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BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions V

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BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions V

Old 22nd Apr 2011, 12:24
  #661 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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Posts: 88
I looked at Litebulbs; survey, but I rally can't be bothered to fill it in because the questions are so obviously designed to ensure the answers put BA in a bad light. Let me just re-phrase a couple of them. For example:-

1. An employee, repeatedly ignores a work colleague in a similar job role, when at work and working in a customer facing role and approached on issues not related to work.

An employee's locker is searched randomly in line with company policy and some low value company items are found. Similar items have been going missing for the last few months. The employee admitted to putting the items into the locker, but claimed he never intended for the items to be removed from company premises.

An employee has been repeatedly requested to smarten up in appearance (non uniform position) and attend to his personal hygiene as other members of staff have spoken to management, to meet the requirements of line management, with the reason being because there was a possibility of meeting third party clients, but not as a representative of the company

An employee had very strong religious beliefs and openly shared views whenever in conversation with fellow employees who had asked him to desist. The line manager repeatedly requested that the employee kept all views private unless asked, but request was ignored

An employee has been involved in a fight. This employee struck the other and a fight ensued. Witnesses say that a heated discussion was taking place where another employee was making accusations about fiddling the books to exceed sales targets. The employee has been employed for two years and has been the best sales person that the company currently employs. (lets be even handed, in the last question you said that he didn't start the fight.)

Or possibly another couple of questions that may be pertinent to this thread:-

An employee is recorded on surveillance camera damaging a colleagues car in the company car park. When asked about the incident, he first denies it and then says the other person deserved it,

An employee repeatedly refuses to follow the instructions of his manager, saying he has far more important things to be doing.



Its why I have such a low opinions of unions - (having once been in Amicus myself). There is truth, and then there is the union's truth - post manipulation.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 12:47
  #662 (permalink)  
 
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Landroger
To use tha Australian term, they would all have been better off if the GS had been the proverbial "Drover's Dog."

Although it had been around since the 1940s, usually as a less than flattering term, it became more widely used after Bill Hayden infamously commented in 1983 that a drover's dog could have led the party to victory.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 13:01
  #663 (permalink)  
 
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pvmw

All I can say is that it is not my intention to put BA in any light, but you will have to take my word on that; or not.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 14:10
  #664 (permalink)  
 
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All I can say is that it is not my intention to put BA in any light, but you will have to take my word on that; or not.
Forgive my cynicism!! However.....

My interpretation of every question was that is was phrased to ensure that no reasonable person would say "Dismissal". Phrase the questions a little differently, or add a couple of words to tilt the bias the other way slightly and dismissal certainly becomes an option.

As this is a thread which is discussing employees who have been dismissed for gross misconduct - bullying, vandalism, refusing to work as requested - and where every question is designed to make it appear that dismissal is an unreasonable choice then....??

To me it clearly demonstrates a bias - intentional or subconscious.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 16:02
  #665 (permalink)  
 
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pvmw

If you take the survey, as 76 people have, you will see the actual results to date. As the questions are not based on the current dispute, you will see that dismissal has been chosen by some, as the outcome for a fair percentage of the questions.

If I had wanted to ask questions about the current dispute, I would have done, but then it would have been with an intention to act as you state. My reason for choosing this thread on this site is that there have been numerous postings on all sorts of issues around the current dispute, so people have taken time to post on PPRuNe to share their thoughts. I was hoping that the same would be the case for this survey. There have been 5500 views of the thread since I posted the link and I thank the 76 people who have responded.

If I go and post blah, blah, blah and that BA are wrong, then I expect and deserve the full weight of any and all who have taken time to fill it in. I will not do that and again you have my word.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 16:31
  #666 (permalink)  
 
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My apologies for doubting your good intentions, it was easy to make the assumption that, as the survey was on a thread about the BA dispute, the questions were informed by it.

I'll go off and do it, tho' I still think the questions are lacking in sufficient detail to make a reasoned judgment possible. My responses will also be coloured by my experiences in my career. One example. In my previous job there was a fight between two staff. The younger, who had only been there a year or so, was out the door immediately and never seen again. The elder, been there many years, knew the right people, union man etc. got suspended for a week. In my mind, he was more culpable and should have been dismissed as well.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 16:45
  #667 (permalink)  
 
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pvmw

The lack of information has been the most common feedback to date. I will include it with the work I submit and will probably suffer when it is assessed. I was going to clear it and redo with fewer questions and a different structure, but I do not want to loose the 78 responses that I have had so far and I would probably be pushing the mods patience.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 16:59
  #668 (permalink)  
 
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Whichever, you gave it a good shot ... and kudos for trying.

It's an imperfect science, and easily manipulated to skew the desired result. I'm not in any way suggesting you did that, but that's one of the biggest difficulties when composing the questions and framing the scenario.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 18:45
  #669 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Litebulbs

The fighting question was an interesting one. In such cases in my factory days, both participants were immediately propelled through the main gates on an automatic three day's suspension - without pay. Usually what happened then was at least one of them (often both) was subsequently dismissed. This was in the 1950's-1960's

I have to add that this was a factory situation with lots of dangerous machines running, heavy castings and sometimes molten metal about, hence the immediate action. Your question I took to mean the incident took place in an office. When I read it again, it didn't specifically say that of course.

Best of luck with your studies.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 21:07
  #670 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
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BASSA is a branch and that means it is controlled (or supposed to be controlled) by Unite. BASSA does not have the power to authorise the calling of strike action. It is impotent, and especially so in the face of the many Unite VCC members.

BASSA and Unite are separate entities and there is no automatic link between the two; Unite could terminate the arrangement as its discretion, as you have been made aware, Duncan.

BASSA, in its current dysfunctional guise, will never be granted collective bargaining rights for Mixed Fleet.

The pay on MF will be reviewed in the normal course of events, is likely to have a basic + flight pay component which is at or a little more than other airlines offer to new hires, with a performance related element which gives the "approx 10% above market rate" for those who meet the criteria.

This 1,800 per month suggested, without any evidence (as usual) as a typical Easyjet new recruit cabin crew take home pay is fantasy as I set out using referenced quotes on the previous page.

Something in the 1,000-1,300 range is typical, and that is what MF delivers to most cabin crew currently, and this without the performance related element, which will become clearer during the course of the year.

Plus MFers are (almost) all saving 200 per annum in Union contributions which go into an unaccountable 1.5m per year BASSA black hole.

BASSA members and former members concerned about this illegal lack of accounts can email the Certification Officer to ensure this is properly addressed:

http://www.certoffice.org/Nav/Complaints.aspx

You'd be quite right to take your skills elsewhere STC if you could get a better deal there; but until there has been a full year of earnings, and the performance-related element of the package is fully evidenced, it's hard to say what your total remuneration will be, which I appreciate mustn't be easy when times are tight; however, the basic plus flight pay and Duty Free commission does seem to be the same or more than Easyjet and Virgin offer, and they don't have performance related options on top of that.

I really hope that MF continues to be the success it appears to be becoming and that as a consequence of that the bonuses will ensure that the market rate plus 10% can be adhered to for those crew who exceed expectations.

Judging by BASSA's success in "negotiating" a better deal for its current membership, I wouldn't be signing up to BASSA very fast.

Why entrust my financial future to a bunch of legacy fleet longhaul CSDs earning twice/three times my wage with most of my Union dues going direct to the Labour Party rather than to providing Union administration and support services?

Anyway, I hope Mixed Fleeters are treated reasonably by BA and in the interim are able to influence management directly to ensure transparency about the likely levels of performance related bonuses which should address many of the very valid concerns people like STC set out, and hopefully provide the financial rewards originally set out to those who joined the new fleet.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 21:12
  #671 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
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From another thread, an illustration of the twisting of words.

Originally Posted by Smell the Coffee
Pay - shocking; consider yourself lucky if you take home over 1100
That is quite different from what tomkins wrote:

Originally Posted by tomkins
Smell the coffee was not saying that 1100 was a monthly average ,he said you would be lucky to achieve this figure.....implying that some months you may earn less.
There was no implication from STC that you may earn less than 1,100.

While it may be the case, there is no evidence in Smell the Coffee's statement that "you would be lucky to achieve [1100]"; what was clearly stated was that MF crew would be lucky to EARN MORE than 1100 after tax. A very different perspective.

My understanding is that BF did NOT offer market rate + 10% when compared to currently employed equivalent staff; it was market rate when compared to equivalent current UK hiring packages at other airlines.

And BA's package will include the performance bonus about which we haven't enough data to make a judgement.

That's why your example of Easyjet crew taking home a not unimpressive 1,800 net isn't a valid comparison (if indeed you can provide any tangible evidence new recruits get paid this); that would require a basic of 18,000ish not including flight pay etc. so at least 25,000 total gross per annum so it cannot be accurate, based on (anecdotal) evidence presented below:

I can only find info on Easyjet from the dreadful cabincrew.com site, which states new recruits start on 10,207 gross plus an estimated 5,103 as flight pay - so about 15,500 per annum gross plus Duty Free sales on top of that. After they are confirmed as permanent, they can expect another 2,000 per annum (and I think there's a similar step change for MF crew after a certain period of employment).

CabinCrew.com: EASYJET NEW RECRUITS WAGES

From that perspective it does seem BA's 17,000-20,000 per annum is a little better than market rate, possibly not quite 10% more, but certainly not outside that ballpark.

I don't know what the MF monthly 1,100 net works out at gross, especially when you consider that flight pay is partially tax free. But over twelve months it amounts to 13,200 net, I estimate around 15,500 gross. If you then add in four quarterly payments of 500 as the performance related incentive component, and any additional Duty Free sales, then that gets us right to the 17,000-20,000 per annum range, which is what is quoted in the BA MF ad below:

Cabin Crew Latest Jobs - Updated Daily with cabin Crew Jobs

Originally Posted by BA MF Cabin Crew Advert
Total Reward Package Cabin Crew: c17,000 - 20,000pa includes basic salary, elapsed hourly pay and performance related incentive reward.

Of course as more longhaul and 747 routes move to MF then the flight pay proportion should increase, ensuring that across the year things do improve for MF. I would imagine the clientele on BA spends more on in flight Duty Free than an equivalent bmi or EasyJet passenger?

The only comparative data I could easily find was for Virgin (positions now filled), in the same link recruiting at a base of 11,564 gross p.a but that does not include flight pay or performance bonus; what it does do is illustrate that BA are not wildly out of kilter with prevailing alternative employers. I have no doubt that other airlines recruiting in the UK (eg Emirates/ flybe /EasyJet) pay less well than Virgin, and have other drawbacks not encountered by those working for BA (eg less longhaul flight pay component, less duty free commission, less attractive routes).

Market Rate plus 10% would have been based on the levels of remuneration for new roles available in the market at the time the offer was made (I believe this was in mid/late 2009).

Inflation will have eroded this already (by about 5%, or 800/year) in real terms. I do think that BA needs to be more transparent about the levels of likely performance bonus for MF crew as this does seem to be where the 10% differentiation is expected to come from.

I think it is clear BA needs to ensure its MF crew are remunerated at a level which slightly exceeds market rate. The performance related component and the increased proportion of longhaul and new routes may well balance this out across the year. It is simply too early to tell.

BA Cabin Crew Managers are now a lot closer to those they manage and valid concerns about pay will be directly referred to senior management and that changes can be made when appropriate, without the involvement of a meddling Union Branch.

Let's hope MF does get some sort of collective representation soon from a non-dysfunctional collective bargaining entity, perhaps Unite itself or possibly PCCC (though I don't see any evidence yet that PCCC is capable of performing such a role). Without wishing to stray OT, there is an open market for collective representation and the BASSA leadership does not hold a monopoly on such roles!

Having some sort of business-minded collective representation is important in lower paid, cyclical industries and especially where employees are positioned in multiple locations.

It is clear that the passenger feedback for MF is broadly positive, and the savings made elsewhere in the company and within the legacy fleet (despite the largely neutralising effect of the costs of the strike) are slowly returning BA back to modest profitability, and that bodes well for the performance component of the package. Long may that continue.

P.S. What does I.A.T.U. stand for? Possibly I Am Totally Unhinged?
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 21:43
  #672 (permalink)  
 
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VintageKrug

P.S. What does I.A.T.U. stand for? Possibly I Am Totally Unhinged?
Your guess is probably more appropriate, but I'm afraid it's rather more prosaic than that VK. Possibly before your time but think seventies (?) sitcom with Reg Varney - On the Buses - with Varney playing the part of a wide boy driver called Butler. Psychotic Inspector would endlessly repeat;

"I 'ate you Butler!" Geddit?

Roger.
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Old 22nd Apr 2011, 22:36
  #673 (permalink)  
 
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For the younger reader it's here, at 6:10 into the clip:http://
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Old 26th Apr 2011, 06:40
  #674 (permalink)  
 
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It's gone very quiet on both this and the other thread - signs that the storm has finally blown itself out, or the calm before the (final) storm.....or are other factors and powers now in play
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Old 26th Apr 2011, 06:55
  #675 (permalink)  
 
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I would guess the factors and powers are simply that it's a 4 day bank holiday weekend in the UK and elsewhere and everyone has better things to be doing!
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Old 26th Apr 2011, 13:38
  #676 (permalink)  
 
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Was there any feedback from the person who requested to see the BASSA accounts? It must be well past the thirty day limit now.
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Old 26th Apr 2011, 17:20
  #677 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
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I am afraid we must assume that Bassawitch has been unsuccessful in persuading BASSA to observe it's obligations under TU regulations. We have yet to be told whether other avenues are being pursued.
On the other hand, the member may have been shocked speechless by the figures or the fact that they finally did comply. Perhaps we will never know.
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Old 27th Apr 2011, 06:50
  #678 (permalink)  
 
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I recall BASSAwitch gave an update last week that he/she was still making enquiries with the Certification Officer to gain access to the BASSA accounts, which are legally required to be made available to current and past members of any Union.

Current or former BASSA members who are interested in knowing what happens to the 1.5m+ annual subs paid to Duncan Holley by the 9,000 or so (and falling) BASSA membership needn't wait for BASSAwitch to get a response, they can ask the Certification Officer directly to look further into the matter, via email:

Certification Officer - Complaints

In my view, the matter should also be directly pursued with BASSA and UNite's auditors as a matter of questionable professional conduct, as this is likely to bear more fruit, faster.

This was the last response from BASSA, back in March:

Originally Posted by BASSA Admin
Dear XXXXXX,

Your request for the audited accounts of the BASSA branch of Unite have been forwarded to me by XXXXX XXXXX. I have now had a chance to make enquiries on your behalf.

We have been made aware of a campaign on various discussion forums to expose alleged financial irregularity involving this branch. Your correspondence appears to repeat these insinuations. I can assure you that these allegations are completely baseless and potentially libellous.We cannot agree with your assertion that these branch accounts have been requested by "many members". In fact your request is the first such made to the best of my knowledge.

We have been told by the branch secretary that the accounts you are seeking are not available at this time. If at any time in the future they do become available for members and ex members to view, we will endeavour to make that known to you. As is common practice we will always insist that you view such accounts unaccompanied on Unite premises and in the strictest confidence.

If there are any further queries you have on the accounts of this branch please get back in touch with me directly.

In the meantime I thank you for your concern and for your continued support of Unite the Union.

In solidarity,

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
There has been considerable focus on what BASSA "pays" its reps.

Setting aside whether you think they should be paid or not (and personally I don't think its unreasonable to be paid something if you are delivering a valuable service to members) DH has stated he receives an "honorarium" of 25,000 per annum, which is 50% of his entitlement. Good for him.

However, this does mean he has deniability when asked what he is "paid" or what "salary" BASSA compensates him with, as an honorarium is not the same as pay/salary.

There are many other ways of "rewarding" people, as MPs have proven, from employing relatives for administrative tasks, expenses claims, travel and entertainment allowance (Bedfont, anyone?), company cars (eg a BMW M3), additional payments for other duties performed, pension contributions (an area of specific focus in this situation, given typical union remuneration structures), medical insurance and any payments in connection with his recent dismissal for gross misconduct.

All of which should be looked into, though are not legally required to be disclosed as part of a request for the accounts.

It will be interesting to learn of The Unhinged One has anything to say on this matter.
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Old 27th Apr 2011, 08:52
  #679 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Originally Posted by VintageKrug View Post
I recall BASSAwitch gave an update last week that he/she was still making enquiries with the Certification Officer to gain access to the BASSA accounts, which are legally required to be made available to current and past members of any Union.

Current or former BASSA members who are interested in knowing what happens to the 1.5m+ annual subs paid to Duncan Holley by the 9,000 or so (and falling) BASSA membership needn't wait for BASSAwitch to get a response, they can ask the Certification Officer directly to look further into the matter, via email:

Certification Officer - Complaints

In my view, the matter should also be directly pursued with BASSA and UNite's auditors as a matter of questionable professional conduct, as this is likely to bear more fruit, faster.

This was the last response from BASSA, back in March:



There has been considerable focus on what BASSA "pays" its reps.

Setting aside whether you think they should be paid or not (and personally I don't think its unreasonable to be paid something if you are delivering a valuable service to members) DH has stated he receives an "honorarium" of 25,000 per annum, which is 50% of his entitlement. Good for him.

However, this does mean he has deniability when asked what he is "paid" or what "salary" BASSA compensates him with, as an honorarium is not the same as pay/salary.

There are many other ways of "rewarding" people, as MPs have proven, from employing relatives for administrative tasks, expenses claims, travel and entertainment allowance (Bedfont, anyone?), company cars (eg a BMW M3), additional payments for other duties performed, pension contributions (an area of specific focus in this situation, given typical union remuneration structures), medical insurance and any payments in connection with his recent dismissal for gross misconduct.

All of which should be looked into, though are not legally required to be disclosed as part of a request for the accounts.

It will be interesting to learn of The Unhinged One has anything to say on this matter.
the BASSA reps claim a daily payment for attending meetings or doing anything connected to the union.

This is in excess of 100 per day and I think that the senior reps get 125 but cannot be 100% sure now.

Also lap tops, mobile phones, phone calls, are claimed.

There is no system of control and it may be that a rep pops into the office for 30 minutes has a chat and then claims a days allowance.

The taxation of this is not clear the Revenue have persued the BASSA reps in the past for full tax and Im pretty sure that an outstanding bill was paid from the BASSA funds.

DH should not be entitled to any of this but I would bet that he claims the maximum daily attendance every month plus his commission. When he was employed by BA he was earning as much as a senior BA Captain if all was taken into account - not bad from someone who hardly ever put his cabin crew uniform on

Last edited by vctenderness; 27th Apr 2011 at 08:54. Reason: typo
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Old 27th Apr 2011, 19:37
  #680 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Survey

I have closed the survey and thanks to those that took part and shared their views. Now for some statistical magic and opinion (but not on here)
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