Commuting CC
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Commuting CC
Can someone please explain what rules the CAA have regarding long-distance cc commuters.
I see from the BA CC thread that one lady commutes to LHR from J'burg, and I am sure there are other examples, probably with a severe time change.
How long does a cc have to 'rest' after, for example a 12 hour commute, where does the 'rest' have to take place [a hotel room ?] and who monitors that the necessary rest period has taken place?
Can I just add that this question has nothing to do with the BA strike per-se. I just want to be sure that when I travel on a flight that the cc has not jumped off a 12 hour flight her/him self.
I see from the BA CC thread that one lady commutes to LHR from J'burg, and I am sure there are other examples, probably with a severe time change.
How long does a cc have to 'rest' after, for example a 12 hour commute, where does the 'rest' have to take place [a hotel room ?] and who monitors that the necessary rest period has taken place?
Can I just add that this question has nothing to do with the BA strike per-se. I just want to be sure that when I travel on a flight that the cc has not jumped off a 12 hour flight her/him self.
the lunatic fringe
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In essence the situation is that the ...
So it is beholden on the crew member to be sufficiently rested before operating.
Air Navigation Order requires that a crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require him to
fly, if either has reason to believe he is suffering, or is likely to
suffer while flying, from such fatigue as may endanger the safety
of the aircraft or its occupants
fly, if either has reason to believe he is suffering, or is likely to
suffer while flying, from such fatigue as may endanger the safety
of the aircraft or its occupants
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Apologize in advance at sounding ignorant, but how does living in Jo Burg and commuting to LHR make sense???? I can understand say Manchester to London etc.
If there is someone other there willing to describe a typical work week of such commuter I would much appreciate it
If there is someone other there willing to describe a typical work week of such commuter I would much appreciate it
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Just to continue on from the above, this area is deliberately non prescriptive because it is impossible to police, and everyone's rest requirements are different.
For example if I drive down to LHR from Manchester, get stuck in traffic caused by an accident, arrive in the briefing room with 30 seconds to spare having driven a car for the last five hours... am I more or less rested than the person who has flown in from JNB? They having had 6 hours sleep on the plane, a snooze on the couch in the afternoon, and reports in good time to go to HKG?
The above is just one of an infinite set variables that effect all crew who have to travel to work. Be it a short drive in rush-hour, to a long flight in before operating.
The essence is that no matter where you live, or how you get to work, you have to be sufficiently rested before operating, and that is "your" responsibility to achieve that.
The above is for the UK. The Americans take commuting to a whole different level, and I do not know the FAA rules. Google "crashpads" to learn more.
For example if I drive down to LHR from Manchester, get stuck in traffic caused by an accident, arrive in the briefing room with 30 seconds to spare having driven a car for the last five hours... am I more or less rested than the person who has flown in from JNB? They having had 6 hours sleep on the plane, a snooze on the couch in the afternoon, and reports in good time to go to HKG?
The above is just one of an infinite set variables that effect all crew who have to travel to work. Be it a short drive in rush-hour, to a long flight in before operating.
The essence is that no matter where you live, or how you get to work, you have to be sufficiently rested before operating, and that is "your" responsibility to achieve that.
The above is for the UK. The Americans take commuting to a whole different level, and I do not know the FAA rules. Google "crashpads" to learn more.
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Typically you'll find people that commute on such long distances will work part time (typically 50%) and then when they are working, they will use their days off between working weeks in the UK then return "home" to the permanent residence abroad for their time off 
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Presumably the commuting crew using Staff Travel do so sub-load? What happens if the flight's full?
Do they pull a sickie?
Or get upgraded by complaisant friends on the desk/in the cabin?
Surely to God they cannot be on firm tickets?
Mind you, BASSA has managed to empty BA flights with its antics, but that's no help if acommuting CC member is on strike in Jo'burg and therefore doesn't need the seat. Then again, perhaps he/she doesn't go on strike when in Jo'burg, only in UK......now I'm getting confused.....
Do they pull a sickie?
Or get upgraded by complaisant friends on the desk/in the cabin?
Surely to God they cannot be on firm tickets?
Mind you, BASSA has managed to empty BA flights with its antics, but that's no help if acommuting CC member is on strike in Jo'burg and therefore doesn't need the seat. Then again, perhaps he/she doesn't go on strike when in Jo'burg, only in UK......now I'm getting confused.....
Thread Starter
I think there must also be a management issue here.
Say cc leaves home for a 10 hour flight on st to LHR, for a lh flight to the Far East, with only a 5 hour time gap between arriving at LHR and departing as a 'functioning' cc.
Surely that cannot be correct - I know that it is possible to 'nap' in economy, and possibly 'doze' in club, but since cc are important [nay vital according to BASSA] members of the flight team, surely management must be aware of the flight arrangements of individual crew members, and ban them from crewing flights if they have had insufficent 'rest' time.
L337 makes a good point, but when the airline knows of an individual's commuting travel arrangements, surely the airline must ensure that the cc in question arrives in sufficient time for sufficient rest prior to commencement of duty.
Say cc leaves home for a 10 hour flight on st to LHR, for a lh flight to the Far East, with only a 5 hour time gap between arriving at LHR and departing as a 'functioning' cc.
Surely that cannot be correct - I know that it is possible to 'nap' in economy, and possibly 'doze' in club, but since cc are important [nay vital according to BASSA] members of the flight team, surely management must be aware of the flight arrangements of individual crew members, and ban them from crewing flights if they have had insufficent 'rest' time.
L337 makes a good point, but when the airline knows of an individual's commuting travel arrangements, surely the airline must ensure that the cc in question arrives in sufficient time for sufficient rest prior to commencement of duty.
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Lots of assumptions and not enough facts here.
I don't work for BA, but in my company, like in many, lots of people commute. I am myself a commuter, even if the place I live is just one hour and a half away from where I work. I've done the round trip for paperwork yesterday leaving around 10AM, back home by 4.30 PM.The majority commute from places not very far away (same country or bordering countries), some from far away: I've met people living in the US, Canada, Thailand, Africa etc. It needs lots of planning but it is entirely feasible. Usually people get to their base the day before their "on duty" flight, or anyway several hours before in order to get some rest and to allow plenty of time in case you get stuck somewhere. Some then get a hotel room (all hotels around airports have airline staff fares, starting around 30€), or a B&B, or have a crash pad, or a friend where they can bunk.
There are many ways to make sure you get where you have to go. You can buy a "seat available" staff ticket if the loading factors are good (you can check the loads on the company site), or spend a little more for a staff ticket with a booked seat if the flight looks full.
In the end, people commuting are not more tired than the ones living near the airport. You can live 2 miles from the airport and show up for your flight having partied the whole night. No one can make you get the required rest if you don't want to. In the end, it is up to you to know your limits and respect them, which is what CC and pilots usually do.
I don't work for BA, but in my company, like in many, lots of people commute. I am myself a commuter, even if the place I live is just one hour and a half away from where I work. I've done the round trip for paperwork yesterday leaving around 10AM, back home by 4.30 PM.The majority commute from places not very far away (same country or bordering countries), some from far away: I've met people living in the US, Canada, Thailand, Africa etc. It needs lots of planning but it is entirely feasible. Usually people get to their base the day before their "on duty" flight, or anyway several hours before in order to get some rest and to allow plenty of time in case you get stuck somewhere. Some then get a hotel room (all hotels around airports have airline staff fares, starting around 30€), or a B&B, or have a crash pad, or a friend where they can bunk.
There are many ways to make sure you get where you have to go. You can buy a "seat available" staff ticket if the loading factors are good (you can check the loads on the company site), or spend a little more for a staff ticket with a booked seat if the flight looks full.
In the end, people commuting are not more tired than the ones living near the airport. You can live 2 miles from the airport and show up for your flight having partied the whole night. No one can make you get the required rest if you don't want to. In the end, it is up to you to know your limits and respect them, which is what CC and pilots usually do.
You are quite right. One of the recent-hire pilots on the Colgan Air accident last year, a commuter operation around New York, lived in Seattle, and to report for a day's duty was travelling right across the USA, being accomplished by leaving in the evening on the jump seat of a freighter, changing planes in Memphis in the middle of the night, and turning up on the East Coast for a day's work.
You have to wonder what the HR department of the operator were thinking of, taking someone in this situation on.
You have to wonder what the HR department of the operator were thinking of, taking someone in this situation on.
I routinely fly long haul (albeit business or first) and then get straight to work on arrival. Many business travellers do similar. I don't see any difference between this and commuting CC's.
However, I really do question the judgement of any CC who relied upon staff travel to get to work but recklessly threw it away by striking. I'd rather not have my safety in their hands thank you.
However, I really do question the judgement of any CC who relied upon staff travel to get to work but recklessly threw it away by striking. I'd rather not have my safety in their hands thank you.
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I think the topic has been done to death. managing fatigue is an individual issue.
For example mil SAR UK routinely work a 24hr shift pattern. As an example, arrive at work at 07.30, brief/do trivia till 10.00am; then do 2hrs training. 20.00hrs (or dark o'clock) do two hours training. Then at 3.30am next day get a job....
It may not be right (I dont think best practice or customer satisfaction has yet been tried in court) but it is what it is, and when push comes to shove the highest level of service is delivered.
Commutting CC on the basis of fatigue is a non issue in my opinion.
Now to give up cheap flights in favour of striking on the basis of BASSA information, well that has to be a huge issue!
For example mil SAR UK routinely work a 24hr shift pattern. As an example, arrive at work at 07.30, brief/do trivia till 10.00am; then do 2hrs training. 20.00hrs (or dark o'clock) do two hours training. Then at 3.30am next day get a job....
It may not be right (I dont think best practice or customer satisfaction has yet been tried in court) but it is what it is, and when push comes to shove the highest level of service is delivered.
Commutting CC on the basis of fatigue is a non issue in my opinion.
Now to give up cheap flights in favour of striking on the basis of BASSA information, well that has to be a huge issue!
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Back in my CC days with BA, I commuted for a number of years. From IAH-LGW and NRT-LHR. I was able to do this because I was on a 33% contract. I would fly to LON, do three weeks of flying. This was usually 3-4 trips depending on duration. I would then stay with friends, family and the odd B&B between trips. After the last trip, I would then fly home for 6 weeks.
A number of crew as well as management commute from faraway places such as SYD, CPT, LAX, BKK etc. As far as I know they are on part time contracts or are able to manipulate rosters to group their days off into large blocks.
All flights are standby ID90 and the chances of getting on depend on where you commute from. I always did my homework before just turning up at the terminal. I would also arrive the day before my first duty and never suffered from fatigue. The vast majority of flights, I would be assigned a seat in Y (usually a middle at the back) but it would either be changed at the gate or onboard by crew who recognised me (usually the Japanese ICCs) or were trying to sort out a seating issue.
Only once can I remember not getting on and couldn't get to work for about 3 days due to disruption. I ended up taking leave. I missed more flights living in Brighton and dealing with the M23/25 than I did from commuting.
A number of crew as well as management commute from faraway places such as SYD, CPT, LAX, BKK etc. As far as I know they are on part time contracts or are able to manipulate rosters to group their days off into large blocks.
All flights are standby ID90 and the chances of getting on depend on where you commute from. I always did my homework before just turning up at the terminal. I would also arrive the day before my first duty and never suffered from fatigue. The vast majority of flights, I would be assigned a seat in Y (usually a middle at the back) but it would either be changed at the gate or onboard by crew who recognised me (usually the Japanese ICCs) or were trying to sort out a seating issue.
Only once can I remember not getting on and couldn't get to work for about 3 days due to disruption. I ended up taking leave. I missed more flights living in Brighton and dealing with the M23/25 than I did from commuting.
