What to do with BA miles as I wont fly with them again!
JSL has it right. Cut costs too far, especially on staff, and reap the result. You are better off with the more experienced dedicated staff who are paid well enough that they are capable and not pi**ed off with their management, because they'll often do that bit extra unpaid and they have the bottom line in mind. Plus good staff don't need so many mediocre managers, just one or two good ones.
Sadly, beancounters don't think that way, probably because many of them are mediocre - as an example, look what happened to GEC-Marconi.
Sadly, beancounters don't think that way, probably because many of them are mediocre - as an example, look what happened to GEC-Marconi.
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It used to be commonly held that repeat business was much cheaper for a company than new business.........is that not still the case?
A business may have a primary purpose of making money but, surely, it should have a secondary purpose of staying around long enough to keep making money? Even if there is a little less money each, and every, year?
The world has become a very short-term place; witness this "global credit crunch" caused by people only concerned with the next pound of profit when they should be thinking about the next 10/20 years of profits.
I shall carry on running my own business in the same old way - I want the mortgage to be paid until it ends, not just next month!
A business may have a primary purpose of making money but, surely, it should have a secondary purpose of staying around long enough to keep making money? Even if there is a little less money each, and every, year?
The world has become a very short-term place; witness this "global credit crunch" caused by people only concerned with the next pound of profit when they should be thinking about the next 10/20 years of profits.
I shall carry on running my own business in the same old way - I want the mortgage to be paid until it ends, not just next month!
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Prediction: KLM buys them out in a fire sale and shapes it up. They simply can't exist the way they treat customers. 
If you want proper service use Asian airliners
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12 Blissful years of not flying BA
Fly about 500K miles a year. Stopped Flying BA 12 years ago for about the same issues plus more as mentioned by the posters. I agree it is about the individual and the powers they are given.
I feel they train their staff to be rude and impolite and treat every passenger with suspicion.
Either way I am sure they don't miss me and I don't miss them.
PS: I have had run ins with BA staff from JFK to DEL to BKK
Not a lot of fun and in 2 of the situations found it better to re book on alternate carrier then to fly them.
I feel they train their staff to be rude and impolite and treat every passenger with suspicion.
Either way I am sure they don't miss me and I don't miss them.
PS: I have had run ins with BA staff from JFK to DEL to BKK
Not a lot of fun and in 2 of the situations found it better to re book on alternate carrier then to fly them.
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As an outsider, one thinks maybe BA is better off not having such a customer! Try that little one elsewhere and see how far you get!
Your attitude to people around you gives exactly the story's given in this tread.
Please stay in cockpit and lock the door
(From one who can´t afford arrogances to my customers)
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I'd like to defend the BA ground and flight crew a little, I certainly have always felt very well looked after both on the ground and particularly in the air. It was the management that niggled me.
But I am also in the wrong, I should have booked a fully flexible fare if I found it such a hard pill to swallow loosing my company 3K. I never expected the circumstance to happen to me therefore was quite comfortable with my restricted ticket, although ultimately just a touch surprised by BA's response to a reasonably good customer who books quite a lot of J and F fares per year long haul.
That is the way of the world these days I guess. I better start revising how I do business with my small company, that 300K deposit I gave back 2 years ago because a clients wife was diagnosed with cancer I should clearly have kept in this day and age and spent on some fully flexible fares.
But I am also in the wrong, I should have booked a fully flexible fare if I found it such a hard pill to swallow loosing my company 3K. I never expected the circumstance to happen to me therefore was quite comfortable with my restricted ticket, although ultimately just a touch surprised by BA's response to a reasonably good customer who books quite a lot of J and F fares per year long haul.
That is the way of the world these days I guess. I better start revising how I do business with my small company, that 300K deposit I gave back 2 years ago because a clients wife was diagnosed with cancer I should clearly have kept in this day and age and spent on some fully flexible fares.
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Cheese with your whine, profot? 
It's really very simple: If you want flexibility, pay for it. If you don't, don't. If you occasionally change your plan, appeal to the airline for special consideration. But especially in tough times, don't be surprised if they insist on enforcing conditions of the contract you initiated.
Do they risk losing a customer? Sure. But long term survival demands short term profitability. As I've said before, if the customer's partial to bending the rules, it's a customer that's costing them money. And that's a customer they'd rather send to their competitors.
It's really very simple: If you want flexibility, pay for it. If you don't, don't. If you occasionally change your plan, appeal to the airline for special consideration. But especially in tough times, don't be surprised if they insist on enforcing conditions of the contract you initiated.
Do they risk losing a customer? Sure. But long term survival demands short term profitability. As I've said before, if the customer's partial to bending the rules, it's a customer that's costing them money. And that's a customer they'd rather send to their competitors.
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With apologies for double-posting: Reading back, flyingfemme raises the Value Dilemma - exploit your market in the short term, or develop it in the long? In practice, the maximum Net Present Value is a trade-off between the two.
Here's another side of the coin: Wanton dismissal of enforceable contracts may sound cosy, but generally threatens incomes, jobs and investor confidence. This is not a sound business model.
Here's another side of the coin: Wanton dismissal of enforceable contracts may sound cosy, but generally threatens incomes, jobs and investor confidence. This is not a sound business model.
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Crepello
You are suggenting that it is good business for an airline to lose the custom of a regular traveller because they want to change a non-flexible ticket due to the most exceptional of circumstances? Astonishing.
You are suggenting that it is good business for an airline to lose the custom of a regular traveller because they want to change a non-flexible ticket due to the most exceptional of circumstances? Astonishing.
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Crepello remind me never to hire you to run a business. BA's continuous pettiness and ineffective computer systems, lose them customer after customer I have earned 2.5k tier points 6 of the last 7 years. Now I have told my travel agent LH for everything.
I have worked for big companies and small and I know the secret of running effective businesses is to empower your staff with information systems to allow them to make effective decisions and then give them the power to make decisions.
I ordered a rather nice bottle of wine at dinner last night in a good restaurant, I tasted it and thought it needed air. After about twenty minutes it became clear I didn't like it and the somellier took it away, without any fuss, and got me a bottle of something else. Would that have worked in a little chef- probably not. The question is whether BA wants to be 3 star or little chef I think the answer is clear.
The trouble with treating your gold customers badly when they buy non flex tickets is that they then don't fly with you when they have the budget to fly full price.
I have worked for big companies and small and I know the secret of running effective businesses is to empower your staff with information systems to allow them to make effective decisions and then give them the power to make decisions.
I ordered a rather nice bottle of wine at dinner last night in a good restaurant, I tasted it and thought it needed air. After about twenty minutes it became clear I didn't like it and the somellier took it away, without any fuss, and got me a bottle of something else. Would that have worked in a little chef- probably not. The question is whether BA wants to be 3 star or little chef I think the answer is clear.
The trouble with treating your gold customers badly when they buy non flex tickets is that they then don't fly with you when they have the budget to fly full price.
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andrewwordsworth I can see where you're coming from, but I don't see the connection with the example you quote - the wine did not meet your requirements, so was replaced by one that did.
Nick Riviera, the whole point is that these days, it seems every traveller claims exceptional circumstances for every exemption request. You're suggesting its good business to service these regardless and erode the premium market? Astonishing.
I've been in a similar situation. It didn't even occur to me to call the airline, as I knew my ticket was non-flex. I 'manned up' and paid up for a new single fare. Perhaps I should have flashed my plat-card and demanded 'something for nothing'?
Nick Riviera, the whole point is that these days, it seems every traveller claims exceptional circumstances for every exemption request. You're suggesting its good business to service these regardless and erode the premium market? Astonishing.
I've been in a similar situation. It didn't even occur to me to call the airline, as I knew my ticket was non-flex. I 'manned up' and paid up for a new single fare. Perhaps I should have flashed my plat-card and demanded 'something for nothing'?
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No, Crepello, you don't get it. It is called 'discretion'. A particular traveller, one who spends a lot of money with BA and has made no previous requests in this vein, has made a request to change a non-flex ticket in exceptional circumstances. It would not take a genius to work out that it would not be good business to piss this guy off on this occasion. A small gesture on the airline's side, on this occasion, would have kept the business.
What you have done in similar circumstances is neither here nor there, no matter how 'manly' you were. You think this is good business on BA's part. As I have said, astonishing.
What you have done in similar circumstances is neither here nor there, no matter how 'manly' you were. You think this is good business on BA's part. As I have said, astonishing.
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Take a few deep breaths, Nick. It's clear that my opinion differs from yours. This does not mean that I "don't get it", nor does it render past reactions irrelevant. I don't expect you and I will agree on this, but I would appreciate a little courtesy.
IMHO the customer should not feel 'pissed off'. He made the decision to save money on a discounted ticket. He's now faced with different circumstances and needs to purchase some flexibility. He could beg the courtesy of an exception, but shouldn't presume this will be granted. Ultimately, an airline's survival depends on protecting premium markets against freeloaders.
IMHO the customer should not feel 'pissed off'. He made the decision to save money on a discounted ticket. He's now faced with different circumstances and needs to purchase some flexibility. He could beg the courtesy of an exception, but shouldn't presume this will be granted. Ultimately, an airline's survival depends on protecting premium markets against freeloaders.
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No Crepello, you don't get it, or you are just arguing for the sake of being contrary. I suspect the latter, not that it matters.
You overlook a fundamental concept of customer service which applies in all sectors of service industries. Today's 'little guy' might well be tomorrow's big customer who can influence positively or negatively the flow of business to an organisation.
Years ago I went to open an account at a bank in Rondebosch, close to the University of Cape Town. Because I was young and casually dressed, they assumed I was a penniless student on the scrounge and treated me like crap. I went to another bank and opened accounts for a new and ultimately succesful business I was starting. Over the years family and customers also opened accounts at that bank and we now have a long, mutually beneficial, and happy association. As for the other one, I wouldn't set foot in it.
Recently I went to a restaurant in Palma where I was planning to host a large party (about 70 people) for a reunion of ex-colleagues. Mostly wealthy folk. We (myself and a male friend) were treated like crap, given a bad table, badly served, and I was given lip when I complained that the bottle of wine I'd ordered, and it was not a cheap one, was bought to the table opened instead of being uncorked in front of us. That restaurant not only lost the group of 70 people but also the possibility of any future business from most of the fairly influential people we know who live in, or visit, Majorca on a regualr basis.
I can give you numerous other examples of related situations.
You may think these are poor analogies, you may think that dogmatically sticking to the rules does not equate to poor customer service, but in my book it often does. The guy who buys a cheapie 'fly it or bin it' airline ticket might well be on his first trip with that carrier, or it might be a private trip but if he's well treated he'll give his company business to that carrier.
If you work in a customer service related area of an airline, please tell me which one, as I'll make sure to avoid it!
You overlook a fundamental concept of customer service which applies in all sectors of service industries. Today's 'little guy' might well be tomorrow's big customer who can influence positively or negatively the flow of business to an organisation.
Years ago I went to open an account at a bank in Rondebosch, close to the University of Cape Town. Because I was young and casually dressed, they assumed I was a penniless student on the scrounge and treated me like crap. I went to another bank and opened accounts for a new and ultimately succesful business I was starting. Over the years family and customers also opened accounts at that bank and we now have a long, mutually beneficial, and happy association. As for the other one, I wouldn't set foot in it.
Recently I went to a restaurant in Palma where I was planning to host a large party (about 70 people) for a reunion of ex-colleagues. Mostly wealthy folk. We (myself and a male friend) were treated like crap, given a bad table, badly served, and I was given lip when I complained that the bottle of wine I'd ordered, and it was not a cheap one, was bought to the table opened instead of being uncorked in front of us. That restaurant not only lost the group of 70 people but also the possibility of any future business from most of the fairly influential people we know who live in, or visit, Majorca on a regualr basis.
I can give you numerous other examples of related situations.
You may think these are poor analogies, you may think that dogmatically sticking to the rules does not equate to poor customer service, but in my book it often does. The guy who buys a cheapie 'fly it or bin it' airline ticket might well be on his first trip with that carrier, or it might be a private trip but if he's well treated he'll give his company business to that carrier.
If you work in a customer service related area of an airline, please tell me which one, as I'll make sure to avoid it!
Methinks Crepello must be a lawyer, albeit one with a reasonable grasp of business drivers (if not customer retention propositions) given the numerous references to "contract" betwixt pax & airline. I doubt whether many punters consider purchasing a flight ticket a "contract" (I'm in Purchasing and even to me its not my primary thought). What they do is pay a fair price for the service and (in)flexibility they are getting. Most won't read the small print. People who moan about inflexibility on Ryanair/FlyBE etc clearly don't grasp their business concept but a frequent flyer for BA can't be bracketed the same. The sad thing in this case is that many years ago I worked for BA and even though I wasn't in a customer facing environment we all had to go on courses outilining the importance of retained business vs new business and the 10x factor of sales effort of the latter. I'm sure back then the majority would have made the call to bend the rules. I know times are tight and cash is king but the same rules apply if you can distinguish between genuine circumstances and freeloaders. The latter certainly aren't going to give you premium value repeat business.
Getting back to the original topic, use your miles with other OneWorld carriers or book a BA flight that Jetset Lady is crewing, I'm sure you'll have a better experience.
Getting back to the original topic, use your miles with other OneWorld carriers or book a BA flight that Jetset Lady is crewing, I'm sure you'll have a better experience.
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Oh joy!
I wasn't going to say anything here as it has probably already been said but after 6 weeks afloat without any thoughts of BA or PPrune I thought I should just post a few thoughts.
Profot - you justifiably feel that BA have treated you unfairly -even though they have stuck by the letter of the law ( their ticketing rules ). Being a "frequent flyer" used to mean occasionally, when things didn't go according to plan and/ or we cocked up slightly, having a gold clubcard would persuade BA to just go that extra mile to sort things out - even when they didn't need to. Sorry, that was the old profitable, world's favourite airline etc. BA , not wee willie walsh's big bad budget BA.
Things have changed. Loyalty, and I note that you too were quick to divest any you may have had for BA, counts for nothing - which is perhaps why BA have posted a Q1 loss for the fist time in 22 years. Despite bemoaning the loss of the premium passenger ( and no doubt his/her bags too) they don't appear to be doing very much to hang on to those who have kept them in profit in the years gone by. Indeed WW acknowledges that they may never see some of them again!
Things are tough in aviation and BA have no doubt decided to adopt the MO'L approach to cutomer relations. Is it working? Hmmmm?
Frankly, BA needs to change - that is evident. As far as I was concerned, their benevolence to exec club members used to make up for much else that wasn't too great ( tardiness, pricing etc.) but now (even though they are more punctual and cheaper than they were) I can think of no reason to give them any more business.
There are plentyof choices out there and airlines that really do value you custom. Such a pity that BA don't realise that there is no such thing as customer loyalty.
Flying Femme,
the only reason for being in any business is to make a profit. BA have consistently made profits for many years through bad times and good. Unfortunately, the management have made some very grave errors which have been amplified by a very severe downturn in the economy. Staff relations, fule costs, etc. etc. will not diguise tha fact that management have no vision, and no idea how they will grow the business in the future.
They have lost and continue to lose (loyal?) customers because of some mistaken belief that a rigidly controlled, process driven company will be more efficient and thus more profitable. Regretfully, whilst they may be able to control costs admirably - they have done so to the detriment of their revenue stream. Just doesn't add up. I suspect WW has worn the knees out of his trousers paying for an upturn in business traffic. It will come but will BA still be around to see it?
I wasn't going to say anything here as it has probably already been said but after 6 weeks afloat without any thoughts of BA or PPrune I thought I should just post a few thoughts.
Profot - you justifiably feel that BA have treated you unfairly -even though they have stuck by the letter of the law ( their ticketing rules ). Being a "frequent flyer" used to mean occasionally, when things didn't go according to plan and/ or we cocked up slightly, having a gold clubcard would persuade BA to just go that extra mile to sort things out - even when they didn't need to. Sorry, that was the old profitable, world's favourite airline etc. BA , not wee willie walsh's big bad budget BA.
Things have changed. Loyalty, and I note that you too were quick to divest any you may have had for BA, counts for nothing - which is perhaps why BA have posted a Q1 loss for the fist time in 22 years. Despite bemoaning the loss of the premium passenger ( and no doubt his/her bags too) they don't appear to be doing very much to hang on to those who have kept them in profit in the years gone by. Indeed WW acknowledges that they may never see some of them again!
Things are tough in aviation and BA have no doubt decided to adopt the MO'L approach to cutomer relations. Is it working? Hmmmm?
Frankly, BA needs to change - that is evident. As far as I was concerned, their benevolence to exec club members used to make up for much else that wasn't too great ( tardiness, pricing etc.) but now (even though they are more punctual and cheaper than they were) I can think of no reason to give them any more business.
There are plentyof choices out there and airlines that really do value you custom. Such a pity that BA don't realise that there is no such thing as customer loyalty.
Flying Femme,
the only reason for being in any business is to make a profit. BA have consistently made profits for many years through bad times and good. Unfortunately, the management have made some very grave errors which have been amplified by a very severe downturn in the economy. Staff relations, fule costs, etc. etc. will not diguise tha fact that management have no vision, and no idea how they will grow the business in the future.
They have lost and continue to lose (loyal?) customers because of some mistaken belief that a rigidly controlled, process driven company will be more efficient and thus more profitable. Regretfully, whilst they may be able to control costs admirably - they have done so to the detriment of their revenue stream. Just doesn't add up. I suspect WW has worn the knees out of his trousers paying for an upturn in business traffic. It will come but will BA still be around to see it?
Last edited by Munnyspinner; 4th Aug 2009 at 15:33.
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Just help me clear up one thing, chaps. My opinion differs from yours. Does this mean I'm wrong?We're discussing the tension between customer service and financial discipline - specifically, when the terms of a contract ought be varied. Neither of Capetonian's examples addresses this tension. I gather you believe customer service should reign, and accept this may result in the system being abused. We probably agree that customer service must retain and grow future business. But I believe there should be tight limits on what customer service can do/spend, in order to ensure there is a future for the business. Both our positions are valid.
Naturally, a well treated customer may bring repeat business. But if I'm an airline CEO and his freeloading has just cost me money, why would I want him back? Smile at the customer, politely decline - that's where the service is critical, and hope to see him again soon. Then serve your next customer, a full fare traveller, who's now happy because you didn't just devalue his ticket. You're now balancing short term cashflow with longer term CRM, and that's how to run a business. In my opinion
Edit to clarify: CRM meaning 'customer relationship mgt', not 'cockpit resource mgt'
Last edited by Crepello; 4th Aug 2009 at 15:39.
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My opinion differs from yours. Does this mean I'm wrong?
You're now balancing short term cashflow with longer term CRM, and that's how to run a business