water system with a small electric compressor, but only if AC power is available.
2/ no, there is no way the aircon system can supply only the flight deck and not both flt deck and cabin. (but both flight deck side windows are openable!)
3/ if they were awaiting a time slot for departure, without an APU or ground power, just how was the navigation system going to be ready for departure? That would be around 10 minutes worth of delay, after AC power was available.
4/ how were they planning to start the first engine after they got the OK to depart, without an APU or GPU?
5/ that MEL regarding departing with no operating APU is good if both IDGs are operating, and the airplane battery(s) are fully charged, which would not have been the case if the pilots were operating on standby power to drive the VHF-1 radio (amongst other stuff) for ATC comms during this extended delay, with no AC power available.
All this doesn't make sense, as reported.
Last edited by EW73; 18th Jun 2011 at 11:08.
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I previously worked for another LCC (i.e. not RYR), but general policy is to not use the APU for air conditioning while on the ground in a turnaround. The APU uses fuel, so of course it is cheaper to have it turned off. It sounds as though RYR policy is to only use the APU for engine start. Our airline allowed us to use the APU if things got too hot and cool the cabin; down to the crew to make the decision on the day. In my current airline, there is absolutely no problem in using the APU to cool the cabin.
If the aircraft you are on pushes back and starts its engines normally then it will have a working APU and consequently could have used that for cooling the aircraft. Normally if the aircraft starts its engines on the stand it is probably using an external air cart and the APU is inop. Most big airports will have air-conditioning systems on the stand and these can be plugged into the underside of the aircraft and cool air pumped into the cabin (which is better than the APU) but this is of course something which is charged to the airline.
So, it is all about money and looking after passenger comfort. Some care, others obviously do not.
If the aircraft you are on pushes back and starts its engines normally then it will have a working APU and consequently could have used that for cooling the aircraft. Normally if the aircraft starts its engines on the stand it is probably using an external air cart and the APU is inop. Most big airports will have air-conditioning systems on the stand and these can be plugged into the underside of the aircraft and cool air pumped into the cabin (which is better than the APU) but this is of course something which is charged to the airline.
So, it is all about money and looking after passenger comfort. Some care, others obviously do not.
@EW73 + no sponsor
I've seen FR aircraft operating without an APU in accordance with the MEL; others using ground-source airconditioning when available; and many using the APU if the GPU is unreliable or when outside air temps are below 10 or in the twenties. The fuel burn is not an issue; it is normal practice in FR to use the APU in these circumstances. Waiting for a slot on battery power alone for more than a few minutes is contrary to policy and most unlikely for all the reasons you mention!
Let's wait for the facts.
I've seen FR aircraft operating without an APU in accordance with the MEL; others using ground-source airconditioning when available; and many using the APU if the GPU is unreliable or when outside air temps are below 10 or in the twenties. The fuel burn is not an issue; it is normal practice in FR to use the APU in these circumstances. Waiting for a slot on battery power alone for more than a few minutes is contrary to policy and most unlikely for all the reasons you mention!
Let's wait for the facts.
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Let's wait for the facts. 
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Originally Posted by grimmrad
One Cathay Pacific flight that originated in Hong Kong and was diverted to Toronto before landing in New York sat for more than 10 hours at the tarmac.
All the evidence is available
Tech problems that were or weren't being fixed, remote stands, gates, delay for tugs, a non-functioning APU, a slot, 37 degrees, 50 degrees, less than 2 hours, more than 3 hours on the tarmac....
We don't know any facts; just allegations.
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Mike - we do know from the airline's own statement, however, that a passenger felt the need to open the door himself.
You have to admit that for any reasonable person to do this: (a) it must have been getting pretty damn hot in that cabin; and (b) the impression was given that the situation was not being sufficiently well handled by the crew.
You have to admit that for any reasonable person to do this: (a) it must have been getting pretty damn hot in that cabin; and (b) the impression was given that the situation was not being sufficiently well handled by the crew.
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"We don´t know ANY facts"
¿ Not even the NAME of the airline ?
OK we´re agreed on that.
After that, I reckon "200 hysterical Italians and Spaniards invented this "so-called" incident, the Spanish media in a fit of anti-Hibernian pique printed a series of unfounded allegations without making the slightest effort to check them in marked contrast to the renowned truthfulness of Fleet Street´s finest and the ACU, the Andalucian consumer agency which mentioned failure by Ryanair on this occasion to comply with transport law EU261/2004 and also commented that the company in question had a lot of form on this front was conjoined in a bout of collective hysteria with said 200 passengers."
Mark you that´s only speculation on my part.
There might for all I know have been a real incident, 200 passengers including a 14 month old baby might have been held on the runway at outer temperatures of 37C and inner temperatures around 50C for at least 2 hours.
But it is impossible to establish any of these 3 alleged facts because:
Nobody has any idea of the measured temperature at Seville Airport between 12:50 and 14: 40 on Thursday 16th June
Nobody has any objective experience of the likely increase (or "to be scientifically objective") decrease in temperature within a fully laden aircraft on the tarmac at the temperature that day; which latter fact is admittedly impossible to establish.
The fact that this particular company no longer has its operating data quoted on Flightstats, the most commonly consulted source of data for non-experts, means that nobody will ever know what the actual period under un sol de justicia was last Thursday.
So to summarise: Nobody will ever know.
My comment ?
How very convenient for some people. For whom ? Guess !
OK we´re agreed on that.
After that, I reckon "200 hysterical Italians and Spaniards invented this "so-called" incident, the Spanish media in a fit of anti-Hibernian pique printed a series of unfounded allegations without making the slightest effort to check them in marked contrast to the renowned truthfulness of Fleet Street´s finest and the ACU, the Andalucian consumer agency which mentioned failure by Ryanair on this occasion to comply with transport law EU261/2004 and also commented that the company in question had a lot of form on this front was conjoined in a bout of collective hysteria with said 200 passengers."
Mark you that´s only speculation on my part.
There might for all I know have been a real incident, 200 passengers including a 14 month old baby might have been held on the runway at outer temperatures of 37C and inner temperatures around 50C for at least 2 hours.
But it is impossible to establish any of these 3 alleged facts because:
Nobody has any idea of the measured temperature at Seville Airport between 12:50 and 14: 40 on Thursday 16th June
Nobody has any objective experience of the likely increase (or "to be scientifically objective") decrease in temperature within a fully laden aircraft on the tarmac at the temperature that day; which latter fact is admittedly impossible to establish.
The fact that this particular company no longer has its operating data quoted on Flightstats, the most commonly consulted source of data for non-experts, means that nobody will ever know what the actual period under un sol de justicia was last Thursday.
So to summarise: Nobody will ever know.
My comment ?
How very convenient for some people. For whom ? Guess !
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So to summarise: Nobody will ever know.
My comment ?
How very convenient for some people. For whom ? Guess !
My comment ?
How very convenient for some people. For whom ? Guess !
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One complaint, allegedly, from passengers is that despite the heat, water wasn't handed out, except to babies amd small children.
Given that the potable water is unlikely to be drinkable unless boiled, how much bottled water do FR carry. I can't imagine they sell much so I suspect they carry very little.
Given that the potable water is unlikely to be drinkable unless boiled, how much bottled water do FR carry. I can't imagine they sell much so I suspect they carry very little.
Last edited by WetFeet; 19th Jun 2011 at 07:37. Reason: spelling
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Given that the potable water is unlikely to be drinkable unless boiled
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Not sure if this adds new info..
Ryanair passengers suffer dehydration after Sevilla delay | Olive Press Newspaper | News
"An 18 month old baby was treated for dehydration while several adults fainted following the delay, which occurred after a compressor failed."
Ryanair passengers suffer dehydration after Sevilla delay | Olive Press Newspaper | News
"An 18 month old baby was treated for dehydration while several adults fainted following the delay, which occurred after a compressor failed."
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Ready or not??
This aircraft was hardly "ready" to leave if engineers were working on it and ATC would have been so advised.
Therefore the doors should have been disarmed if it was on stand and "tech". The front steps should have been lowered and also steps could have been positioned at the rear door as well.......at cost to FR.
To answer your question WetFeet a 737 will carry whatever bottled water it's current bar packing plan allows it to and is based on previous sales. It will not be enough for 200 people in a delay situation such as this.
However FR, as does any carrier, has a duty of care to it's pax and crew. The SCCM should have been on the Captain's case requesting a catering uplift of water to be distributed on the ground in this situation if potable water was not available.......also at cost to FR.
That is effective CRM and apparently lacking here. I have never worked for FR but assume CRM is taught and therefore practiced.
The decision to put forward anything relating to pax welfare to company Ops rests with the Captain.
Edited to correct rubbish grammar/spelling. My post assumes the press release quoted above is accurate.
Therefore the doors should have been disarmed if it was on stand and "tech". The front steps should have been lowered and also steps could have been positioned at the rear door as well.......at cost to FR.
To answer your question WetFeet a 737 will carry whatever bottled water it's current bar packing plan allows it to and is based on previous sales. It will not be enough for 200 people in a delay situation such as this.
However FR, as does any carrier, has a duty of care to it's pax and crew. The SCCM should have been on the Captain's case requesting a catering uplift of water to be distributed on the ground in this situation if potable water was not available.......also at cost to FR.
That is effective CRM and apparently lacking here. I have never worked for FR but assume CRM is taught and therefore practiced.
The decision to put forward anything relating to pax welfare to company Ops rests with the Captain.
Edited to correct rubbish grammar/spelling. My post assumes the press release quoted above is accurate.
Last edited by lowcostdolly; 20th Jun 2011 at 12:40.
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You can dispute the facts all you like, but a tube with little or no circulating air containing up to 189 pax each with a body temp of around 36C added to the ambient temperature and the additional solar heating would definitely be an uncomfortable place to be and 45C is not an unreasonable figure under such circumstances.
I'm surprised there wasn't a riot, I guess the pax are used to being given an uncomfortable experience by now.
I'm surprised there wasn't a riot, I guess the pax are used to being given an uncomfortable experience by now.
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APU policy
Actually FR policy is that the APU can be used for passenger comfort if the ambient temperature is warmer than +25 degrees celcius or colder than +5 degrees celcius.
Never let the facts get in the way of agood story.
Never let the facts get in the way of agood story.
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well ..
Lets wait for the facts then hey ? then again the CEO of the airline concerned never let the facts get in the way of anything. Been in similar situation an deplaned / replaned after discussion with ops .. it's called treating your clients with respect rather than contempt.