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BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions V

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BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions V

Old 19th Apr 2011, 11:42
  #601 (permalink)  
 
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Reasonable

Afternoon all,

This is linked to the thread but I want to use it for study too. One of the items linked to the dispute is the suspension and dismissal of employees. Now if all goes well through the talks, then it appears that there maybe some form of alternative dispute resolution, which will look into individual cases for fairness.

I am interested in what the reasonable person would do in some hypothetical situations and have made up a simple survey to ask some questions.

It would be great if you could have a go. If you think it is rubbish or inappropriate, then please let me know.

Regards,

Bulbs.

Range of Reasonable Responses Test for Employee Misconduct Survey
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 12:08
  #602 (permalink)  
 
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Survey

L-Bulbs.

I took a look at the link to your survey, not intending to fill it in - just to look. I then decided, why not, I will fill it in.

However after 2-3 questions I stopped for two reasons.

Questions like this cannot be answered without the context and also the employee’s background; both of which are missing.

For example,
An employee repeatedly ignores a work colleague when approached on issues not related to work
. On the face of it this seems quite minor and also it's non work related. However if the context was that the work colleague was their line manager and the employee was ignoring them when they were simply asking after their welfare, such as how are your family? etc it puts it in a slightly different field as far as I am concerned. Not dismissal material, but certainly worthy of a chat and possible warning about attitude and conduct as it would seem to be an indicator of some other problem.

However if it were two colleagues working together and one was trying to get on with their work whilst the other was continually trying to engage them in chit, chat about issues outside work that was stopping them achieve their roles within the company, this is entirely different.

Also as I read on and on it was clear that there was an objective to these questions as they get more and more specific and include more and more detail which could be considered subjective (certainly seems to be telling the 'facts' from the opinion of the dismissed employee, rather than the company) therefore I feel I am being led to answer in a certain way, because that is the way the facts are being presented. However I am old enough and have been a union rep and manager long enough to know when I am being led.

You could ask a question ' an employee was repeatedly asked by their supervisor NOT to open the door to let in fresh air, despite this fact the employee did open the door but only a few inches and only for 30 seconds.
No Action
Verbal Warning
Written Warning
Written Warning with Sanction
Dismissal


However, if you omit the fact that the employee was cabin crew, the supervisor their CSD and the door in question on the aircraft which was at FL350.....I am sure it would be a different outcome.

I suggest you let these questions be answered by the independent review board, as they will/should see all the facts and evidence (direct and indirect). The employee will give their version one way, the company another way - somewhere in-between lies the truth.

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Old 19th Apr 2011, 14:54
  #603 (permalink)  
 
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Ops_Room_Junkie

Thanks for the feedback and I will try to amend. What I was attempting to do was to ask questions that align to the Acas CoP for disciplinary items. All I can say is that it in no means a way to lead anyone into anything. However as a rep, I am going to say things in a way (even subconsciously) that will not be neutral and I need to adjust them for it to be worthwhile.

I will have another go at the questions as I am interested to see what the man on the Clapham Omnibus would think.

Again, thanks for your comments.
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 15:23
  #604 (permalink)  
 
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Good Luck with the Survey

Bulbs.

Good luck - a hard thing to do, I wish you all the best with it.
I am glad you took the feedback as it was intended, it was not meant to be critical of the hardwork you had done.

The thing is with such matters, no two cases will ever be the same. Despite the fact the the 'facts' that are provable and submittable from both sides may be identical, there are usually many other 'factors' which are present and relevant that really paint the picture in terms of motivation, intent and history.

ORJ
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 15:48
  #605 (permalink)  
 
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ORJ

I have adapted some of the questions and locked it (hopefully) so you cannot answer more than once. It now gives the results too.

If I can ask you to have another look to see if you feel that any questions are misleading or inappropriate? If it is all rubbish, then I will have to clear the results and start again.

When I was looking into the range of reasonable responses, I just wanted to know what the range was and how it was used. Obviously the range is no action to dismissal, but how that would be applied. Simplistically it would be for being sacked for saying hello, to being let off for setting fire to the office in a fit of rage and how the average person would see misconduct compared to a management/HR team. I also wanted to see if any pattern of change happened as grades increased, or even as an individual progressed though a career. However, survey monkey only lets you have 10 questions for free!

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to help and I will let you know if it helps me get a diploma or certificate
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 16:15
  #606 (permalink)  
 
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From I.A.T.U. Butler on the CC forum:
The legacy at BA as at Aer Lingus, is a company racked with industrial relations problems, but worse in some aspects, as Aer Lingus pilots did not get involved in the cabin crew dispute there. In fact quite the opposite, they supported their cabin crew.
So the pilots are only "involved" if they don't support the cabin crew. Supporting the CC is being "neutral"
I love these unbiassed opinions.
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 16:29
  #607 (permalink)  
 
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And as there is now the prospect of a settlement, the spinning begins. So BASSA will have "won" this dispute because it was about union busting.

It was in fact about cost-cutting. And Unite originally wanted to "protect the brand" and "keep BA premium".
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 16:38
  #608 (permalink)  
 
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Pensions

LB.. Interesting. Good luck with it. I've filled it in. I dunno how to do it, but for lots of the Q.s I wanted to "investigate/gain the facts". maybe the Q.s need to be longer??

On Pensions...

I note that the irrelevancy that is bassa has been ignoring BA's BIGGEST problem - a 4 Billion pound hole in its pension schemes. That is 4 thousand million pounds.

if I worked at BA I would want to throttle anyone like bassa who were putting my pension at risk. If I were, say, an Engineer, I'd want the old contract Spanish practices CSDs who regard themselves as strike leaders to be fired pronto.

They've already moved to CPI increases, rather than RPI.

Not a peep out of bassa. Sleeping under the tomato plants? Maybe still recovering from Brighton going up and Southampton now looking unlikely to be promoted?
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 16:50
  #609 (permalink)  
 
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AO

Cheers. I have tried to get a gut feeling response when you look at a question as it is and how the Clapham Omnibus man would (is that a white van driving Sun reader, or middle class supervisor now?) respond. Thanks for taking the time.
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 17:16
  #610 (permalink)  
 
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Done, as best I could, and trying very hard not to let my feelings on the BA dispute influence my answers.

However, all data is good data ... until proven otherwise!
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 17:30
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Litebulbs

how the Clapham Omnibus man would (is that a white van driving Sun reader, or middle class supervisor now?) respond.
If they are on an omnibus LB, they are more likely to be like me - old enough to use my Freedom Pass!

Roger.
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 18:05
  #612 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
Done, as best I could, and trying very hard not to let my feelings on the BA dispute influence my answers.

However, all data is good data ... until proven otherwise!
That is an interesting comment. Is it ok for an employer to become less reasonable due to circumstance? Would the actions carried out by a party in a dispute, give a court more ground for lenience when judging a case?

Discuss
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 18:06
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Originally Posted by Landroger View Post
If they are on an omnibus LB, they are more likely to be like me - old enough to use my Freedom Pass!

Roger.
You are as young as the laws that you live to!
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 18:44
  #614 (permalink)  
 
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@ LB ...
Is it ok for an employer to become less reasonable due to circumstance? Would the actions carried out by a party in a dispute, give a court more ground for lenience when judging a case?
You're stretching my point ...

I'm a mildly pi§§ed off SLF. I tried to answer as I would as the employer, given what I've learned over the last couple of years.

1. Yes, I would perhaps be less 'reasonable' if faced with a succession of cases of 'ill-dicipline', especially if warnings had been given generally to the workforce. However, as I don't know that happened in the BA/BASSA case, I tried to play a general scenario when answering the questions.

2. Any party in a dispute surely has to play by the basic rules? That would include not intimidating other personnel at the workplace etc etc. Likewise the company in a dispute should conform to extant agreements, such as agreed disciplinary procedures. It would seem to have been a bit one-sided in those respects.

Of course, if I had been the CEO a few years back, we would never have reached this position
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 19:54
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Meanwhile, on Planet Unreality [aka the CC Thread on a bad day] ...
BA have not got all that they want. They wanted to neuter the unions by tackling the UK's largest trade union branch - BASSA. Once defeated all other trade unions and "associations" in BA would be cowed.

It hasn't happened. And in spite of all the sycophantic gloss and spin that the usual suspects here, try to justify their entrenched positions over several years of postings on this forum predicting the end of BASSA, the fact is the company is having to negotiate with the union. That in itself is a victory.
It's quite nice here on Planet Earth, especially as I'm flying BA next week for a nice long holiday
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 21:00
  #616 (permalink)  
 
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It is gift to be able to argue like I.A.T.U. Butler does on the other thread
How supposedly intelligent people can be duped in such a way with rhetoric and propaganda more akin to North Korea, than a blue chip company in the 21 st century, is beyond me.
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 21:16
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Textbook BASSA spin. It's about union busting.... We've won... You'll be next... The pilots!!!!
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 21:57
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The Butler seems to think that ONLY the pilots volunteered to help. Going on what I read here and other fora, because one volunteered it did not necessarily mean that you flew, only that you released someone else to fly by covering their job.

I also disagree with him that BA were involved in a union-busting exercise. I am of the opinion that the non strikers are more likely to wish to see BASSA busted. A replacement is desperately needed, whether this be Unite themselves or the likes of the PCCC, I have no opinion. On the contrary, I am fearful that KW will give too much away to BASSA. I fear that this would seriously hinder any further co-operation between BA and the VCCC in the future.


LB pm sent.

Last edited by Dawdler; 19th Apr 2011 at 22:15.
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 22:15
  #619 (permalink)  
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I was intrigued by this comment by the mods on the other thread

I.A.T.U. Butler, one more blatant breach of the rules and youŽll have to get yourself yet another new username.
Can't help but wonder if this is a BASSA person who at the start of this was boasting elsewhere that he had over 200 email addresses so could keep generating new usernames on this site!
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Old 19th Apr 2011, 22:18
  #620 (permalink)  
 
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KW has a very difficult balancing act. A deal is needed to bring closure so the business can move on, and he'll have to give something to BASSA for a deal to be palatable and so they don't lose too much face.

However, taking the temperature of non-CC BA staff there is a very strong sentiment that whilst BASSA has lost in terms of not securing a reversal of the crewing changes and the dissolution of Mixed Fleet, BASSA's behaviour has been so abhorrent it must also be seen to have lost and should be given any concessions which it can use to claim victory. Put another way, BASSA has to learn that throwing hissy fits doesn't get you anywhere.
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