Why Flying in the USA Sucks
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The Reagan Era convinced the majority of Americans to place too much trust and power in large corporations.
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I think 411A has totally missed the point of the thread which is why flying sucks for the passengers...
I don't think ALPA has much to do with back-end service failures, but I know all unions are a pet peeve of 411's, and one simply can't miss a free salvo across the bow, now, can we?
Ryan - you must be flying on Ryanair or EasyJet all the time, because comparing like-for-like 'full-service' carriers in the US versus, say, Asia leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I'm ashamed to say our 'service' has reached rock bottom and continued burrowing...and management's excuse is: "We' simply don't see why we should provide anything for the passengers above the absolute minimum; rock-bottom fares beget rock-bottom service".
I don't think ALPA has much to do with back-end service failures, but I know all unions are a pet peeve of 411's, and one simply can't miss a free salvo across the bow, now, can we?
Ryan - you must be flying on Ryanair or EasyJet all the time, because comparing like-for-like 'full-service' carriers in the US versus, say, Asia leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I'm ashamed to say our 'service' has reached rock bottom and continued burrowing...and management's excuse is: "We' simply don't see why we should provide anything for the passengers above the absolute minimum; rock-bottom fares beget rock-bottom service".
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I think it is a great idea to try to find out how to run an airline so that it is successful as a business and the employees are happy at their job.
Unfortunately, no one on earth appears to know how to do it. And it is not like there is any shortage of people trying to figure out how, which one can see by regularly reading journals such as The Economist. Air travel is a notoriously cyclical business, where what worked five years ago no longer does. In other words, there is no obvious business model that is also realistic.
I think blaming greed and incompetence of executives is the wrong approach. Total executive compensation is trivial in comparison with the routine employee costs of your average large airline, so if one paid executives the same as pilots it wouldn't make much difference at all to the business model and the sinking airline would still drown. And on the other hand if you find that rare genius who can actually make your airline profitable in the long run with happy contented employees, you might as well pay himher what heshe wants because it is only a blip and your business is successful. I understand that this is the usual justification for high executive compensation but that does not make it any the less true.
One of the main reasons Southwest appears to be doing so well is that they hedged their fuel costs. It is smart but it is also time-limited and also not everyone can do it. One of the other reasons is that Kelleher was smart enough to avoid much of the legacy business structure that handtied other airlines when it came to adjusting to the cycles, and he was there first. You know, like Ryanair, that airline for which I hear every pilot would give hisher hind teeth to work...
PBL
Unfortunately, no one on earth appears to know how to do it. And it is not like there is any shortage of people trying to figure out how, which one can see by regularly reading journals such as The Economist. Air travel is a notoriously cyclical business, where what worked five years ago no longer does. In other words, there is no obvious business model that is also realistic.
I think blaming greed and incompetence of executives is the wrong approach. Total executive compensation is trivial in comparison with the routine employee costs of your average large airline, so if one paid executives the same as pilots it wouldn't make much difference at all to the business model and the sinking airline would still drown. And on the other hand if you find that rare genius who can actually make your airline profitable in the long run with happy contented employees, you might as well pay himher what heshe wants because it is only a blip and your business is successful. I understand that this is the usual justification for high executive compensation but that does not make it any the less true.
One of the main reasons Southwest appears to be doing so well is that they hedged their fuel costs. It is smart but it is also time-limited and also not everyone can do it. One of the other reasons is that Kelleher was smart enough to avoid much of the legacy business structure that handtied other airlines when it came to adjusting to the cycles, and he was there first. You know, like Ryanair, that airline for which I hear every pilot would give hisher hind teeth to work...
PBL
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funny you mention bread. Bread is much more expensive today than 7 years ago...yet airline fares are not going up at such a rate.
I paid US $4.50 for one loaf of bread today. It was much less a few years ago.
if one baker poisons a hundred loaves of bread...500 could die
if one pilot slams his plane into a building, thousands could die.
both jobs are important. but I know how much I spent learning to fly...and how easy it is to make a loaf of bread. I can get a book that will tell me how to bake and do quite well...try it with flying.
I paid US $4.50 for one loaf of bread today. It was much less a few years ago.
if one baker poisons a hundred loaves of bread...500 could die
if one pilot slams his plane into a building, thousands could die.
both jobs are important. but I know how much I spent learning to fly...and how easy it is to make a loaf of bread. I can get a book that will tell me how to bake and do quite well...try it with flying.
If there were a Darwin award for flyers' careers, I'd nominate your posting. With an attitude like this, you're gonna do great.
PB
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As I've never worked for a unionized carrier, RRAAMJET, I really couldn't give a stuff about unions...however, I do know a quite a few folks that were right and truly sold down the river by ALPO (Eastern Air Lines folks, for example) so as for unions in general...not worth the bother it seems to me.
Look at BALPA in the UK...paper tiger, personified.
Look at BALPA in the UK...paper tiger, personified.
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Airlines are not shy of high prices when they can get away with it;just flew with BMI London to Moscow one way ticket £432 (this is a cheap price on this route) & they had the cheek to charge me for my drink.I would support higher prices by taxing aviation fuel (the greens would like this too,not that I am one) However this solution would require worldwide action,so that all aviation is paying the same tax,not so impossible considering governments love a new tax if their people let them get away with it,which in this case they would due to the global warming hysteria.
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Hmmm, much higher taxes, less flying, fewer aeroplanes, fewer pilots needed.
As a side benefit, eliminating any future pilot 'shortage' and keeping the older guys employed ('til age 65) meaning, no advancment for the First Officers, for awhile.
Oh, I can hear the cries of anguish now...boo hoo
As a side benefit, eliminating any future pilot 'shortage' and keeping the older guys employed ('til age 65) meaning, no advancment for the First Officers, for awhile.
Oh, I can hear the cries of anguish now...boo hoo
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For the umpteenth time, 411, the topic is about the experience in the back...knock it off with the social hand-grenades and adjust your Depends for more thoughtful computer work...'grief...
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If the 'experience' for the folks in back was so bad, RRAAMJET, airplanes would not have many pax.
As it is...quite high load factors are experienced by most US carriers.
The flying public will put up with a lot it seems to me....except higher fares.
Expect no improvement for the customers...
As it is...quite high load factors are experienced by most US carriers.
The flying public will put up with a lot it seems to me....except higher fares.
Expect no improvement for the customers...
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Good letter in the Financial Times today on this very subject...
From Mr Matt Andersson.
Sir, Philip Stephens (“British Airways catches the Heathrow disease”, December 18) and respondents David Sands and Rick Medlock (Letters, December 24) point the right direction for potential airline industry solutions: regulation. However, merely auctioning off landing slots or mandating certain consumer protections as they suggest would likely prove disappointing and insufficient.
Preceding any smart regulatory action is smart policy that reflects the specific economics of the aviation industry: like energy, telecom and water, it is a natural monopoly, an industry that cannot function reliably and efficiently over the long term except in a limited competitive arrangement. This stems from aviation's unusually high fixed costs, operating intensity and other obligations, including maintenance, security and infrastructure.
Our now 30-year experiment in deregulation has provided clear evidence that the world's best airlines operate in oligopoly or duopoly environments (Australia, UAE), or consist of recent merger and partial consolidation (Air France/KLM; Lufthansa/Swiss).
But beyond a more supportive market structure is the logic of an integrated industrial arrangement. The five As (aircraft, airports, airspace, airlines, after-market) all operate as distinct, unco-ordinated entities with separate ownership, capital structures, regulation, credit strength and budgeting. Until these are synchronised, then uneven capacity, resulting from distorted signals of supply and demand coupled with isolated, unco-ordinated operations functions, will continue to define consumer air travel.
Matt Andersson,
President,
Indigo Aerospace,
Chicago, IL 60606, US
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007
Originally Posted by FT Letters Page
From Mr Matt Andersson.
Sir, Philip Stephens (“British Airways catches the Heathrow disease”, December 18) and respondents David Sands and Rick Medlock (Letters, December 24) point the right direction for potential airline industry solutions: regulation. However, merely auctioning off landing slots or mandating certain consumer protections as they suggest would likely prove disappointing and insufficient.
Preceding any smart regulatory action is smart policy that reflects the specific economics of the aviation industry: like energy, telecom and water, it is a natural monopoly, an industry that cannot function reliably and efficiently over the long term except in a limited competitive arrangement. This stems from aviation's unusually high fixed costs, operating intensity and other obligations, including maintenance, security and infrastructure.
Our now 30-year experiment in deregulation has provided clear evidence that the world's best airlines operate in oligopoly or duopoly environments (Australia, UAE), or consist of recent merger and partial consolidation (Air France/KLM; Lufthansa/Swiss).
But beyond a more supportive market structure is the logic of an integrated industrial arrangement. The five As (aircraft, airports, airspace, airlines, after-market) all operate as distinct, unco-ordinated entities with separate ownership, capital structures, regulation, credit strength and budgeting. Until these are synchronised, then uneven capacity, resulting from distorted signals of supply and demand coupled with isolated, unco-ordinated operations functions, will continue to define consumer air travel.
Matt Andersson,
President,
Indigo Aerospace,
Chicago, IL 60606, US
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007
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The idea is that you pay for your destination. You are not paying to eat, drink or watch a movie - you are paying to get from A to B. Aviation is for the most part transportation, not a cruise. If you want better service and are ready to pay for it - book First Class! 
The public has voted with their wallets - they will take a lower fare over a complimentary meal service on a domestic flight any day. Personally, I see no problem with this. It's a reality of our much more globalized world - people need to get places and the actual transport is not such a big deal anymore, it's the destination that matters.
I've got to say though, I would pay around 20% more for the airline that offers a meal, a drink and a PTV!
The public has voted with their wallets - they will take a lower fare over a complimentary meal service on a domestic flight any day. Personally, I see no problem with this. It's a reality of our much more globalized world - people need to get places and the actual transport is not such a big deal anymore, it's the destination that matters.
I've got to say though, I would pay around 20% more for the airline that offers a meal, a drink and a PTV!
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SAFFRON - PLEASE PLEASE do not think aviation fuel is tax free. AVTUR certainly is but those of us who still fly piston aircraft on business pay a very high rate of duty and VAT for AVGAS. Current price is over 3 TIMES that of AVTUR.
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Realise Avgas is taxed, but thought we were discussing airlines.On the point of a contract to get you to your destination I agree,IF the fair is good value.If an airline is going to charge me a full service fair (I think you would agree that £432 London to Moscow is that) then I expect a full service.BA charge identical fares but don't charge for drinks,guess which airline I will be using next time.(a fact which I have pointed out to BMI)
Trash du Blanc
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The public has voted with their wallets - they will take a lower fare over a complimentary meal service on a domestic flight any day. Personally, I see no problem with this. It's a reality of our much more globalized world - people need to get places and the actual transport is not such a big deal anymore, it's the destination that matters.
But in aviation, you go below that floor, you are extremely dead. Kind of a rough free market when the only way to find the lowest possible price is to start mort-ing people.....
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For the Record
this thread was started for both the front (pilots) and back ( passengers). So all comments should be welcomed.
Two people have commented on my "bread" thought.
I stand by it. And I think you should all ask a baker if its easier to bake bread than fly a plane.
I've done ok in aviation and don't need an attitude check via people who don't know me or haven't flown with me.
Two people have commented on my "bread" thought.
I stand by it. And I think you should all ask a baker if its easier to bake bread than fly a plane.
I've done ok in aviation and don't need an attitude check via people who don't know me or haven't flown with me.
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Sevenstrokeroll don't worry about it,there are always people in this world looking to take offense. In the great Victorian novel 'North & South' the heroine,daughter of a vicar who has a crisis of faith & gives up his comfortable living in Hampshire to move to Manchester,remarks to a local girl; 'I'm so sorry I didn't mean to cause offense' the Manchester girl replies 'Don't worry lass if there's offense to be given you can be sure we'll take it'.... Still makes me laugh.
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I see the problem a little differently: it seems to me (an American based in London) that the problem is that there isn't any way for the market to push airlines towards better service. Yes, you can fly business class, but the gap between economy fares and business is so large that it doesn't provide a test for whether, say, a decent number of people would be willing to pay 10-20% extra for better service.
I've been gold SLF on US Airways for quite a few years now, and the in-flight services have noticeably declined: the meals keep getting smaller and less edible. In the last six months, they've taken the Airbuses with their economy class power outlets and personal video off the Gatwick-Philadelphia route, replacing them with older Boeings with no such amenities. One flight a few months ago we were put on a Boeing small enough (one aisle, no galley space) that it didn't have enough fuel to hold at Philadelphia and we had to stop at Boston to fuel up, delaying us by a couple of hours. Other than complaining to the airline - which I did - or taking my business elsewhere there is no way for me to signal to them that I'd pay a bit more to have better service. Business class passengers don't either: sure they can pay 6-10x as much for the bigger seat and better food, but they still get stuck with the same delays the economy passengers do. How can the market be constructed to provide better feedback?
wg
P.S. I want to add that the staff on that cramped Boeing were excellent and extremely professional. They absolutely did their best, including in being comfortably polite in listening to the irate Israeli woman in the next seat who did not stop b*I&^ching the entire flight - about the food, the seats, the overhead movies, the Gatwick departure that caused her to miss the flight the previous day when she went to Heathrow...)
I've been gold SLF on US Airways for quite a few years now, and the in-flight services have noticeably declined: the meals keep getting smaller and less edible. In the last six months, they've taken the Airbuses with their economy class power outlets and personal video off the Gatwick-Philadelphia route, replacing them with older Boeings with no such amenities. One flight a few months ago we were put on a Boeing small enough (one aisle, no galley space) that it didn't have enough fuel to hold at Philadelphia and we had to stop at Boston to fuel up, delaying us by a couple of hours. Other than complaining to the airline - which I did - or taking my business elsewhere there is no way for me to signal to them that I'd pay a bit more to have better service. Business class passengers don't either: sure they can pay 6-10x as much for the bigger seat and better food, but they still get stuck with the same delays the economy passengers do. How can the market be constructed to provide better feedback?
wg
P.S. I want to add that the staff on that cramped Boeing were excellent and extremely professional. They absolutely did their best, including in being comfortably polite in listening to the irate Israeli woman in the next seat who did not stop b*I&^ching the entire flight - about the food, the seats, the overhead movies, the Gatwick departure that caused her to miss the flight the previous day when she went to Heathrow...)
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...One flight a few months ago we were put on a Boeing small enough (one aisle, no galley space) that it didn't have enough fuel to hold at Philadelphia and we had to stop at Boston to fuel up, delaying us by a couple of hours.