New BA carry on rules

[bealine]

One important point is this, just because a wheelie bag is used, it does not imply the luggage is heavier than say, someone with a holdall

Whilst I studied Physics at school, I am no expert but someone at the CAA who investigated the Kegworth crash was! In the case of a trolley bag, the pressure transmitted through one wheel of an empty bag striking someone's head would be equivalent to a soft bag, or grip, weighing about 15 times as much.

That was the reason the CAA quoted 5kgs as the recommended maximum cabin bag weight and no trolley bags! Unfortunately, it was only ever a recommendation and never fully enforceable!

Whoever noticed the "plated weights" of overhead lockers is quite right. Those weights are the absolute maximum the fittings that hold the locker in place are designed to hold, factoring in a bit of leeway for turbulence. Every day, now, these plated weights are being exceeded and, yes, passenger safety is being compromised for the sake of "free enterprise and healthy competition!"

THANK YOU EASYJET FOR COMPROMISING OUR SAFETY - WITHOUT YOU, THE CABIN BAG WEIGHT LIMITS WOULD STILL BE IN PLACE!

[perkin]

Heavy bags falling out of a locker would be more of a concern for me

Exactly my point Even worse if an overloaded section of locker comes down with potentially a couple of hundred kilos of baggage in it...

THANK YOU EASYJET FOR COMPROMISING OUR SAFETY - WITHOUT YOU, THE CABIN BAG WEIGHT LIMITS WOULD STILL BE IN PLACE!

Many of the airlines I've flown with recently have advertised a 10kg limit in the small print, unfortunately its rare for bags to actually be weighed at check-in...surely if the aircraft weight and balance is calculated assuming 10kg of hand luggage per pax, if everyone arrived with 23kg, this could make a significant difference to gross aircraft weight, even on a 737/A320 type? In my opinion the volume of hand luggage is a problem which really needs to be addressed by the airlines on the busier routes...it really isnt fair when someone turns up with nothing but a large briefcase, only to find no locker space as many others have oversize luggage or more bags than permitted.

[Final 3 Greens]

Whoever noticed the "plated weights" of overhead lockers is quite right. Those weights are the absolute maximum the fittings that hold the locker in place are designed to hold, factoring in a bit of leeway for turbulence.

Can any qualified professionals confirm whether these bin limits are included in the aircraft C of A or any other airworthiness documents, or are for guidance only?

[VS-LHRCSA]

I was wondering when you would show up Final 3 Greens. I always like to get your take on these things and no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Can't help with your CofA question but I can confirm Bealine's quote about the Kegworth incident. While the situation was unfolding, long before impact, the aircraft was shaking violently and the contents of the lockers where spilling out and injuring people.

This was 1989 of course, so no wheelie bags and laptops and locker design has been improved since then but it does pose the question of how much of risk is having even heavier bags in the lockers above you.

I can see arguments either way, so am not going to venture an opinion (too tired) but it's makes me wonder.

[Final 3 Greens]

Thanks VS.

Heavy bags dropping out could well induced by the a/c shaking violently, e.g. sev turb or even asymmetric slat, the first of which is certainly more probable than a crash I would have thought.

BTW, I am sure that I recall (last year or two) an airline using some kind of netting restraint in the overhead bins, in the last year or two, which was secured just before closing the lid.

Can't remember the carrier, but it struck me as a very good idea, if not a panacea for all evils.

Risk management is always a contentious matter, since there are may different agendas and risk attitudes, which is why I asked the question about the status of the bins, since if they are an airworthiness issue then aircraft should not be departing with limits exceeded, whereas if only advisory then the benefit-cost calculations come into play.

Having said that, I find it difficult to believe that UK airlines would fly in breach of airworthiness regulations.

[perkin]

an airline using some kind of netting restraint

I know some of Jet2's 733's have these, but that will be a relic of the previous owner (I think they have a few ex-Ansett, Lufthansa and some US derived airframes). Its just a shallow (4 or 5 inches), stretchy net which effectively extends the bottom edge of the locker upwards and is in position all the time, seems a sensible idea to me...

What is perhaps more worrying with BA's new weight limit is the likelihood of overloading the locker structure, which under more extreme loading could well break free...

[Final 3 Greens]

Perkin

Now you mention it, I believe it was Jet2, with whom I have only flown once.

[bealine]

Having said that, I find it difficult to believe that UK airlines would fly in breach of airworthiness regulations.

I agree, to a point. The trouble is, most "regulations" these days are rather woolly and the low cost operators are continually challenging them! Many of the procedures we, as front-line staff, are led to believe are "Regulations" are in fact "Recommendations" which are not the same thing at all! Indeed the 5KG upper limit on cabin baggage after the Kegworth crash was always only a "Recommendation".

Maybe the plated weights on the lockers are "Recommendations" too or "Chinese Writing" (how London Underground speed limits were often described when I worked for them, before the Moorgate disaster! We had more than one Piccadilly Line train returned to Northfields depot with dents in the roof after ignoring the limit at Barons Court when entering the tunnel!).

Going Off Topic, or digressing, for a moment we at British Airways always used to make a big issue about accepting late passengers or baggage. The Dispatcher (now known as a TRM) used to say "I've got my Load Sheet, it's too late to adjust." This was especially true on a lightly loaded machine where some seats were blocked for trim and some passengers may have even had their seats changed to shift the weight fore or aft.

Now that our "Dispatchers" have become "TRM's" (or Turn Round Managers) the responsibility for the Load Sheet has devolved to a separate department away from the airfield.

Since EZY and RYR came on the scene, we block seats for trim only very occasionally and don't seem to move passengers for trim any more. EZY and RYR, with their policy of "free seating" seem to treat their aeroplanes as if they were busses, and their "Dispatchers" seem very young and inexperienced in comparison with our people.

This begs the question, "Is all the fuss about weight and balance, and the Dispatchers giving themselves mental anguish trying to get the Load Sheet to balance all an elaborate myth to create an aura of mystique around the job?

Or, more seriously, are certain criteria that we used to worry about now simply being ignored? (and I am NOT for one second saying they are, I am merely posing the question!)

[bealine]

it really isnt fair when someone turns up with nothing but a large briefcase, only to find no locker space as many others have oversize luggage or more bags than permitted.

I agree wholeheartedly!

The only trouble is, my own airline, British Airways, has had such horrendous problems with missing baggage that many passengers are understandably reluctant to let their bag go in the hold.

(Not all the fault of BA I hasten to add - a lot of this has to do with the ancient systems at Heathrow never designed to cope with the number of bags it is having to deal with!)