I Don't believe it! Common sense1!
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The point being that the next Bomb will go off whether those cut-purse saftety weenies collect their money or not.
I wonder if there are reliable statistics on people being cought BEFORE they can try to do harm. Grabbing the fools who set fire to their shoes AFTER landing is in no way a victory for our glorious safety people.
regards,
I wonder if there are reliable statistics on people being cought BEFORE they can try to do harm. Grabbing the fools who set fire to their shoes AFTER landing is in no way a victory for our glorious safety people.
regards,
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure.
Helen Keller
US blind & deaf educator (1880 - 1968)
Helen Keller
US blind & deaf educator (1880 - 1968)
"There is no security." ~Wulfgar
(Line from the movie "Nighthawks" with Stallone and Rutger Hauer, about terrorist attacks)
(Line from the movie "Nighthawks" with Stallone and Rutger Hauer, about terrorist attacks)
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Traveling from Boston Logan to London on 3rd september 2001 with my family (including ex military husband) we were discussing how lax the security was at the airport. We were allowed to leave the departure lounge to go outside for a smoke, and when queueing for screening on return were waved past straight back into lounge without any checks.
So sadly we were not surprised to see that said airport was used by the terrorists a few days later.
I would rather spend longer at the airport because of tight security than make it easier for terrorists to commit another 9/11.
So sadly we were not surprised to see that said airport was used by the terrorists a few days later.
I would rather spend longer at the airport because of tight security than make it easier for terrorists to commit another 9/11.
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MountainBear:
Excellent bit of sarcastic dry humor.
America has always operated under a secure border theory. It is precisely because we have more stringent checks at the border that allows us to have less stringent checks internally. You catch the riff-raff before they get in, not afterward.
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PAXboy:
We know it works well. 15 million illegal aliens are the proof.
The American theory of 'a secure border' is only a couple of decades out of date but they will continue with it until there has been at least one more significant exposure of it.
I travel extensively both internally within the US and internationally (last trip was to the UK in Sept, managed to grab several decent pints - what a relief), but...
I fail to see what difference there is in security procedures between flying domestically and internationallyboth to/from the US? My home airport is IAD (Dulles/Washington International) and I have to go through exactly the same security process whether I am headed for Orlando or London...? There is only one security checkpoint for all flights and that is the same for all other airports I have used in living memory - same process, same laptop out, shoes off, etc.
I do agree the customs/border security process is tedious - why they need to fingerprint both hands and take my picture every time I arrive is surely unnecessary (I am a Green Card holder) - I suppose that is what this fuss is about? But that is not much different than having to stand in a MASSIVE queue at London-Heathrow just to wave my (UK) passport at the customs officer when I did finally reach the yellow line. All in all I usually clear customs faster in the US, than in Europe, despite the extra process on the US end.
- GY
I fail to see what difference there is in security procedures between flying domestically and internationallyboth to/from the US? My home airport is IAD (Dulles/Washington International) and I have to go through exactly the same security process whether I am headed for Orlando or London...? There is only one security checkpoint for all flights and that is the same for all other airports I have used in living memory - same process, same laptop out, shoes off, etc.
I do agree the customs/border security process is tedious - why they need to fingerprint both hands and take my picture every time I arrive is surely unnecessary (I am a Green Card holder) - I suppose that is what this fuss is about? But that is not much different than having to stand in a MASSIVE queue at London-Heathrow just to wave my (UK) passport at the customs officer when I did finally reach the yellow line. All in all I usually clear customs faster in the US, than in Europe, despite the extra process on the US end.
- GY
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I wonder if there are reliable statistics on people being cought BEFORE they can try to do harm.
(Note: They're not necessarily intercepted in the UK)
Join Date: Mar 2000
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All in all I usually clear customs faster in the US,
Houston, for example, as a special line for US citizens with hand baggage only, immigration and customs together.
The usual time to clear?
1 minute 15 seconds.
The last time through Houston it took exactly 52 seconds.
For the whingers who don't like the way US immigration/customs/TSA requirements are met...stay home, we don't want you here....we have enough malcontents already.
For the others, who see the very many opportiunities the USA has to offer...you are most welcome, certainly.
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I probably will...411A
For the others, who see the very many opportiunities the USA has to offer...you are most welcome, certainly.
BTW has anybody read the ridiculous "no fly list" the clowns from homeland security issue? With thousands of "Ali al whatsoever alias Abdullah al whatsoever" and most important the clue that this dangerous individual has a "dark complexion"?
I have to say I think US immigration personnel have improved in the last few years. I think the least friendly one I ever met was at Philadelphia about 20 years ago and immediately after 9/11 there was some tension and speed suffered but most recently I haven't had a problem. Oh, the fingerprint/photo lark is a nuisance (but they aren't the only country that do it) but if I choose to visit the USA I have to play by their rules. As for the TSA they are lagging behind their immigration cousins but they are better than they were. That's not to say they are brilliant, just better but they did start from a pretty poor point.
What does surprise me sometimes is how "security" does appear to be subject to a risk assessment. I crossed the Canada/Alaska border twice this year on the ground and there wasn't a fence in sight, just a mown strip. And flying in the far North of both Canada and Alaska I had two flights, one on a Caravan and one on a 748 where I didn't go through security AT ALL. Interestingly the Caravan was a scheduled flight and the 748 a charter.
What does surprise me sometimes is how "security" does appear to be subject to a risk assessment. I crossed the Canada/Alaska border twice this year on the ground and there wasn't a fence in sight, just a mown strip. And flying in the far North of both Canada and Alaska I had two flights, one on a Caravan and one on a 748 where I didn't go through security AT ALL. Interestingly the Caravan was a scheduled flight and the 748 a charter.
There are still some amazing inconsistencies with security in the US. Back in July I checked in a bag with Southwest for a flight I was trying to standby on. I didn’t get on the flight but my bag did!
Hmmm…..!
Hmmm…..!
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Back in July I checked in a bag with Southwest for a flight I was trying to standby on. I didn’t get on the flight but my bag did!
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I'm by no means an expert on airport security - just a regular passenger. But I am certainly happy to go through any amount of `inconvenience' at security if it gives me a better chance of getting from A to B in one piece. I know that a lot of security procedures probably have little evidence to back them up. I also realise that to a certain extent we will probably never prevent the most determined terrorist. However, all these security procedures are detterents and probably have some effect in reducing the liklihood of a terrorist boarding an aircraft. Of course security is not just about keeping out terrorists - they are also trying to prevent smuggling of drugs/weapons/tobacco etc.
I may be missing something, and forgive my ignorance if I am, but one thing I don't understand is what appear to me to be quite significant gaps in security at many airports (haven't flown to US for a while, so not sure there). One example - I flew from an airport a couple of years ago (can't remember where) where all hand luggage and passengers were scanned again on entering the boarding lounge immediately before boarding the plane. I am amazed that, especially in large airports, passengers can go through security and spend several hours amongst hundreds of people before boarding a plane, or perhaps never boarding a plane, without any further checks. I don't think it too far fetched to imagine a situation where someone manages to get into the airside area bypassing security undetected to meet with passengers who have passed through security, or someone is helped by a sympathetic member of staff and manages to acquire a weapon/bomb during this time.
I may be missing something, and forgive my ignorance if I am, but one thing I don't understand is what appear to me to be quite significant gaps in security at many airports (haven't flown to US for a while, so not sure there). One example - I flew from an airport a couple of years ago (can't remember where) where all hand luggage and passengers were scanned again on entering the boarding lounge immediately before boarding the plane. I am amazed that, especially in large airports, passengers can go through security and spend several hours amongst hundreds of people before boarding a plane, or perhaps never boarding a plane, without any further checks. I don't think it too far fetched to imagine a situation where someone manages to get into the airside area bypassing security undetected to meet with passengers who have passed through security, or someone is helped by a sympathetic member of staff and manages to acquire a weapon/bomb during this time.
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Mark my words.........Madrid will have a big event security-wise eventually , Crew can be queuing for security with pax , but blousey ladies bearing large handbags can breeze though the 'Staff Channel' , set off the alarms , but be waved through by the Garda . When i questioned this , I was assured that 'it is ok , she works here ' , when I retorted that 'what would happen if she had family being held at home at gunpoint ' I was subjected to a long process which carried on at my airline , quite a Big Airline in UK if you get my drift , which just goes to prove Do Not Rock The Boat . Its all a facade .
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What everybody seems to have forgotten is that the events that started this circus involved no banned items, no circumvention of security, nothing. Since then all incidents have involved banned items or substances being smuggled through security. One incident involved an airport which uses full body scanner. Naturally the reaction was to demand full body scanners everywhere. Go figure. Then you have people expressing surprise when sensible areas of the world tries to manage the risk rather than attempt or pretend to provide zero risk. Without having any comprehension of the actual risks or probabilities involved they accept whatever inconvenience they are presented with. Someone used the term sheeple.
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I'm with most of you on the airport security, and the self important screeners, being a joke. It's incredible, actually. I spent a few years as a very frequent SLF, as a Canadian, travelling primarily in the US, and a bit internationally. And...it's amazing how ineffective and inconvenient everything that surrounds airport security is.
If one really wanted to get something nasty past, once released into large concourses/terminals, it really wouldn't be very hard... The whole thing is a self serving monster - but don't tell the screeners that! Keep a straight face, shoes on the belt, laptop out, baggies with liquids/gels out, metal out of pockets, walk through, no beep, ok, let's go. Was hard not to laugh when I kept setting off the metal detector at Brainerd, MN (tiny little airport in N Minnesota - with a full TSA checkpoint, the whole nine yards)... Very serious security folks ended up doing the secondary screening thing.
Contrast with small airports in N Canada - I worked recently as a dispatcher at a small air service which operated primarily B1900c, KA100, B99c. Check in, and send the pax out to the airplane when ready to go. No ridiculous security. Mind you, most of the pilots (myself included, though I wasn't flying there) had Leathermans on our belts because, well, of course you have a Leatherman! I'm quite certain that most of the passengers would have had knives/Leathermans as well. No fence around that airport either because, well, there's really no need. Also, 2/3 of our pax pickups were at small, 3000' gravel strip airports and the like - crews often doing quick turns with 1 engine running.
Airport security as it is today is insanity, and for the most part serves very little real benefit. Always amuses me when they do the explosives swab of a freshly printed boarding pass, handed to you minutes earlier by a ticket agent... Usually they don't, but at some checkpoints, they seem to decide to swab different things depending on the day.... Sometimes laptop, sometimes passport, other days - your freshly printed boarding pass.
On a side note, for Canadian and US citizens travelling by air between the two countries on scheduled carriers, nothing beats NEXUS. It's a pre-approved trusted traveller program - I've been a member for a few years, and it's fantastic. Takes a few months of background checks, fingerprinting, interview with both US and Canadian customrs, etc, to get approved - but once approved, you don't have to talk to either US or Canadian customs. Go to the NEXUS machine, it takes an iris scan, you make a few on-screen selections, it spits out a ticket, and you give that ticket to a customs agent as you walk past. Done.
Cheers,
Colin
If one really wanted to get something nasty past, once released into large concourses/terminals, it really wouldn't be very hard... The whole thing is a self serving monster - but don't tell the screeners that! Keep a straight face, shoes on the belt, laptop out, baggies with liquids/gels out, metal out of pockets, walk through, no beep, ok, let's go. Was hard not to laugh when I kept setting off the metal detector at Brainerd, MN (tiny little airport in N Minnesota - with a full TSA checkpoint, the whole nine yards)... Very serious security folks ended up doing the secondary screening thing.
Contrast with small airports in N Canada - I worked recently as a dispatcher at a small air service which operated primarily B1900c, KA100, B99c. Check in, and send the pax out to the airplane when ready to go. No ridiculous security. Mind you, most of the pilots (myself included, though I wasn't flying there) had Leathermans on our belts because, well, of course you have a Leatherman! I'm quite certain that most of the passengers would have had knives/Leathermans as well. No fence around that airport either because, well, there's really no need. Also, 2/3 of our pax pickups were at small, 3000' gravel strip airports and the like - crews often doing quick turns with 1 engine running.
Airport security as it is today is insanity, and for the most part serves very little real benefit. Always amuses me when they do the explosives swab of a freshly printed boarding pass, handed to you minutes earlier by a ticket agent... Usually they don't, but at some checkpoints, they seem to decide to swab different things depending on the day.... Sometimes laptop, sometimes passport, other days - your freshly printed boarding pass.
On a side note, for Canadian and US citizens travelling by air between the two countries on scheduled carriers, nothing beats NEXUS. It's a pre-approved trusted traveller program - I've been a member for a few years, and it's fantastic. Takes a few months of background checks, fingerprinting, interview with both US and Canadian customrs, etc, to get approved - but once approved, you don't have to talk to either US or Canadian customs. Go to the NEXUS machine, it takes an iris scan, you make a few on-screen selections, it spits out a ticket, and you give that ticket to a customs agent as you walk past. Done.
Cheers,
Colin
Last edited by sgs233a; 27th Oct 2010 at 16:47. Reason: .
Trash du Blanc
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We've got a snake in Alabama called the puff adder, or spreading adder.
When you approach it, it rears its head and spreads its head and neck like a cobra. It looks alot like a copperhead, but it is absolutely harmless.
The old folks say, a puff adder won't hurt you, but it'll make you hurt yourself.
I can't help but think of that old saying when I think of the state of the U.S. today. Not that al Queda is harmless, but how badly did we end up hurting ourselves?
When you approach it, it rears its head and spreads its head and neck like a cobra. It looks alot like a copperhead, but it is absolutely harmless.
The old folks say, a puff adder won't hurt you, but it'll make you hurt yourself.
I can't help but think of that old saying when I think of the state of the U.S. today. Not that al Queda is harmless, but how badly did we end up hurting ourselves?