Could you land if pilot died ?
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Could you land if pilot died ?
Not much detail in this, but seems a terrifying scenario . . . . . . .
Passenger lands plane as pilot dies - AOL News
. . . . . . . . and six people convinced they are really lucky to be alive ! !
Passenger lands plane as pilot dies - AOL News
. . . . . . . . and six people convinced they are really lucky to be alive ! !
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Thread is running here: http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...-king-air.html
As I understand it, the key point here was that the guy who landed it was in fact a (PPL?) pilot, albeit only sigle engine rated, and the owner of the a/c concerned - so had some basic knowledge of the a/c.
If (big IF) you have some aviation background and basic a/c handling skills (not FS) you might just be lucky enough to bring a single engined light a/c in. But if a PPL or FS "expert" thinks they could land a widebody airliner, FORGET IT!
If (big IF) you have some aviation background and basic a/c handling skills (not FS) you might just be lucky enough to bring a single engined light a/c in. But if a PPL or FS "expert" thinks they could land a widebody airliner, FORGET IT!
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I'd fancy my chances in a King Air, so long as I had someone on the radio to vector me to a suitable landing airfield and a King Air pilot to talk through the procedures (e.g. turbine engines) and handling. Then again, I have a PPL and have a limited amount of experience on twins, including a Navajo and a lot of experience in the heavier light singles.
In a jet, I would only have a go if the prospect of disaster was greater if I didn't.
I have 15 hours training in a narrow body sim (some years ago) and recognize that it is a far different challenge.
In a jet, I would only have a go if the prospect of disaster was greater if I didn't.
I have 15 hours training in a narrow body sim (some years ago) and recognize that it is a far different challenge.
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This King Air passenger was actually a former PPL/SEP.
He was likely to have a pretty good idea as to what to do to fly the plane.
You might not have a swim since 20 years, yet if falling in water, you remember how.
xxx
I have often invited "non-pilot guests" in simulators during training sessions.
Often, if some 15-20 minutes remained available, I offered them "to land" the airplane.
On autopilot, the only "dont touch switch" is the autopilot disconnect button.
Remember - when "pilots die" - 99% chances that the plane is on autopilot.
To my opinion, landing a Cessna or a Piper might present more problems than airliners.
In a 747 or any airliner - just move the correct switch as you are told.
xxx
These "guests" were told what to do, which switch to move, what heading or speed to dial.
Exactly like can be done on radio.
"Rotate selector clockwise in center of glareshield to LAND position"...
With autoland/autothrottle/autobrakes... you remain on centerline until stop after landing.
Just like magic...
xxx
Happy contrails
He was likely to have a pretty good idea as to what to do to fly the plane.
You might not have a swim since 20 years, yet if falling in water, you remember how.
xxx
I have often invited "non-pilot guests" in simulators during training sessions.
Often, if some 15-20 minutes remained available, I offered them "to land" the airplane.
On autopilot, the only "dont touch switch" is the autopilot disconnect button.
Remember - when "pilots die" - 99% chances that the plane is on autopilot.
To my opinion, landing a Cessna or a Piper might present more problems than airliners.
In a 747 or any airliner - just move the correct switch as you are told.
xxx
These "guests" were told what to do, which switch to move, what heading or speed to dial.
Exactly like can be done on radio.
"Rotate selector clockwise in center of glareshield to LAND position"...
With autoland/autothrottle/autobrakes... you remain on centerline until stop after landing.
Just like magic...
xxx
Happy contrails
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I am confident that I would give a higher probability of survival than the alternative of no-one trying
Anyway, its easy. Just follow instructions for down a bit, up a bit, left a bit until they tell you to flick the switch marked "Fully Automatic ILS".
Anyway, its easy. Just follow instructions for down a bit, up a bit, left a bit until they tell you to flick the switch marked "Fully Automatic ILS".
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But if a PPL or FS "expert" thinks they could land a widebody airliner, FORGET IT!
I'd say the FS 'Expert' has a much better chance to get the thing on the ground in one piece, because FS will have thought them which buttons to press to get it to do an autoland etc.
I have seen non-pilots on their first time ever in a full motion simulator do a decent job getting the thing around the circuit to an acceptable landing.
I have never seen an SEP rated PPL do the same.
Last edited by IRRenewal; 16th Apr 2009 at 13:44. Reason: Spelling
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Many years ago, In a land far far away, I used to fly a DHC-6 (Twin Otter) single crew out in the desert. I carried all sorts backwards and forwards, and one or two people were always out and back with me. One regular would sit in the right hand empty pilots seat, and from time to time would have a go at some straight and level. He became good enough so that I could then read a book. It had no autopilot, so I was always pleased to see him.
Eventually he announced that this flying lark looked easy and that he could land if I dropped dead. So I said, there you go, You have control, I am now dead.
We started level at 10,000'. He pushed the nose down to descend and trimmed it all out very nicely. So far so good. He did however forget to reduce the power, so I had to intervene before the wings blew off, and or, the engines over sped. We continued to hurtle downwards and at some ridiculous speed pointed it at the runway. With some lurching and pulling and pushing we got it lined up. He then decided that flaps would be a good idea. I had to prevent that from happening. Still going far to fast. The relationship between power speed and attitude was lost upon the novice, and I had to take it away from him to rescue me and him from imminent disaster.
He would have definitely have died, had I been dead.
Eventually he announced that this flying lark looked easy and that he could land if I dropped dead. So I said, there you go, You have control, I am now dead.
We started level at 10,000'. He pushed the nose down to descend and trimmed it all out very nicely. So far so good. He did however forget to reduce the power, so I had to intervene before the wings blew off, and or, the engines over sped. We continued to hurtle downwards and at some ridiculous speed pointed it at the runway. With some lurching and pulling and pushing we got it lined up. He then decided that flaps would be a good idea. I had to prevent that from happening. Still going far to fast. The relationship between power speed and attitude was lost upon the novice, and I had to take it away from him to rescue me and him from imminent disaster.
He would have definitely have died, had I been dead.
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If (big IF) you have some aviation background and basic a/c handling skills (not FS) you might just be lucky enough to bring a single engined light a/c in. But if a PPL or FS "expert" thinks they could land a widebody airliner, FORGET IT!
Really?
I have 10000 hours (probably) on FS. I have the 747-400 professional add-on. 95 page FMC manual for the fully functional FMC. Plus the overhead panel is fully functional and comes with a massive f-off manaul.
I'm also doing a PPL. When I was lucky enough (via friend of a friend ad infinitum)to be given a chance to land a 744 in a sim , guess what the landing was near perfect (a/p off at 1250ft localiser and GS established)- a far cry from when I first tried to land a 152 during my PPL.
"these things almost land themselves" could never be more true
Really?
I have 10000 hours (probably) on FS. I have the 747-400 professional add-on. 95 page FMC manual for the fully functional FMC. Plus the overhead panel is fully functional and comes with a massive f-off manaul.
I'm also doing a PPL. When I was lucky enough (via friend of a friend ad infinitum)to be given a chance to land a 744 in a sim , guess what the landing was near perfect (a/p off at 1250ft localiser and GS established)- a far cry from when I first tried to land a 152 during my PPL.
"these things almost land themselves" could never be more true
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"these things almost land themselves" could never be more true
Next time the wind is gusting at 40 knots over the hangers at Heathrow, and the turbulence is so bad that I am having difficulty focusing on the wildly fluctuating airspeed, I shall remind myself of your sage observation.
God protect us from Flight Sim experts.
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L337,
when I take time out to write my own personal opinion, I don't particularly appreciate someone taking the p1ss out of me okay!
The question was broad ok?. "Could you land a plane if the pilot died"
Now obviously if you want to "un"broaden the question to include things like a 40knot gust, landing at Kai Taks RWY 13, 2 engines failed on one wing on a 744, 10 plagues of Egypt at 100ft DH and general
hell raining down on a 50 foot runway then obviously no
It was a broad question.
do one L337
P.s I know Kai Tak is closed
when I take time out to write my own personal opinion, I don't particularly appreciate someone taking the p1ss out of me okay!
The question was broad ok?. "Could you land a plane if the pilot died"
Now obviously if you want to "un"broaden the question to include things like a 40knot gust, landing at Kai Taks RWY 13, 2 engines failed on one wing on a 744, 10 plagues of Egypt at 100ft DH and general
hell raining down on a 50 foot runway then obviously noIt was a broad question.
do one L337
P.s I know Kai Tak is closed
Last edited by Jetdriver; 16th Apr 2009 at 23:50.
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Having had a few efforts in a 737 sim I would say that landing one without any experience would be virtually impossible, a totally different ball game altogether to a C152.
I did manage a landing at Dublin eventually........on the grass though!!
I did manage a landing at Dublin eventually........on the grass though!!
All possible hypothetical scenarios where a non pilot has to land a big jet assume that he can talk to someone who can tell him what switches to press, what headings to fly and what speeds etc.
So, the first step is to find someone to talk to. Ah! First problem. Which one is the Press to Transmit button? How many non pilots (or even PPLs) could find the P to T button first time? i.e. without first accidentally switching off the autopilot, at FL350 and Mach.7? Phew! How many PPLs could hand fly a B737 at that speed and live, let alone a non pilot? I wouldn't know because I've never done it.
I have landed a BA B777 simulator 5 out of 5 times (once at Jersey) but I still wouldn't rate my chances of doing it live for real. But I never had to find the P to T switch.
So, the first step is to find someone to talk to. Ah! First problem. Which one is the Press to Transmit button? How many non pilots (or even PPLs) could find the P to T button first time? i.e. without first accidentally switching off the autopilot, at FL350 and Mach.7? Phew! How many PPLs could hand fly a B737 at that speed and live, let alone a non pilot? I wouldn't know because I've never done it.
I have landed a BA B777 simulator 5 out of 5 times (once at Jersey) but I still wouldn't rate my chances of doing it live for real. But I never had to find the P to T switch.
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While totally bored on a long haul flight I have every now and then pondered how things would work out if both pilots were incapacitated.
I imagine that the first course of action would be to try to see from the manifest if there was qualified flying crew dead heading.
If that and all else failed, would it not be a good idea to have somebody at least able to fly a bit, albeit with no experience on type, rather than just sit and wait for the fuel to dry up a bit?
With relays of advice / instructions from a suitably qualified or experienced pilot on the ground via ATC or directly, do you think that somebody who knows at least the basics of flying could pull off a sort of safe landing?
As a former PPL, now no longer flying, I did once have a bash in a 737 sim (a real one, not a Bill Gates pretend one).
My "instructor" gave me an engine fire on take off, just to add some fun, from Ringway, with fairly massive chunks of Peak District terrain close to hand and inevitably on the side the assymetry would naturally take one.
I did manage to get back down, and the printout the sim produced of the approach profile was, objectively speaking, not bad at all.
But it was only a sim. Would I have been calm enough / able enough if it was real?
I have also pondered how the cabin crew could identify anybody with flying experience without saying "we are a little bit bothered - both pilots are incapacitated - can any passenger fly an aircraft?"
That could be bad for morale.
My best attempt would be for an announcement to be made which would only make sense to aviators (e.g. we are squawking 7700)
Non aviators would tuck into their second gin and tonic, but aviators might make themselves known, and the best candidate to take over could thence be selected.
Any more informed views out there?
I imagine that the first course of action would be to try to see from the manifest if there was qualified flying crew dead heading.
If that and all else failed, would it not be a good idea to have somebody at least able to fly a bit, albeit with no experience on type, rather than just sit and wait for the fuel to dry up a bit?
With relays of advice / instructions from a suitably qualified or experienced pilot on the ground via ATC or directly, do you think that somebody who knows at least the basics of flying could pull off a sort of safe landing?
As a former PPL, now no longer flying, I did once have a bash in a 737 sim (a real one, not a Bill Gates pretend one).
My "instructor" gave me an engine fire on take off, just to add some fun, from Ringway, with fairly massive chunks of Peak District terrain close to hand and inevitably on the side the assymetry would naturally take one.
I did manage to get back down, and the printout the sim produced of the approach profile was, objectively speaking, not bad at all.
But it was only a sim. Would I have been calm enough / able enough if it was real?
I have also pondered how the cabin crew could identify anybody with flying experience without saying "we are a little bit bothered - both pilots are incapacitated - can any passenger fly an aircraft?"
That could be bad for morale.
My best attempt would be for an announcement to be made which would only make sense to aviators (e.g. we are squawking 7700)
Non aviators would tuck into their second gin and tonic, but aviators might make themselves known, and the best candidate to take over could thence be selected.
Any more informed views out there?
I have 10000 hours (probably) on FS.
when I take time out to write my own personal opinion, I don't particularly appreciate someone taking the p1ss out of me okay!
Thank you BSmuppet, you made my day.