Drama on First Choice

[strid]

POP-MAN Arrival 19/6/07
Essentially quite a nervous trip. Approx 15 mins into the flight all cabin crew remained seated and the IFE was still off. About 10 more mins passed when the Capt asked for one member of the cabin crew to attend the flight deck, over the pa system all audible waning sounds could be heard. Then the engine noise varied from loud to v quiet and some occasional buffeting was noticed, It was also apparent that at least twice sounds associated with the landing gear being raised and lowered was witnessed. All of this did create for the vast majority a rather stressful period. I reckon it took a good hour for the Capt to announce that the aircraft had a 'computer issue' and it thought we were still on the ground??
He said he'd spoken with centre and they agreed that a divert wasn't required and that we'd now passed Bermuda we were uk to continue with the remainder of the flight across the Atlantic.
Now, i was wondering if anyone else here was/is associated with this trip/flight company and could they verify the event/circumstances.
I also would like to enquire that whilst i fully appreciate that the crew would have been very busy particularly early on, but am i wrong to think that for perhaps an hr with no feed back when it's very apparent that there's some form of issue is not best practice??

[Rainboe]

It's not that certain there was an 'issue' to be handled in the first place. There was 'buffeting'. Maybe a bit of turbulence requiring seat belt signs and hence cabin crew remaining seated and unable to activate IFE? Engine noise varies a lot in every climb when power is changed for level off. It would seem possibly there were problems with a ground/flight microswitch, which were presumably solved as the aerolane went on to make an Atlantic crossing otherwise you wouldn't have got pressurised, but sometimes inexperienced flyers mistake flap noises for gear noises. Probably no feedback because the 'incident' is largely in your mind and the Captain felt he had said all that needed to be said. A non-event perhaps? And this is posted in the wrong place.

[Contacttower]

He said he'd spoken with centre and they agreed that a divert wasn't required

Not in any way accusing you Rainboe of talking down to people but if the Captain had a discussion about diverting then there obviously was an issue and to me the (as SLF and PPL) the sound of gear and flaps sounds very different.

[Topslide6]

[swh]

maybe hot brakes, drop the wheels to cool them down....max altitudes for raising and lowering the gear, as well as airspeeds limits could fit the description

[flyinthesky]

Why is it that when I go to Tesco/ my bank or anywhere else that uses technology, I do not automatically insist/expect an indepth update, the minute said technology throws a wobbler.

Onboard an aeroplane, everyone is an instant expert. You only have to position down the back incognito to hear some of the funniest comments ever.

I think I can speak for virtually all PROFESSIONAL pilots when I say that we react to each situation seriously and we do not put ourselves at risk (never mind the people down the back) If your flight crew had assessed the situation and elected to continue, then that, in all probability would have been the best course of action.

Believe me, even a minor problem can occupy ones thoughts for an hour easily, perhaps that is why there was no PA. Or perhaps the flight deck didn't think one was needed. It is a nicety but certainly not essential.

[smala01]

There is a rather unpleasant habit on PPRUNE to rubbish SLF contributions as "being ignorant and clearly not knowing what they are talking about"

It’s very clear that this guy was spooked because of some kind of unusual activity on his flight.

It’s also probable that the gear would be cycled with this kind of problem (i.e. plane thinks its on the ground) and that it’s also probable that some passengers would notice that this was unusual.

Of course only the flight crew know how busy they were in the cockpit during that time, but its worth considering that a quick call to the passengers (or via the cabin crew) before this activity could have prevented some un-easy minds.

A calming voice from up front is very reassuring to SLF, regardless of what is actually said in the announcement.

[westie]

Drama on First Choice????
God you guys really take the biscuit. I know this is a rumour mill but try and keep to real life rather than fantasy. Yes I agree maybe a PA should have been made sooner, but without know all the circumstances then I cannot comment. "Maybe hot brakes, maybe he dropped the gear, cabin crew kept seating and oh no, no IFE for the first 15 minutes"
Who knows what was the 'issue' but take it from me at no time was safety compromised and if a divert was considered then it could have been for an awful lots of reasons, not least it was an ETOPS flight and if an instrument was not performing correctly then this would have been a consideration. Honestly guys if you are professional pilots then you would realise that minor technical issues occur very regularly and are dealt with, end of story. A case here of a mountain out of a molehill again i think.

Flyinthesky - Exactly what I have just said.

[sinala1]

Originally Posted by flyinthesky

Why is it that when I go to Tesco/ my bank or anywhere else that uses technology, I do not automatically insist/expect an indepth update, the minute said technology throws a wobbler.

Originally Posted by flyinthesky

Onboard an aeroplane, everyone is an instant expert. You only have to position down the back incognito to hear some of the funniest comments ever.

The difference being though that people fear the moment something goes wrong on an aeroplane then their life is at risk (which those of us who are in the industry obviously know is not true). The cash machine doesn't have the ability to go into a "death plunge" - narrowly missing orphanages/nuns pushing prams/brood of ducklings etc etc, requiring heroic pilot action to narrowly avert "disaster".

I think its possibly a little harsh to immediately dismiss peoples desire for knowledge when they are able to come to such dramatic conclusions - which, if the event/timing allowed (obviously), could be easily allayed with a quick reassuring PA. Many times in the cabin have I seen pax behaviour change immediately (eg turbulence) after a quick word from the flight deck - even though practically the exact same words had fallen out of my mouth not 5 seconds earlier. When it comes to safety (ie airworthiness) stuff (incorrectly percieved by pax or otherwise), they love to hear the reassuring words of the flight crew.

edited to say Smala010 has just posted more or less the same thing I am saying, whilst I was typing my post

[General Dread]

It would do some of you pilots good to remember that a mole-hill to the all knowing flight crew is a mountain to some of the SLF down the back who are not expert flyers, maybe nervous flyers, and can’t differentiate between different noises etc. Especially when said SLF are not told what’s going on. A minor event, which some of you may feel doesn’t warrant a PA, might actually be causing quite a bit of panic in the back amongst certain SLF.

All I’m saying is A) spare a thought for the SLF now and again and B) don’t flame SLF who come here with a story to tell.

gricesj grabs his flak jacket and awaits the torrent of abuse that is sure to follow

[Contacttower]

It is true that some SLF have a habit of fearing the worse, but that is partly because they don't know much about how a flight is actually conducted. That is why I think PA from the flight deck is very important. Although I agree this does sound like one of the biggest non events I've ever seen on this forum;

"plane thought it was still on ground"

actually sounds quite amusing when one thinks about it.

[smala01]

Honestly guys if you are professional pilots then you would realise that minor technical issues occur very regularly and are dealt with, end of story.

But of course the point here is that the original poster was not a professional pilot and dose not understand about minor technical issues...

end of story

Well, only if you are OK with one of your customers having an unpleasant flying experience and possibly choosing one of your competitors next time he takes a flight.

[flyinthesky]

Smala01

'a tendency to rubbish SLF comments'

Perhaps that is why this website is called the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. You pays your money!!!

If the SLF posted in the SLF forum then perhaps they would get a slightly more gentle response. Fact is that they post in professional forums and cast aspersions on the conduct of the very people whose forum it is. They are not in receipt of all the facts, somtimes do not understand all the facts but are VERY ready to start the stone throwing.

On a slightly more conciliatory note, we do not make a habit of forgetting about our charges seated in the back but have they ever tried an HF phone patch from the carribean back to MAINTROL to work out if they are ETOPS compliant.

Sinala

yes, a few kind stroking words do help, but not at the expense of working through the problem and diverting ones thought train.

gricesj

I agree with you. But is this the right place to post your comments. They have their own forum. Unfortunately ours has been overrun by spotters/SLF to the point of making a professional discussion damn near impossible!

[the_hawk]

Believe me, even a minor problem can occupy ones thoughts for an hour easily, perhaps that is why there was no PA.

No, I as a SLF don't want to accept that. Reminds me too much of Eastern 401 in 1972.

Unfortunately ours has been overrun by spotters/SLF to the point of making a professional discussion damn near impossible!

Hm OK...trying to get a professional aproach to it, I ask: are there SOPs / accepted guidelines as to when (regarding time and graveness of the "problem") a PA shall / should be done ?

[sinala1]

Originally Posted by flyinthesky

but not at the expense of working through the problem and diverting ones thought train

Agreed, hence why I said

which, if the event/timing allowed (obviously), could be easily allayed with a quick reassuring PA

plane thought it was still on ground

PSEU strut issues?

[Contacttower]

I sympathise with airline crew over PA announcements; I have enough mental capacity problems as it is trying to diagnose problems, aviate, navigate, communicate etc in a comparatively simple 40 year old Super Cub, without the trouble of having to constantly tell people that the noise they just heard was nothing to worry about or that the IFE isn't working because I didn't switch it on.

[Dogs_ears_up]

As the Cabin Supervisor, I would consider it as one of my duties to relay information of the mood in the cabin to the Captain, and to suggest communication if I considered it appropriate. In the event that the Flight Crew were too busy, I would seek permission to make a "holding" PA myself, pending a later, more authoritative PA from the Captain. In short, Cabin Crew are part of the team, working in the cabin on behalf of the Captain, and he/she relies on them to handle some aspects of the communication/people duties on his/her behalf.

• P.S. This is not a criticsm of the crew involved: I was not there and cannot know - this is merely an observation, intended to clarify a question.
  
• P.P.S. I have been flying long enough to know when is not an appropriate time to be troubling busy Flight Crew with cabin communication issues.
  
• P.P.P.S. This is not an attempt to erode the authority of the Captain, or to exaggerate the role and importance of the Cabin Team

[5711N0205W]

If the SLF posted in the SLF forum then perhaps they would get a slightly more gentle response. Fact is that they post in professional forums and cast aspersions on the conduct of the very people whose forum it is.

flyinthesky if you re read the original post you will see it is of an enquiring nature rather than casting aspersions. Perhaps it is in the wrong forum (whether it should be SLF or Questions is open to debate) but a gentle reminder and redirection for this first time poster is the appropriate response whatever the general feeling.

[Rainboe]

Dogs Ears, you have described a perfectly integrated and efficient crew working practice. Excellent teamwork.

This is casting aspersions, not just 'enquiring':

I also would like to enquire that whilst i fully appreciate that the crew would have been very busy particularly early on, but am i wrong to think that for perhaps an hr with no feed back when it's very apparent that there's some form of issue is not best practice??

The poster obviously got himself into an anxious frame of mind. I know I would not have lowered or raised the gear at unusual times without announcing why. If strid was so nervous about this situation (that may have only mostly existed in his mind), did he enquire of the cabin crew what was going on, rather than just sit there and perhaps expect his possibly private imaginary anxieties be addressed by the Captain? Did he not think if they were continuing, then maybe there might not have been a serious problem? That if they continued on two across the Atlantic, then it was really 'awright'? Or if any such problem had existed, it may have been fixed?

This is a Prof Pilot forum. As stated it is becoming difficult for Prof Pilots to engage in Professional dialogue. Are we to expect every passenger with a beef about his treatment to invade every area where pilots can converse with other pilots? This thread does not belong here- it is making the whole area of professional communication constipated by inanities like this. Pilots cannot communicate with other pilots because of so much dross from people who should not post where they don't belong. This post is one example- he knows it belongs elsewhere.

[the_hawk]

When someones is new to a forum, he will choose the top sub-forum for his first posting in >>50% of all cases (not only PPRuNe, generally speaking). If it is really the problem, Danny should move Questions up front or a new sub-forum "Atrium", "Entry Hall", whatever...