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BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III

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BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions III

Old 1st Nov 2010, 11:32
  #421 (permalink)  
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animal rights

Tiramisu, I have no idea who/what was the original target but somebody also needs to stick up for the gerbils
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Old 1st Nov 2010, 13:50
  #422 (permalink)  
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As a pax, on a Monday afternoon, this cheered me no end:
The Union's legal team has already advised that it would be difficult to establish that every members' staff travel entitlements amounted to a contractual right.
Amusing to see that admission in plain print. If they cannot establish contractual right this for "every member" then who works out which members can have it?
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Old 1st Nov 2010, 15:03
  #423 (permalink)  
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Maybe they think that those members who have never signed the ST agreement coould have it. As I have previously posted I think the lawyers know very well the language has been included for some time. It is BASSA that are using the excuse of not knowing to avoid tellling the members that if they signed the agreement in the past they are probably toast when it comes to potential compensation. Keeping the hope of potential compensation alive will contribute to some members rejecting the contract.
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Old 1st Nov 2010, 15:26
  #424 (permalink)  
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So much for getting ST back "in 5 minutes................."

On a more serious note, this whole affair has now become one big yawn.

How long can Unite keep DH and the Heritage shower quiet? It's so boring when he's got a Unite muzzle on.
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Old 1st Nov 2010, 16:36
  #425 (permalink)  
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There is an ongoing election for a new General Secretary of Unite.
It is said that a new broom sweeps clean.
I have heard of a BASS broom._ Is there such a thing as a BASSA broom?
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Old 1st Nov 2010, 17:46
  #426 (permalink)  
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One bristles at the very thought. Just when we hoped we had a handle on things, there's the prospect of a new head? I'll just sweep that under the carpet and hope for the best.

[Sorry, Mods]
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Old 1st Nov 2010, 17:46
  #427 (permalink)  
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St - T & C's

The wording of the Terms & Conditions requiring signature to obtain a 'Staff Travel' ticket are very explicit.

a) They very clearly separate the transaction to purchase a ticket at lower than list price from any other contracts or terms and conditions.

b) They very clearly establish that the transaction is solely between BA and the other party for the purchase of a ticket at that time and they are the only parties to the transaction.

c) The transaction does not include any other transaction - past or future.

d) The transaction is clearly labelled as a Contract, solely between the parties and solely concerning the purchase at that time of the ticket, it excludes any other terms and conditions.

e) It is very clearly an agreement which is a Contract to purchase between the parties for a price advantage and as such is made under contract law.

f) It has no connection to or relevance to terms and conditions of employment.

g) As each transaction arises and completes with the issue of a ticket, the structure continually renews as another separate accepted form of contract each time one is signed - and apparently has been doing so since the 1960's
without any form of challenge by the unions.

If BASSA or whoever have received any form of advice suggesting that the ST contract could be construed as part of the employee terms and conditions of employment, then I suggest that they try engaging lawyers who have at least some understanding of contract law, rather than totally wasting their members money.
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Old 1st Nov 2010, 18:40
  #428 (permalink)  
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"But, but (Boo Hoo) we've always had Staff Travel (Boo Hoo.)"
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Old 1st Nov 2010, 18:51
  #429 (permalink)  
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With regards to the ST removal issue, I found this on the web - an analysis/article written by Stephen Ravenscroft, a partner in the employment and benefits group at White & Case, LLP. It makes interesting reading...

Withdrawing Non-contractual Benefits from Striking Workers
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Old 1st Nov 2010, 20:26
  #430 (permalink)  
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My sympathy cup overflows ... yea, verily.

For it was written, "This is a non-contractual benefit, and if ye seriously pi$$ off he who gives that benefit, ye shall be cast into the outer darkness, and have to pay your own way from Barcelona, San Francisco or Glasgow."

Thus it was that light shone upon some of them, and they realised that being unemployed was worse than wittering about "Rights" and "Clauses". And many were brought back to the path of sensibleness.

... probably.
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Old 2nd Nov 2010, 00:03
  #431 (permalink)  
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You are in fine form..lol.

Seriously, even those of us who came late to this dispute understand the language regarding Staff Travel that Cabin Crew were dealing with.

And now it represents a reason to delay a ballot??? I don't think so.

There is no BASSA member that can defend this piece of inane activity because there is no defense.

Unless your legal team is Larry, Curly and Moe.
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Old 2nd Nov 2010, 06:24
  #432 (permalink)  
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Court Hearings - Court of Appeal Civil Division

Right at the end. On Wednsday. (Judgement of imposition Appeal).

Last edited by Fly380; 2nd Nov 2010 at 09:16.
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Old 2nd Nov 2010, 09:32
  #433 (permalink)  
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I suspect Wednesday's Appeal Court judgement is the real reason for the delay to the ballot.

Excellent link regarding ST NF, at last we have the views of a "real" lawyer concerning the issue. I suspect it would make sobering reading for striking CC's (assuming it was properly understood). Another question they could ask themselves is why Unite have not yet pursued the return of ST through the Courts and are apparently "recommending" acceptance of an offer that would remove any chance of such action in the future.
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Old 2nd Nov 2010, 22:42
  #434 (permalink)  
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The link above to the legal expert was very interesting, his view that TULRCA 1992 does not protect strikers from any detriment arising directly from actual industrial action, other than from actual dismissal in the protected period, would, if correct, scupper any claim by UNITE that BA were wrong to withdraw staff travel. (Sadly IMO, but I know I'm in a minority on that point here, I just don't like the idea of punishment for a legal strike)

Also, the past case quoted in the European Court, where the court agreed article 14 (prohibition of discrimination) was breached, but decided it was 'justifed and not disproportionate' would seem to make a European Human Rights ruling in UNITE's favour unlikely as well. The fact that BA have offered to give back Staff Travel in full by 2013 will make the original withdrawal seem 'not disproportionate' I should think, especially as an earlier -rejected - offer included seniority on commuter routes immediately (don't know if the latest offer does).

If UNITE's lawyers have reached the same conclusion (which would explain why they are prepared to 'recommend' an offer than precludes them from taking further court action) hopefully a sensibly worded ballot will be issued after the 'imposition' ruling tomorrow. No point trying to second guess that one, we'll hear soon enough.
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Old 2nd Nov 2010, 22:53
  #435 (permalink)  
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One thing I have I have misunderstood but subsequently realised through the discussions over time on 'ere, is that you will never be protected; at best you could possibly be compensated after the event.
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Old 2nd Nov 2010, 22:58
  #436 (permalink)  
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you will never be protected; at best you could possibly be compensated after the event.
Yup, any employer can more or less do anything they like, they just have to decide if itís commercially beneficial to them, given possible legal outcomes, and then off they go, alas.

In this case however I personally think that BA has shown remarkable restraint to be frank.
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Old 2nd Nov 2010, 23:00
  #437 (permalink)  
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Sadly that is the case, which is where as has been agreed (I think) a sensible union with corresponding lay officials, members & full time officials is a necessity.
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Old 3rd Nov 2010, 10:12
  #438 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Malone & ors vs BA Plc - Appellants Lost Appeal

Just heard on BBC News 24

BASSA are so unable to know when they are beaten I can see them pushing Unite to appeal these two decisions to the Supreme Court. Whether or not they would get leave to appeal further from the Courts is another matter. Even the Courts have a method to stop time (and money) wasters.
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Old 3rd Nov 2010, 10:57
  #439 (permalink)  
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AV Flyer

Thank you for the news.

A link to the Independent for those interested:
BA cabin crew lose appeal over cuts - Home News, UK - The Independent

It must be interesting for Gatwick crew members, who have worked to this scheme quite capably with BASSA's agreement, to hear BASSA now state what a hardship it is for Heathrow crew.

What other pending court cases does BASSA/Unite have at the moment..if any?
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Old 3rd Nov 2010, 11:09
  #440 (permalink)  
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We presumably have the much anticipated "5 minute" return of ST hearing to come, should Unite's legal team get round to actually commencing the action. Which should in itself tell a story.

I dont think today's judgement will have much impact in truth - crewing levels were never going to revert to former levels, and now LHR CC know they have no chance of compensation over having to work as hard as their colleagues in Gatwick. This will hardly improve their disposition towards BA, and they may see no other way of "revenge against the evil BA Management" other than by rejecting their offer and pushing for further strikes.

Cutting off their nose to spite their face maybe, but both judgement and a sense of reality seem sadly lacking from those BASSA members involved in this dispute
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