BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions IV
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ChicoG
I think you may have been out of the country to long.Threshers went in to administration over a year ago,and you can't even get pick and mix from Woolworths any more,they have gone to. Which proves the point that no matter how established the brand economic realities will prevail.
I think you may have been out of the country to long.Threshers went in to administration over a year ago,and you can't even get pick and mix from Woolworths any more,they have gone to. Which proves the point that no matter how established the brand economic realities will prevail.
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Just a reminder... If you are going to accuse any group/person/organisation of behaving illegally you must work on the assumption that PPRuNe will hand over your IP address and whatever details we have on your account when the inevitable lawyers letter arrives - Try and demonstrate both care and common-sense please folks.
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Well the reply to BASSAswitch is certainly intriguing.
I assume his reply will point out that the very act of attempting to with hold accounts from a former member is legally speaking a financial irregularity, hence justifying the "campaign on various discussion forums".
BASSAswitch could presumably not reply to the letter and just let the 21 days elapse, although I can think of a few choice comments for the reply...
I assume his reply will point out that the very act of attempting to with hold accounts from a former member is legally speaking a financial irregularity, hence justifying the "campaign on various discussion forums".
BASSAswitch could presumably not reply to the letter and just let the 21 days elapse, although I can think of a few choice comments for the reply...
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The Clock Is Ticking
BASSA's reponse to BASSAwitch's enquiry for visibility of the Branch Accounts:
Well, I would try and remain calm in the face of that response.
They will of course be monitoring this forum, and annoyance will of course be music to their ears.
It's a shame, but hardly a surprise, that BASSA hasn't taken this opportunity to demonstrate its transparency.
BASSA is perfectly entitled to wait 28 days from formal request to permitting access, and so until that period has passed there is no issue whatsoever with BASSA withholding the information. It's a very different story after that period expires. So in your response:
1. It's well worth confirming back to BASSA the date on which you made the formal request of Unite to provide such accounts, and also explicitly stated the day on which you believe the 28 day period will expire.
2. I would also ask BASSA for any evidence/belief they may have of any "insinuations" made by you about alleged impropriety; no accounting irregularities have been alleged, and indeed this is an opportunity for transparency to put paid to any such allegations which may emanate from other parties. It's important you make that absolutely explicit.
3. Quote what you believe to be their responsibilities under section 30 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act, 1992.
4. I would copy your response (including a copy of the correspondence to date) to:
1. Unite
2. HW Fisher & Sons
3. Hard Dowdy
4. BASSA's own auditors (if different from the above)
5. The Certificating Officer
6. TUC
Best to call ahead and get actual names for the correct people/Audit Partners to write to in order to avoid delay.
I think any accounts shown to you will be extremely high level, so I would not expect you to be able to glean anything of much interest from them, even when/if you do get access. But all this obfuscation does put paid to the oft-made statement that BASSA's account are freely available for inspection at any time by any member who chooses to see them.
I am genuinely amazed that you are the only one of the alleged 8,975 members who wants to understand where their £1.5m-£2m per annum goes....!
I cannot see any requirement for you to sign a confidentiality agreement, and you appear to have the right to take copies of the document with you.
It's obviously worth mugging up on the whole of Chapter 3, which also deals with membership records as well as elections. You (or others) may wish to make similar enquiries about those aspects of BASSA's administration.
Section 30 governs your rights to view the branch accounts, and I have copied them below:
30 Right of access to accounting records.E+W+S
(1)A member of a trade union has a right to request access to any accounting records of the union which are available for inspection and relate to periods including a time when he was a member of the union.
In the case of records relating to a branch or section of the union, it is immaterial whether he was a member of that branch or section.
(2)Where such access is requested the union shall—
(a)make arrangements with the member for him to be allowed to inspect the records requested before the end of the period of twenty-eight days beginning with the day the request was made,
(b)allow him and any accountant accompanying him for the purpose to inspect the records at the time and place arranged, and
(c)secure that at the time of the inspection he is allowed to take, or is supplied with, any copies of, or of extracts from, records inspected by him which he requires.
(3)The inspection shall be at a reasonable hour and at the place where the records are normally kept, unless the parties to the arrangements agree otherwise.
(4)An “accountant” means a person who is eligible for appointment as a [F1statutory auditor under Part 42 of the Companies Act 2006].
(5)The union need not allow the member to be accompanied by an accountant if the accountant fails to enter into such agreement as the union may reasonably require for protecting the confidentiality of the records.
(6)Where a member who makes a request for access to a union’s accounting records is informed by the union, before any arrangements are made in pursuance of the request—
(a)of the union’s intention to charge for allowing him to inspect the records to which the request relates, for allowing him to take copies of, or extracts from, those records or for supplying any such copies, and
(b)of the principles in accordance with which its charges will be determined, then, where the union complies with the request, he is liable to pay the union on demand such amount, not exceeding the reasonable administrative expenses incurred by the union in complying with the request, as is determined in accordance with those principles.
(7)In this section “member”, in relation to a trade union consisting wholly or partly of, or of representatives of, constituent or affiliated organisations, includes a member of any of the constituent or affiliated organisations.
If BASSA fails to comply, you can then make a formal application to the Certification Officer to obtain a "declaration" to that effect, and then after that there is a court remedy if required.
Here is the information about the Certification Office:
www.certoffice.org/
It would be a sensible plan to speak now to a qualified accountant who you may wish to accompany you in due course.
BASSA wrote:
Dear XXXXXX,
Your request for the audited accounts of the BASSA branch of Unite have been forwarded to me by XXXXX XXXXX. I have now had a chance to make enquiries on your behalf.
We have been made aware of a campaign on various discussion forums to expose alleged financial irregularity involving this branch. Your correspondence appears to repeat these insinuations. I can assure you that these allegations are completely baseless and potentially libellous.We cannot agree with your assertion that these branch accounts have been requested by "many members". In fact your request is the first such made to the best of my knowledge.
We have been told by the branch secretary that the accounts you are seeking are not available at this time. If at any time in the future they do become available for members and ex members to view, we will endeavour to make that known to you. As is common practice we will always insist that you view such accounts unaccompanied on Unite premises and in the strictest confidence.
If there are any further queries you have on the accounts of this branch please get back in touch with me directly.
In the meantime I thank you for your concern and for your continued support of Unite the Union.
In solidarity,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Dear XXXXXX,
Your request for the audited accounts of the BASSA branch of Unite have been forwarded to me by XXXXX XXXXX. I have now had a chance to make enquiries on your behalf.
We have been made aware of a campaign on various discussion forums to expose alleged financial irregularity involving this branch. Your correspondence appears to repeat these insinuations. I can assure you that these allegations are completely baseless and potentially libellous.We cannot agree with your assertion that these branch accounts have been requested by "many members". In fact your request is the first such made to the best of my knowledge.
We have been told by the branch secretary that the accounts you are seeking are not available at this time. If at any time in the future they do become available for members and ex members to view, we will endeavour to make that known to you. As is common practice we will always insist that you view such accounts unaccompanied on Unite premises and in the strictest confidence.
If there are any further queries you have on the accounts of this branch please get back in touch with me directly.
In the meantime I thank you for your concern and for your continued support of Unite the Union.
In solidarity,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
They will of course be monitoring this forum, and annoyance will of course be music to their ears.
It's a shame, but hardly a surprise, that BASSA hasn't taken this opportunity to demonstrate its transparency.
BASSA is perfectly entitled to wait 28 days from formal request to permitting access, and so until that period has passed there is no issue whatsoever with BASSA withholding the information. It's a very different story after that period expires. So in your response:
1. It's well worth confirming back to BASSA the date on which you made the formal request of Unite to provide such accounts, and also explicitly stated the day on which you believe the 28 day period will expire.
2. I would also ask BASSA for any evidence/belief they may have of any "insinuations" made by you about alleged impropriety; no accounting irregularities have been alleged, and indeed this is an opportunity for transparency to put paid to any such allegations which may emanate from other parties. It's important you make that absolutely explicit.
3. Quote what you believe to be their responsibilities under section 30 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act, 1992.
4. I would copy your response (including a copy of the correspondence to date) to:
1. Unite
2. HW Fisher & Sons
3. Hard Dowdy
4. BASSA's own auditors (if different from the above)
5. The Certificating Officer
6. TUC
Best to call ahead and get actual names for the correct people/Audit Partners to write to in order to avoid delay.
Unite's auditors:
HW Fisher & Sons
http://www.hwfisher.co.uk/site/cms/c...p?category=256
Hard Dowdy
www.harddowdy.co.uk
It is not clear to me whether BASSA itself has engaged auditors to produce its own accounts; these may differ from the names above, as those relate to Unite's accounts (of which BASSA's numbers form a not inconsiderable part).
What is significant is that if the accounts cannot be produced in a timely fashion, then that is a most serious breach of Trade Union law, for which there could be significant legal repercussions.
Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992
That is the real issue at hand, not whether there has been any financial impropriety.
HW Fisher & Sons
http://www.hwfisher.co.uk/site/cms/c...p?category=256
Hard Dowdy
www.harddowdy.co.uk
It is not clear to me whether BASSA itself has engaged auditors to produce its own accounts; these may differ from the names above, as those relate to Unite's accounts (of which BASSA's numbers form a not inconsiderable part).
What is significant is that if the accounts cannot be produced in a timely fashion, then that is a most serious breach of Trade Union law, for which there could be significant legal repercussions.
Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992
That is the real issue at hand, not whether there has been any financial impropriety.
I am genuinely amazed that you are the only one of the alleged 8,975 members who wants to understand where their £1.5m-£2m per annum goes....!
I cannot see any requirement for you to sign a confidentiality agreement, and you appear to have the right to take copies of the document with you.
It's obviously worth mugging up on the whole of Chapter 3, which also deals with membership records as well as elections. You (or others) may wish to make similar enquiries about those aspects of BASSA's administration.
Section 30 governs your rights to view the branch accounts, and I have copied them below:
HM Government:
30 Right of access to accounting records.E+W+S
(1)A member of a trade union has a right to request access to any accounting records of the union which are available for inspection and relate to periods including a time when he was a member of the union.
In the case of records relating to a branch or section of the union, it is immaterial whether he was a member of that branch or section.
(2)Where such access is requested the union shall—
(a)make arrangements with the member for him to be allowed to inspect the records requested before the end of the period of twenty-eight days beginning with the day the request was made,
(b)allow him and any accountant accompanying him for the purpose to inspect the records at the time and place arranged, and
(c)secure that at the time of the inspection he is allowed to take, or is supplied with, any copies of, or of extracts from, records inspected by him which he requires.
(3)The inspection shall be at a reasonable hour and at the place where the records are normally kept, unless the parties to the arrangements agree otherwise.
(4)An “accountant” means a person who is eligible for appointment as a [F1statutory auditor under Part 42 of the Companies Act 2006].
(5)The union need not allow the member to be accompanied by an accountant if the accountant fails to enter into such agreement as the union may reasonably require for protecting the confidentiality of the records.
(6)Where a member who makes a request for access to a union’s accounting records is informed by the union, before any arrangements are made in pursuance of the request—
(a)of the union’s intention to charge for allowing him to inspect the records to which the request relates, for allowing him to take copies of, or extracts from, those records or for supplying any such copies, and
(b)of the principles in accordance with which its charges will be determined, then, where the union complies with the request, he is liable to pay the union on demand such amount, not exceeding the reasonable administrative expenses incurred by the union in complying with the request, as is determined in accordance with those principles.
(7)In this section “member”, in relation to a trade union consisting wholly or partly of, or of representatives of, constituent or affiliated organisations, includes a member of any of the constituent or affiliated organisations.
Here is the information about the Certification Office:
www.certoffice.org/
It would be a sensible plan to speak now to a qualified accountant who you may wish to accompany you in due course.
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VK
Can you see any logical reason why the union can require the accountant to sign a non-disclosure agreement but the member is allowed to take ( as many ?) copies as requested and there is no mention of applying non-disclosure to him/her.
This member could then ask an(other) accountant to review said documents.
P.S. Is Krug worth the investment ?
Can you see any logical reason why the union can require the accountant to sign a non-disclosure agreement but the member is allowed to take ( as many ?) copies as requested and there is no mention of applying non-disclosure to him/her.
This member could then ask an(other) accountant to review said documents.
P.S. Is Krug worth the investment ?
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Major 1990-1997.
Absolutely!!
---
I see BASSA very much stalling here...after the late summer's elections the current leadership team will no longer be in position. It's important that getting the accounts to the membership happens before the current leadership move on. It's a legal requirement.
You should certainly acknowledge the letter and ensure you are specific about requesting accounts used to support Unite's accounting statement dated 31 December 2009 and the three previous years, as it may be that they could claim they misunderstood your request, assuming it to relate to the more recent two years' of accounts whoch may (perfectly legally) still be in production/not yet signed off by the auditors.
Involving the auditors now by copying them in to correspondence is essential in order to expedite matters at the 28 day point.
Any sign of a ballot - that ten day McKluskey ultimatum is well past......
P.S. Is Krug worth the investment ?
---
I see BASSA very much stalling here...after the late summer's elections the current leadership team will no longer be in position. It's important that getting the accounts to the membership happens before the current leadership move on. It's a legal requirement.
You should certainly acknowledge the letter and ensure you are specific about requesting accounts used to support Unite's accounting statement dated 31 December 2009 and the three previous years, as it may be that they could claim they misunderstood your request, assuming it to relate to the more recent two years' of accounts whoch may (perfectly legally) still be in production/not yet signed off by the auditors.
Involving the auditors now by copying them in to correspondence is essential in order to expedite matters at the 28 day point.
Any sign of a ballot - that ten day McKluskey ultimatum is well past......
Last edited by VintageKrug; 22nd Feb 2011 at 06:54.
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Final Decisions
Notice
Take notice that on THURSDAY, 24 FEBRUARY, 2011 in COURT 70, at 10 O'CLOCK, Judgment will be given in the following.
APPEAL
From Appeal Tribunals
(Employment Appeal Tribunal)
A2/2010/0305 British Airways Plc -v- Mak and Ors.
Take notice that on THURSDAY, 24 FEBRUARY, 2011 in COURT 70, at 10 O'CLOCK, Judgment will be given in the following.
APPEAL
From Appeal Tribunals
(Employment Appeal Tribunal)
FINAL DECISIONS
A2/2010/0305 British Airways Plc -v- Mak and Ors.
failure is an option
The company I used to work for routinely failed tribunals, I think on the basis that it costs more to defend than pay up the limited compensation. Think that may even be factored in to the anticipated cost. So what significance is this ? From an employee's point of view it is pretty meagre stuff isn't it, and from the employers. irrelevant.
Yours, in solidarity
Yours, in solidarity
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Actually Mr Optomistic, BA has been fighting this one really hard.
BA makes some of our International crew retire at 45, not all, it depends on the destination they come from and the law in those countries.
This tribunal, if won by Miss Mak would mean that they have to pay her compensation but it will also mean that ALL International crew will have to be allowed to retire at the UK retirement age, which for some reason BA doesn't like.
So for me it is quite interesting as I personally feel it is unfair that they are made to leave at 45 and I thank notlangley for pointing it out that this case is in it's final stage.
Before equal opportunities, back only a few decades, BA used to make all female cabin crew retire at 35 while men could carry on until normal retirement. In this day and age that seems very strange and so does making Hong Kong crew retire early!! In my humble opinion.
I have to say that this is one good thing that Unite have done. In this, they are representing a member in a good way and how a union should be representing its members, for a change!!!
BA makes some of our International crew retire at 45, not all, it depends on the destination they come from and the law in those countries.
This tribunal, if won by Miss Mak would mean that they have to pay her compensation but it will also mean that ALL International crew will have to be allowed to retire at the UK retirement age, which for some reason BA doesn't like.
So for me it is quite interesting as I personally feel it is unfair that they are made to leave at 45 and I thank notlangley for pointing it out that this case is in it's final stage.
Before equal opportunities, back only a few decades, BA used to make all female cabin crew retire at 35 while men could carry on until normal retirement. In this day and age that seems very strange and so does making Hong Kong crew retire early!! In my humble opinion.
I have to say that this is one good thing that Unite have done. In this, they are representing a member in a good way and how a union should be representing its members, for a change!!!
Last edited by Betty girl; 22nd Feb 2011 at 16:15. Reason: To make a fellow poster happy
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The same Union and the same employer
Carol Ng, chair of the British Airways Hong Kong International Cabin Crew Association said over a year ago
Unite has shown our members unquestioned support over many years in their struggle for justice. This proves that ordinary people can fight injustices with the help of their union - and that strong solidarity across nations can help win for workers against employers like BA who mistreat their workforce.
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VK,
You are right it is not connected to the strike but the two people involved in this case, BA and Unite, are the same people involved in the strike!
Interestingly the Cabin Crew thread about BA and Bassa is called ''CC and BA Industrial relations'' and so is not only about the strike.
Thank you for your grammar lesson.
You are right it is not connected to the strike but the two people involved in this case, BA and Unite, are the same people involved in the strike!
Interestingly the Cabin Crew thread about BA and Bassa is called ''CC and BA Industrial relations'' and so is not only about the strike.
Thank you for your grammar lesson.
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Oh, good. Unite speaks ....
There's a surprise. Better luck next time, eh?
hahahahahahaha ... more fool you, then.
There's a surprise. Better luck next time, eh?
We have made every effort in prolonged negotiations to resolve this dispute. Throughout we have been guided by our representatives. If we could achieve a settlement then peace would at long last be at hand.
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"BA management needs to understand that it will never break the spirit of cabin crew, and that customer uncertainty and confusion will continue until it starts listening to its staff."
BA said "apart from a tiny minority of hard-liners" everyone wanted the dispute to end. "Should there be any further industrial action, we will implement our well-established contingency plans," a spokesman said.
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VintageKrug you have the reputation of someone who can dig out information.
Can you find out what "purpose" will be put to Unite members?_ By purpose I mean something that is not a continuation of the dispute that belongs or is attached to the strike that took place just over twelve months ago.
Here is a quote (made a few weeks ago) from the Guardian
Can you find out what "purpose" will be put to Unite members?_ By purpose I mean something that is not a continuation of the dispute that belongs or is attached to the strike that took place just over twelve months ago.
Here is a quote (made a few weeks ago) from the Guardian
BA argued to the Electoral Reform Services body, which oversaw the ballot, that Unite was breaching the Trade Union Act Labour Relations (Consolidation) 1992 by launching a ballot whose purpose was "unclear".
Last edited by notlangley; 23rd Feb 2011 at 08:29. Reason: getting rid of silly mistakes
They want to strike - let them. The promulgated BASSA view that they are working for an evil, bullying employer that dismisses BASSA members for trivial reasons should apparently be ignored when voting for what is likely to be unprotected strike action.
Perhaps they are relying on BASSA to save them. Good luck with that. They might ask themselves how many of the 80 dismissals (including the Branch Secretary no less) have BASSA thus far been able to save?
Perhaps they are relying on BASSA to save them. Good luck with that. They might ask themselves how many of the 80 dismissals (including the Branch Secretary no less) have BASSA thus far been able to save?
Question.....
On the assumption that bassa is run by something like a "branch cttee" or a "branch exec", how many of the current members of that cttee are actually employed by BA, and how many are ex- or never- employed by BA?
Someone out there must know......
I wonder if they have bothered to read Unite's Rule Book?
Someone out there must know......
I wonder if they have bothered to read Unite's Rule Book?
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"Strikers are deluded if they think they can win". And that's not my opinion, that's the opinion of Derek Simpson, Unite General Secretary:
www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=20902
www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=20902
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AO, The last list of BASSA reps put into the public domain listed about 30 BASSA reps. See the last page of this:
http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/AMICUS_News_Oct2009.pdf
Yesterday, Unite said that there had been 18 sackings and of these a third of the local union leadership had been sacked.
Aside from Duncan's well publicised sacking, the last estimate I heard was that about 7 reps had also been sacked.
The BASSA rule book is not available publicly.
http://uniteba.com/ESW/Files/AMICUS_News_Oct2009.pdf
Yesterday, Unite said that there had been 18 sackings and of these a third of the local union leadership had been sacked.
Aside from Duncan's well publicised sacking, the last estimate I heard was that about 7 reps had also been sacked.
The BASSA rule book is not available publicly.