BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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Hotel Mode ... that's cool. Think how many thousands of posts over the last year or so, on 2 different threads here [never mind other Boards]. Some things get missed, or forgotten.
Let's talk about the issues, eh?
Let's talk about the issues, eh?
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Call 100 ............
"If only it were that simple......What a wonderful world it would be."
If the above dismissive and meaningless comment is the only response that you are able to make to a considered statement regarding Contract Law, then I suggest that you restrict yourself to only responding where you are qualified to do so.
"If only it were that simple......What a wonderful world it would be."
If the above dismissive and meaningless comment is the only response that you are able to make to a considered statement regarding Contract Law, then I suggest that you restrict yourself to only responding where you are qualified to do so.
I could have said your post was a load of tosh but resisted and posted a wish. Obviously you are no more qualified to comment on anything regarding the position of ST removal and Employment law. You made that clear in your post.
This is why we await the outcome of the court case and the legal arguments during it with interest.
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This is why we await the outcome of the court case and the legal arguments during it
Does the result really matter anymore.
BA now has its new Mixed Fleet. (lower cost)
As routes are transferred to MF and "heritage crew" leave the airline it would seem to be game,set and match. !!!
BA now has its new Mixed Fleet. (lower cost)
As routes are transferred to MF and "heritage crew" leave the airline it would seem to be game,set and match. !!!
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To me, this whole issue will be based on two statements -
"Right of Collective Bargaining and Action’, stipulates: Workers and employers, or their respective organisations, have, in accordance with Community law and national laws and practices, the right to negotiate and conclude collective agreements at the appropriate levels and, in cases of conflicts of interests, to take collective action to defend their interests, including strike action" Article 28 The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU.
"For the avoidance of doubt, nothing in the charter creates justifiable rights applicable to the UK except in so far as the UK has provided for such rights in its national law" Tony Blair 2007
This clears it all up?!
House of Lords - European Union - Tenth Report
From 5.29b onwards.
"Right of Collective Bargaining and Action’, stipulates: Workers and employers, or their respective organisations, have, in accordance with Community law and national laws and practices, the right to negotiate and conclude collective agreements at the appropriate levels and, in cases of conflicts of interests, to take collective action to defend their interests, including strike action" Article 28 The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU.
"For the avoidance of doubt, nothing in the charter creates justifiable rights applicable to the UK except in so far as the UK has provided for such rights in its national law" Tony Blair 2007
This clears it all up?!
House of Lords - European Union - Tenth Report
From 5.29b onwards.
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Litebulbs, thank you for the link.
What seems (to me) to be clear, wading my way through it, is that the picture is confusing. There seems to be a right to right to negotiate and conclude collective agreements at the appropriate levels. It is far less clear whether there is a right to strike, despite the concluding part of Article 28.
It states further that the right to strike is already recognised as a general principle of law. This "principle" seems to be where the fun starts as:
So, is there a right to strike in the UK? or is it a principle, which is not enshrined in law? The problem arises from this distinction. IF there is only a principle and no right, can BA be acting illegally by "punishing" strikers, as their rights have not been infringed. This I suspect will be where BA's case will reside. As it seems unclear and confusing to the scholars of EU and UK law, this is likely to run a long way before a clear resolution is reached and may even force parliament to make clear what the relationship is between UK law and EU law. Does an EU law that is directly contradictory to UK law mean that UK law must bend?
This is a fascinating conundrum and may have far reaching consequences. It also shows that there will be a lot of scope for appeal after appeal on this subject. I do not expect a swift resolution to this issue. Sadly for BASSA, a speedy resolution is what they need, the longer this goes on the longer a new "normality" is established.
What seems (to me) to be clear, wading my way through it, is that the picture is confusing. There seems to be a right to right to negotiate and conclude collective agreements at the appropriate levels. It is far less clear whether there is a right to strike, despite the concluding part of Article 28.
5.36. Article 28 of the Charter does not create a free-standing right to strike
Such principles, explained Lord Goldsmith, "only give rise to rights to the extent that they are implemented by national law or, in those areas where there is such competence, by Community law"
This is a fascinating conundrum and may have far reaching consequences. It also shows that there will be a lot of scope for appeal after appeal on this subject. I do not expect a swift resolution to this issue. Sadly for BASSA, a speedy resolution is what they need, the longer this goes on the longer a new "normality" is established.
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Juan
I seem to remember either on here, or in conversation, that neither business or unions have wanted to test where the UK sit with regard to the right to strike. As I see it, it is an implied term in the UK and in some instances it would be reasonable to strike and the law will se it that way. In other instances, it is not. The greyness of our current understanding of a right to strike, allows a case by case approach. However, if this right is explored more, one side will win and one side will loose and until now, no side really wanted to take the risk of getting a definite answer. But all of this, is just my opinion!
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Litebulbs
What you say rings a bell with me too, what I hadn't quite appreciated was the delicate nature of the legal position. The danger of the politicians becoming engaged in this and clarifying the position with an eye on their beliefs wrt the EU and EU law and interference. If not careful here the unions may end up with a law passed that clearly defines UK law's supremacy and the establishment that there is no right to strike in UK law. That would be a disaster for unions and the working man.
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From the "other" thread
Biteme asks, somewhat plaintively:
There would be only one possible course of action: resign.
Immediately.
BigBrutha,
Lets say for a minute you are in my shoes, been on strike, lost your staff travel and don’t agree with the route that BA are taking your department.
What would you do?
Lets say for a minute you are in my shoes, been on strike, lost your staff travel and don’t agree with the route that BA are taking your department.
What would you do?
Immediately.
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CCC
I am sure we can see through Biteme as just the latest incarnation of the duty BASSA troll, possibly DH himself, he says
If not DH then just another troll trying another lame story to try and influence opinion. Good for him for trying, bit so easy to see through.
All you have to do is look through the posting history - the poster has been resurrected from the portfolio of BASSA rep pseudonyms.
I am sure we can see through Biteme as just the latest incarnation of the duty BASSA troll, possibly DH himself, he says
I was lucky to have been off and attend every meeting that bassa held.
All you have to do is look through the posting history - the poster has been resurrected from the portfolio of BASSA rep pseudonyms.
Last edited by TopBunk; 27th Sep 2010 at 18:26.
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Actually biteme is not DH, or even one of the usual BASSA trolls. He's one of the more moderate posters on the crews own forums. Unfortunately he does share their common position of being unaware of much of their unions amateurish behaviour and a reluctance to accept evidence of what has gone before. If crew knew half of what their union had been up to (and also hadn't been up to) they'd be aghast.
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Work pressure
I am concerned about biteme (on the other web) and others like him._ Change is difficult._ He is 47 and therefore has given the best years of his life to a job which appears to be a very sociable job but could in reality be quite lonely._ Biteme is clearly a conscientious person and no doubt is very good at his job._ But what a curious job it is!_ In most jobs one has colleagues and they are the same colleagues for years._ Each person knows the strengths and weaknesses of the others._ And during the off-duty periods the group will chat together about sport or aging grandparents or hobbies and since the individuals know each other quite well they know what to joke about and what not to joke about._ These off-duty periods when e.g. they are having a break for lunch establishes relationships that enable them at work to deal with each other in a professional and confident manner._ But how does it work if one has 10,000 colleagues?_ Clearly it doesn’t work._ It would be a real strain.
Please can one or two BA cabin crew staff tell me (because I don’t know) are you with strangers as colleagues?_ Or do you arrange your bids for routes so as to meet up with familiar faces?
Please can one or two BA cabin crew staff tell me (because I don’t know) are you with strangers as colleagues?_ Or do you arrange your bids for routes so as to meet up with familiar faces?
Last edited by notlangley; 29th Sep 2010 at 08:22. Reason: narrowed down to BA CC only
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……removing ST from strikers and only from strikers…….
I see that Wee Willie has awarded himself a Million Pound Share Option !
Madrid is only a couple hours away - and with ST quite inexpensive......
(P.s. where's ExSp33db1rd when we need him ? )
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YorkshireTyke
Willie Walsh (as thats his name, Wee Willie is not his name) did not and cannot award himself anything. Any increase in salary, bonus, share options etc has to be proposed, and accepted by the whole board. He has no say in the matter. What he can do, and what he has done in the past is to decline what was offered.
?
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Notlangley
I am BA cc based at LHR worldwide fleet(longhaul)
We would never be rostered to do a trip with the entire crew again as it would not be possible.Some people may have part time,leave or UK request days next so it would not work.
I will check in for a long haul trip and not usually know anyone on the crew.
I can appreciate that this does sound strange to non flyers who have familiarity in their work place.
Crew,both in the cabin and the flight deck,get used to getting on board not even knowing everyone's names.We all know what tasks have to be done before passenger boarding.This is a very busy time so no real chit chat can take place.
Crew have to be able to work in a team of strangers and get the job done.
As far as I am aware most UK airlines work like this as it makes it easier for rostering.
I am BA cc based at LHR worldwide fleet(longhaul)
We would never be rostered to do a trip with the entire crew again as it would not be possible.Some people may have part time,leave or UK request days next so it would not work.
I will check in for a long haul trip and not usually know anyone on the crew.
I can appreciate that this does sound strange to non flyers who have familiarity in their work place.
Crew,both in the cabin and the flight deck,get used to getting on board not even knowing everyone's names.We all know what tasks have to be done before passenger boarding.This is a very busy time so no real chit chat can take place.
Crew have to be able to work in a team of strangers and get the job done.
As far as I am aware most UK airlines work like this as it makes it easier for rostering.
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And the world without the BASSA dinosaurs continues to function and move on.
BA today signed an agreement to start a transatlantic joint business with American Airlines and Iberia worth a combined £4.4 billion in annual revenues.
The deal, approved by the EU and the US, allows the three airlines to co-operate commercially on flights between the EU, Switzerland and Norway and the US, Mexico and Canada.
The benefits from the joint business will be shared between the airlines irrespective of which carrier takes the booking.
BA said the joint business will launch next month and provide customers with greater access to discounted fares, more convenient connections and better access to the airlines' global network.
BA's planned merger with Spanish airline Iberia is set to go ahead soon.
The deal, approved by the EU and the US, allows the three airlines to co-operate commercially on flights between the EU, Switzerland and Norway and the US, Mexico and Canada.
The benefits from the joint business will be shared between the airlines irrespective of which carrier takes the booking.
BA said the joint business will launch next month and provide customers with greater access to discounted fares, more convenient connections and better access to the airlines' global network.
BA's planned merger with Spanish airline Iberia is set to go ahead soon.
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617sqn
I am grateful to you for your reply which was exactly the opposite to what I had expected._ There is a particular advantage in this shuffling of personnel._ As I see it, the advantage is that it is a force that reduces polarisation between ex-Amicus and ex-T&GWU._ With my limited vision as a PAX I have formed the view that ex-Amicus has by metamorphosis become CC89 and ex-T&GWU has by metamorphosis become BASSA._ Therefore the shuffling of the rostering should be of value to most cabin crew because when the hue and cry has died down, it will enable old divisions to disappear into irrelevance.
However it is a bit tough on the loyal, the shy, the boastful, the loner, and those who do not doubt._ I do hope that BA has clubs like rowing clubs, sailing clubs, athletic clubs, skying clubs because these social organisations are very important to soften the cultural change that will take place to Unite BA CC members in 2011.
Twenty years ago I was in an organisation that downsized._ There was no bullying, no differences between Management and Trade Union._ It was very smooth and voluntary._ It was driven by the government who held our purse-strings._ Even so there were tragic results because one or two employees could not accept change.
Help for the individual is needed._ And it is difficult to identify those individuals._ I wish that I could have spotted them, but maybe I would have been of no use.
However it is a bit tough on the loyal, the shy, the boastful, the loner, and those who do not doubt._ I do hope that BA has clubs like rowing clubs, sailing clubs, athletic clubs, skying clubs because these social organisations are very important to soften the cultural change that will take place to Unite BA CC members in 2011.
Twenty years ago I was in an organisation that downsized._ There was no bullying, no differences between Management and Trade Union._ It was very smooth and voluntary._ It was driven by the government who held our purse-strings._ Even so there were tragic results because one or two employees could not accept change.
Help for the individual is needed._ And it is difficult to identify those individuals._ I wish that I could have spotted them, but maybe I would have been of no use.
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You've got that the wrong way round I think. First there was BASSA. Then when people became disaffected by BASSAs militancy a breakway union, CC89 was formed. CC89 and BASSA became affiliated to Amicus and TGWU respectively. Amicus and TGWU then merged to become Unite.
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Well whatever the politics are we are all strangers 8 miles high going away for up to 9 days.
As we walk through the airport chatting it would be hard to guess we only met 10 minutes ago.
Crew have a natural ability to make friends and get on with the job as a team of strangers.
As in all walks of life some are more skilled in this area than others.
It is very strange though to do a 9 day trip and have a good time,then land back at LHR,say goodbye, maybe never see them again and do the same next trip.
It is difficult when you have things going on at home.You may feel very sad and not want to go away andyou have no friends with you.
You have to paint the smile on,walk into the briefing room and get on with it.
I have left a close relative in intensive care and gone into work feeling very fragile.How I kept that smile going I will never know.
As part of the briefing the CSD will say to call them anytime if you are upset.On the whole,crew are good to each other.
Things are a bit more challenging at the moment,which is a shame.
I have never seen any crew take their grievance out on a pax.In fact I have seen some very militant crew being outstanding.The pax would never guess their stance.
Anyway,back to topic.Sometimes good,sometimes bad can be lonely.
I can't see us being rostered any other way so we just get on with it.
As we walk through the airport chatting it would be hard to guess we only met 10 minutes ago.
Crew have a natural ability to make friends and get on with the job as a team of strangers.
As in all walks of life some are more skilled in this area than others.
It is very strange though to do a 9 day trip and have a good time,then land back at LHR,say goodbye, maybe never see them again and do the same next trip.
It is difficult when you have things going on at home.You may feel very sad and not want to go away andyou have no friends with you.
You have to paint the smile on,walk into the briefing room and get on with it.
I have left a close relative in intensive care and gone into work feeling very fragile.How I kept that smile going I will never know.
As part of the briefing the CSD will say to call them anytime if you are upset.On the whole,crew are good to each other.
Things are a bit more challenging at the moment,which is a shame.
I have never seen any crew take their grievance out on a pax.In fact I have seen some very militant crew being outstanding.The pax would never guess their stance.
Anyway,back to topic.Sometimes good,sometimes bad can be lonely.
I can't see us being rostered any other way so we just get on with it.
