Airline schedules
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Airline schedules
Some of my travelling takes me well away from ‘normal’ routes, and I notice that sometimes I am on what is reputedly (according to the agent that usually books my travel) to be the only flight of the day, only to see other flights mentioned on the departure boards 
. To help me avoid long waits at some complete holes of airports, can anybody tell me if there is a site giving definitive (and accurate!) airline schedules?
. To help me avoid long waits at some complete holes of airports, can anybody tell me if there is a site giving definitive (and accurate!) airline schedules?
Paxing All Over The World
Most travel agents susbscribe to one of the major booking systems. These list flights in a certain order, which sometimes has to do with who owns and runs the system!
Also, an agent may get a higher fee for booking you on one carrier over another, so it is in their interest to tell you that there is only one flight a day.
BA cut their commission fees to agents, think ing that it would save them money. Some claim that the reduction in bookings from agents is due to them putting the business elsewhere, in order to get better commission.
If you want a complete listing of all flights, you have to pay for it. You can subscribe to a CD or on-line:
Official Airline Guide
Also, an agent may get a higher fee for booking you on one carrier over another, so it is in their interest to tell you that there is only one flight a day.
BA cut their commission fees to agents, think ing that it would save them money. Some claim that the reduction in bookings from agents is due to them putting the business elsewhere, in order to get better commission.
If you want a complete listing of all flights, you have to pay for it. You can subscribe to a CD or on-line:
Official Airline Guide
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I use Amadeus before calling the company travel agent. The site is free and often finds flights which the travel agent seems to have difficulty locating (until I let them have the flight numbers!).
Give it a try
By the way, flights are listed in time order (total time for trip). There is also an "advanced" search button, where you can limit the choice of airline and/or do a one-way search. I have never found Amadeus to be inaccurate. And it's FREE
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: sanjosebaz ]
Give it a try
By the way, flights are listed in time order (total time for trip). There is also an "advanced" search button, where you can limit the choice of airline and/or do a one-way search. I have never found Amadeus to be inaccurate. And it's FREE
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: sanjosebaz ]
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Thanks guys 
. At first play both seem effective (showing the flights I noticed during my long wait), and it looks like the Amadeus is particularly good 
.
PAXBoy, I did not know the stuff about the agents. However, it does not surprise me at all.
. At first play both seem effective (showing the flights I noticed during my long wait), and it looks like the Amadeus is particularly good .PAXBoy, I did not know the stuff about the agents. However, it does not surprise me at all.
Paxing All Over The World
Not at all, Evening Star, glad to help. Another trick that I learnt, when trying to find out who operates between two points, is to tackle it via the airports.
Most airports now have a web site and proudly display lists of all the destinations served! Sometimes you have to 'reverse engineer' the route, by going to look at the eventual destination (I started off writing ultimate destination but some clever twot would have said that the ultimate destination is the grave ) and then look 'back' to see where you could depart from or via (lousy English).
There are some sites that list all the airports and I have built up a fair collection. Smaller airfields in some countries are run by the local council and can be located through their site. In this country, Plymouth is one such example.
This site is for the USA:
USA airports
The URL that I had for European airports now seems dead.
Yahoo do a good listing of Airports by following their travel thread.
Most airports now have a web site and proudly display lists of all the destinations served! Sometimes you have to 'reverse engineer' the route, by going to look at the eventual destination (I started off writing ultimate destination but some clever twot would have said that the ultimate destination is the grave
) and then look 'back' to see where you could depart from or via (lousy English).There are some sites that list all the airports and I have built up a fair collection. Smaller airfields in some countries are run by the local council and can be located through their site. In this country, Plymouth is one such example.
This site is for the USA:
USA airports
The URL that I had for European airports now seems dead.
Yahoo do a good listing of Airports by following their travel thread.
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For free point-to-point timetables, try http://travel.airwise.com/schedules/schedules.html . You do have to give dates but approximations are OK as the resultant display shows frequency - ie. it's a 'real' timetable. There is also http://www.smarterliving.com/bin/flightsearch.cgi but it has less info.
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I tried airwise before, but found Amadeus much better. Just tried NCL to SJC, to see if airwise had improved... Nope! Try it - airwise finds nothing (seems it can't cope with multiple legs on different airlines), whereas Amadeus gives many choices. I didn't pluck NCL to SJC out of thin air either! It is a route I often fly.
... Correction - reading again, you did say point-to-point, which makes more sense. So airwise is great for non-stop stuff. But why do they insist on those annoying popup ads?
[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: sanjosebaz ]
... Correction - reading again, you did say point-to-point, which makes more sense. So airwise is great for non-stop stuff. But why do they insist on those annoying popup ads?
[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: sanjosebaz ]
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Evening Star
This practice is not just associated with the scheduled carriers. 99% of the high street travel agents are owned by one or other of the tour companies. IE. Thomas Cook owns JMC Airlines. So, if you go into an Airtours owned shop, (Going Places) you will not find brochures for First Choice or Cosmos for instance. You will be found a holiday that is operated by one of the travel agents subsidiaries. Such as Airtours the airline and Airtours the Inclusive Tour company. Don't think the travel agents are doing their best for you. They are in business to make money first and foremost and may not be showing you all the holidays available to your chosen destination. It is hard to find an independent travel agent these days that will look at different itineraries for you. I am lucky and have one near buy, but, at times as mentioned above, if I do not give them specific perimeters they also try and put me on flights that will afford them the best commission. It pays to look around at more than one shop in the high street.
This practice is not just associated with the scheduled carriers. 99% of the high street travel agents are owned by one or other of the tour companies. IE. Thomas Cook owns JMC Airlines. So, if you go into an Airtours owned shop, (Going Places) you will not find brochures for First Choice or Cosmos for instance. You will be found a holiday that is operated by one of the travel agents subsidiaries. Such as Airtours the airline and Airtours the Inclusive Tour company. Don't think the travel agents are doing their best for you. They are in business to make money first and foremost and may not be showing you all the holidays available to your chosen destination. It is hard to find an independent travel agent these days that will look at different itineraries for you. I am lucky and have one near buy, but, at times as mentioned above, if I do not give them specific perimeters they also try and put me on flights that will afford them the best commission. It pays to look around at more than one shop in the high street.
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Evening Star:
It appears that you have computer that is connected to the internet. Instead of booking through an agent, you could log on directly to any airline that operates into your neck of the woods to check fares and schedules. But more importantly, you will benefit from many special unpublished internet fares, available only online with the respective carrier(s). Airline List
[ 29 November 2001: Message edited by: GlueBall ]
It appears that you have computer that is connected to the internet. Instead of booking through an agent, you could log on directly to any airline that operates into your neck of the woods to check fares and schedules. But more importantly, you will benefit from many special unpublished internet fares, available only online with the respective carrier(s). Airline List
[ 29 November 2001: Message edited by: GlueBall ]
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To add to Paxboys comments, the displaying of
flights can also depend on whether the airline subscribes to the reservation system the agent is using.
Check the schedule for flights between Houston (HOU) and Dallas Love Field (DAL)
in both Amadeus and OAG
In one there is no mention of Southwest, one of the two operators in the route.
This also leads to the situation which
Evening Star was talking about.
flights can also depend on whether the airline subscribes to the reservation system the agent is using.
Check the schedule for flights between Houston (HOU) and Dallas Love Field (DAL)
in both Amadeus and OAG
In one there is no mention of Southwest, one of the two operators in the route.
This also leads to the situation which
Evening Star was talking about.
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I concur with the above expressed concerns. I had to fly from Lima to Cuzco Peru. The travel agent only had access to 2 airlines: Lan Peru and Taca. However on arrival at the airport, I discovered 5 airlines flew the routes and their fares were much cheaper than what I paid. Having never before been to South Amserica (I live in Australia) I would not have known it by then, even with my strong interest in aviation and timetables.
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I just checked amadeus - it's frankly hopeless.
Adelaide-Melbourne is served by 3 major airlines: Qantas, Virgin Blue and Ansett Mark II. Amadeus only lists QF and if Virgin or Ansett are specified it comes up with nothing. Probably because they do not subscribe to these booking networks.
OAG will list Virgin flights but still no AN flights. Hence, you have to be "in the know" to look up AN on the web and book them yourself online - hardly satisfactory!
Adelaide-Melbourne is served by 3 major airlines: Qantas, Virgin Blue and Ansett Mark II. Amadeus only lists QF and if Virgin or Ansett are specified it comes up with nothing. Probably because they do not subscribe to these booking networks.
OAG will list Virgin flights but still no AN flights. Hence, you have to be "in the know" to look up AN on the web and book them yourself online - hardly satisfactory!
Paxing All Over The World
The South American one is a problem certainly, as I doubt that few of those airports have a web site (as I mentioned above). Another possibility would be try contacting the tourist organisation for the destination. They may have a web site or be available via the embassy in your country.
Tourist organisations are supposed to be independent of even the state airline and just be interested in getting you to the country. Some, I suspect, are not entirely unbiased ...
Tourist organisations are supposed to be independent of even the state airline and just be interested in getting you to the country. Some, I suspect, are not entirely unbiased ...
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One very good independent travel agency I have found is the TV Travel Shop - a callcentre based agency that promotes itself through two channels on digital and cable television. TVTS has been successfully in business for about three years, has a huge market share in the travel agent business, and although HAS some special deals with particular operators (Cosmos, JMC etc) actuall deals with every tour operator possible! Most tour operators from UK also offer airfares which is one "cheaper" route for destinations that are popular with Brit tourists. For real airline fares, TVTS will also look at a company called Farebank/GoldMedal travel which is a flight consolidator, ie, buying seats from airlines and onselling em! Not everyone at TVTS seems to know about Farebank unfortunately, but if you want to book direct I think Gold Medal are based in Manchester. If you call them, you can then get the fare + named airline(s) and then check online if you can improve the price direct with the airline or through one of the online flight agencies.
HTH
HTH
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Rolling Stone
Should have made it clear in my original post that I was talking about business flights and using a (nominally ) independent travel agent. The package hols have never appealed!
It is not that I begrudge any agent their fee, as they are taking away the hassle of my having to find and book flights. What annoyed me was getting to my destination and noticing more convenient flights after being told there was only one flight a day. (mind some of the alternative operators I might think twice about using ....) I prefer to use the same agent as they get to know my foibles. However, I do wonder if I should look for a different agent.
GlueBall
I tried Airline List, and found it very much depends on the airline.
ADL man
Amadeus seemed to showed the 'missing' alternatives for my trips last month. Maybe it has some sort of regional bias?
Should have made it clear in my original post that I was talking about business flights and using a (nominally
) independent travel agent. The package hols have never appealed!It is not that I begrudge any agent their fee, as they are taking away the hassle of my having to find and book flights. What annoyed me was getting to my destination and noticing more convenient flights after being told there was only one flight a day. (mind some of the alternative operators I might think twice about using ....) I prefer to use the same agent as they get to know my foibles. However, I do wonder if I should look for a different agent.
GlueBall
I tried Airline List, and found it very much depends on the airline.
ADL man
Amadeus seemed to showed the 'missing' alternatives for my trips last month. Maybe it has some sort of regional bias?
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Evening Star
another point: travel agents usually offering reasonable connections and prices. just for example, if you take LHR-CDG-NDJ-CDG-LHR all sectors on AirFrance - you will find, that there is only 3 flights a week to NDJ by AF. nevertheless the ticket price will be more or less reasonable.
to be there at exact days without any problems you can take f.e.:
LHR-AMS on BA, then
AMS-KAN on KLM (Kano, Nigeria), then
KAN-NDJ on Ethiopian Airlines
and back
NDJ-DOU on Cameroon Airlines (Douala, Cameroon), then
DOU-CDG on AF, then
CDG-LHR on British European.
yes, you will be more flexible on arrival and departure dates, but you will taste 6 different carriers (including intra-african sectors), and ticket will cost 4-6 times more, than roundtrip on AF.
[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: CargoOne ]
another point: travel agents usually offering reasonable connections and prices. just for example, if you take LHR-CDG-NDJ-CDG-LHR all sectors on AirFrance - you will find, that there is only 3 flights a week to NDJ by AF. nevertheless the ticket price will be more or less reasonable.
to be there at exact days without any problems you can take f.e.:
LHR-AMS on BA, then
AMS-KAN on KLM (Kano, Nigeria), then
KAN-NDJ on Ethiopian Airlines
and back
NDJ-DOU on Cameroon Airlines (Douala, Cameroon), then
DOU-CDG on AF, then
CDG-LHR on British European.
yes, you will be more flexible on arrival and departure dates, but you will taste 6 different carriers (including intra-african sectors), and ticket will cost 4-6 times more, than roundtrip on AF.
[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: CargoOne ]
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Looking at Amadeus, I'm not sure it is a regional bias - rather (as has been said) some airlines are missing completely. Thankfully, not the ones I need!
An example of travel agent (this is a company contract agent, so I think it's more to do with their systems than actual bias) not finding a particular route: A while ago, Phoenix AZ was served by BA as a direct flight from LGW. Actually, Phoenix was the first stop on the way to San Diego. I asked for a direct flight and the agent denied any existed. I then looked up the flight number on Amadeus - when I gave it to the agent, she said "that's the San Diego flight". It took some convincing, but eventually she discovered that it did indeed stop in Phoenix first. I think BA have now replaced that 747 with a separate 777 to each destination, so that confusion should have gone... But there have been many more - that's why Amadeus is my first stop, before picking up the phone
[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: sanjosebaz ]
An example of travel agent (this is a company contract agent, so I think it's more to do with their systems than actual bias) not finding a particular route: A while ago, Phoenix AZ was served by BA as a direct flight from LGW. Actually, Phoenix was the first stop on the way to San Diego. I asked for a direct flight and the agent denied any existed. I then looked up the flight number on Amadeus - when I gave it to the agent, she said "that's the San Diego flight". It took some convincing, but eventually she discovered that it did indeed stop in Phoenix first. I think BA have now replaced that 747 with a separate 777 to each destination, so that confusion should have gone... But there have been many more - that's why Amadeus is my first stop, before picking up the phone
[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: sanjosebaz ]
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Evening Star
Airlines have to pay the booking systems a fee for every booking which is made by a
travel agent using the system on the airline.
Hence airlines like Southwest and Virgin Blue
might decide to save on distribution costs
by not getting listed on the booking system.
Also even with a booking system there is still scope for an agent to miss certain flights.
To give an example ,a friend of mine travelling from Bahrain to Trivandrum in India was awaiting boarding for his flight to Muscat departing around 1030 PM where he was to connect to another Gulf Air flight proceeding to Trivandrum.Just before his flight boarded he found a direct flight to Trivandrum was announced in the departure boards leaving about two hours after his flight to Muscat. He changed planes at Muscat only to find himself in the original
flight to Trivandrum which he saw displayed in the Bahrain departure lounge.
In booking systems flights are displayed for the calendar day. My friend had wanted to leave Bahrain in the night and the travel agent when he looked into his system found no direct flights but only a transfer connection while if the agent had looked at the availabilty for the next day he might have found the direct flight which was leaving 30 minutes after midnight.
My experience shows that some of the situations discussed here can also be due
to travel agents not fully utilising the capabilities of the system.
TK
Airlines have to pay the booking systems a fee for every booking which is made by a
travel agent using the system on the airline.
Hence airlines like Southwest and Virgin Blue
might decide to save on distribution costs
by not getting listed on the booking system.
Also even with a booking system there is still scope for an agent to miss certain flights.
To give an example ,a friend of mine travelling from Bahrain to Trivandrum in India was awaiting boarding for his flight to Muscat departing around 1030 PM where he was to connect to another Gulf Air flight proceeding to Trivandrum.Just before his flight boarded he found a direct flight to Trivandrum was announced in the departure boards leaving about two hours after his flight to Muscat. He changed planes at Muscat only to find himself in the original
flight to Trivandrum which he saw displayed in the Bahrain departure lounge.
In booking systems flights are displayed for the calendar day. My friend had wanted to leave Bahrain in the night and the travel agent when he looked into his system found no direct flights but only a transfer connection while if the agent had looked at the availabilty for the next day he might have found the direct flight which was leaving 30 minutes after midnight.
My experience shows that some of the situations discussed here can also be due
to travel agents not fully utilising the capabilities of the system.
TK
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Evening Star
don't forget not every airline uses agents,the low cost guys cut out the middle man so pending where you want to go,it might be worth logging on to their sites,might save you a few bob along the way!
don't forget not every airline uses agents,the low cost guys cut out the middle man so pending where you want to go,it might be worth logging on to their sites,might save you a few bob along the way!
