I Don't believe it! Common sense1!

[Bally Heck]

Well here goes. Someone in a position of power (well a bit), talking sense.

BBC News - BA chairman attacks US airport security checks

Defies belief really. Perhaps I should retract it?

[MountainBear]

While I agree with his aims I think his premise is flawed.

America has always operated under a secure border theory. It is precisely because we have more stringent checks at the border that allows us to have less stringent checks internally. You catch the riff-raff before they get in, not afterward.

[NukeHunt]

MB,

If that were really true, then back in 2001 how did several Middle Eastern Fellows manage to get into the USA undetected despite their less than desireable intentions ?. Then they managed to take over 4 domestic flights........ So much for "You catch the riff-raff before they get in, not afterward." Yup 'cos it's pretty hard to catch them when they are a smoking hole in the ground.....

[Tokyo Geoff]

Originally Posted by MountainBear

America has always operated under a secure border theory. It is precisely because we have more stringent checks at the border that allows us to have less stringent checks internally. You catch the riff-raff before they get in, not afterward.

That has to be the most stupid thing I have read here for a while. You are sure there are no terrorists in the 300 million people living in the US? Terrorists don't have to be from foreign countries either - they can be homegrown too. The 7/7 bombers in England were English.

[MountainBear]

If that were really true

You both misunderstand me. I never said it was true. I said that is the theory. Like all theories there is a difference between it and practice. That theory didn't stop the OK bombings, either.

It doesn't change the fact that this has always been, since our founding, the basic theory we have operated under.

edit: and BTW I'm not saying that I agree with the theory either, or that I support it, etc.

I do have a problem however when the chairman of BA steps up and displays such a basic misunderstanding of American security philosophy.

[Huck]

Welcome to PPrune, Mountainbear.

It is nothing if not predictable.

[Two's in]

Airport Security is about one thing and one thing only - convincing the voters that the officials they elected are doing something about terrorism. It doesn't have to work, you only have to fool the voters into thinking that it works. 9 years and counting until the great Naked Emperor is revealed.

[doubleu-anker]

Then the chairman of BA has just moved himself way up front on the list of terrorist threats, as far as the TSA are concerned.!!

God bless America

[remoak]

America has always operated under a secure border theory

Except the one that joins it to Mexico...

[PAXboy]

The American theory of 'a secure border' is only a couple of decades out of date but they will continue with it until there has been at least one more significant exposure of it.

That is, post 9/11 they did a lot of running around and folks are thinking that is working. When you have land and sea borders that the USA have - it's utterly impossible to police them so, once there is another major attack launched form within the country, the USA will be forced to reconsider their approach.

[MountainBear]

the USA will be forced to reconsider their approach.

Reconsider, perhaps, but change...unlikely. Part of the difficulty is that the entire bedrock of the philosophy is embedded in the judicial branch. It's not just a political decision of Congress or the Executive branch. According to the Supreme Court the distinction between rules that apply to insiders and rules that apply to outsiders is a tenet of our constitution itself.

This puts someone like the President in a tough spot. If he tries to increase security internally he runs the risk of getting it struck down as unconstitutional. On the other hand, if he lowers external security he gets hit with being "soft". The comparison between the Bush presidency and the Obama presidency is a great example that no matter what one does on this topic, the President get screwed.

Not the the head of BA cares. His comments are just a cheap way to score some points among the ignorant.

[retflyboy]

Internal Security

Had its infant beginning many many years ago when the son of a pax put a bomb in his mother's luggage so he could collect the flight insurance. I think it was back in the late 50's and seems like it was a flight from ORD to DEN. I could be very wrong on date and flight route. This is only from memory w/o any further research.

[eliptic]

"convincing the voters that the officials they elected are doing something"

Isn't that what all USA is all about?

[A and C]

good move

As said above the BA chairman it making a lot of sense however the vested interests of the security industry will unite to protect thm selfs.

After all it is the industry that can take unskilled numptys pay them very little and then charge a fortune for the service.................. it's no longer about security it is about the money.

[compton3bravo]

Sorry MountainBear have to disagree with you. When I first came to the US in the mid-1980s I could not believe how lax security was at the airports I visited. Talk about the land of the free.
I know security has improved drastically since then but I know for a fact that you have put off a lot of my fellow countrymen or should that be persons (UK) from returning to the US including me with your abusive and rather petulent border staff. This is a great pity because the US is a beautiful country and on the whole the people are very friendly unlike us Brits.
Oh and who trained the 9/11 - or as we rather like to call it 11 September 2001 - pilots. I rest my case.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

The border security can't be that good if they let that Timothy McVeigh fella in.......

[sitigeltfel]

Originally Posted by Tokyo Geoff

The 7/7 bombers in England were English.

A persons nationality is defined by their mindset, not the passport they carry.

[Jabiman]

From the original news item:

The UK's overall threat level, set by the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, remains at severe, which means that an attack is highly likely.

Seems to me that this is set by some group which is not answerable to anyone and trying to justify its existence.

[draglift]

While we are talking about U.S border security.

I have been flying regularly to the USA as flight crew for twenty years or so. Pre 911 we used to get through immigration pretty quickly. Nowadays we are sometimes the last people to leave the hall.

Each time I go in now I have to have my right thumb fingerprint checked, then my right 4 fingers. Then they do the same thing on my left hand (in case I might have sneakily swapped my left hand for somebody else's?)Woe betide me if even a single fingerprint fails to register on their reader by the second attempt. This means 15 minutes in a side room.

Having positively identified me by my fingerprints they still have to visually check my passport and visa (even though they have all the details on their computer) and take a photo of me (which looks very much like the one they took of me two weeks before).

For crew passing in and out regularly an iris scan would be all that should be necessary. What happens to U.S pilots returning home? Is it a much simpler process?

I'm not knocking America. I love the place but it could be so much simpler.

[parabellum]

Jabiman

Seems to me that this is set by some group which is not answerable to anyone and trying to justify its existence.

and you can feel smug and justified with your stance until the next bomb goes off.