Gatwick North terminal - not my aisle!!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: London
Age: 60
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Xeque
Poor Britain. It's all very well moaning about the situation in forums like this but, until you get off your collective butts and really take matters into your own hands, you are going to be prey to the cretins who have been put into positions of 'authority' by 'Blurr', 'Broon' and their cohorts. Political correctness, over-emphasised terrorist threat, 'elf 'n' safety' - it's all the staff of life to these fools.
"Political correctness" is an expression made up by those who do not believe that everyone deserves to be treated with equal respect.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: not a million miles from old BKK
Posts: 494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rusland 17
"Political correctness" is an expression made up by those who do not believe that everyone deserves to be treated with equal respect.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: egsh
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UK Airport security personnel, by treating everyone as a potential terrorist, lay themselves wide open to the total disrespect and disdain of the traveling public. A modicum of common sense applied to their interpretation of the job description would go a long way to help but, sadly, common sense seems to be in short supply where these goons are concerned.
After going through the archway thing and not causing it to beep, I am face to face with a security chappie who holds his arms out sideways at shoulder height, you know the way they do, like a poor imitation of the Angel of the North, which apparently translates verbally into "Would you awefully mind if I search you?"
I raise my arms as high as my disability allows, which to be frank is not very high.
He then engages more normal communication mode (i.e. speech) and asks me to hold my arms up in the air. (Why do they want you to remain like that while they have moved on down and are intensely busy around your ankles? But I digress)
A short, but to the point, explanation from me that being disabled, I just can't do it.
This is the bit I like.
He asks whether it would be painful or uncomfortable if he touches me.
I answer in the negative as long as his frisking is not too aggressive.
"Oh, that's grand" followed by a delicate, but effective, I think, frisk.
He wished me a pleasant flight and I wandered off in far better mood than usual after a search.
Was he trained to ask that question? If so, good for "them".
Or was he just intelligent and humane, in which case good for him.
Either way, nice chap.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: A whole new world now!!
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have just read this thread which has some very interesting responses on particularly the one about being treated as "a potential terroist" leading to no respect etc
Every day I work I go through LGW security and at all times I am treated with courtesy and respect because that is the way I treat these people who have targets to meet and a thankless job to do. It is also one of the most important in safeguarding the traveling public. There are times when I become frustrated by the invasion of privacy and some of the inconsistencies which appears to depend on the discretion of the screener or their supervisor.
I am treated as a "potential terroist" until I prove otherwise and it shouldn't be any other way for anyone.....crew or pax. That is why we have the security checks which are subject to DfT regulations.
Did anybody watch the footage of the bad guys boarding United 93? All very civilised and respectful but not one of them treated as the potential terroists they were and it appeared subject to very few, if any, security checks in the USA.
The system now is not perfect. I get frustrated by some of the organisational issues in the terminal when I travel as SLF....I stood in line for two hours at LGW over the xmas period with two under 5's just to go to Guernsey and yes there are the odd self important jobsworth's as in any job.
I would put up with any of this just to know that when I board a flight as either SLF or crew everyone on board has been subject to rigourous security screening. However I'm sure there will be people who disagree with this.
Every day I work I go through LGW security and at all times I am treated with courtesy and respect because that is the way I treat these people who have targets to meet and a thankless job to do. It is also one of the most important in safeguarding the traveling public. There are times when I become frustrated by the invasion of privacy and some of the inconsistencies which appears to depend on the discretion of the screener or their supervisor.
I am treated as a "potential terroist" until I prove otherwise and it shouldn't be any other way for anyone.....crew or pax. That is why we have the security checks which are subject to DfT regulations.
Did anybody watch the footage of the bad guys boarding United 93? All very civilised and respectful but not one of them treated as the potential terroists they were and it appeared subject to very few, if any, security checks in the USA.
The system now is not perfect. I get frustrated by some of the organisational issues in the terminal when I travel as SLF....I stood in line for two hours at LGW over the xmas period with two under 5's just to go to Guernsey and yes there are the odd self important jobsworth's as in any job.
I would put up with any of this just to know that when I board a flight as either SLF or crew everyone on board has been subject to rigourous security screening. However I'm sure there will be people who disagree with this.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
who have targets to meet
You stood in a queue for two hours because of bad management in underesourcing the bloody obvious. Not enough screeners on duty / not enough slack to meet contingencies. That's Running an Airport 1.01 and BAA can't do it. It's not rocket science but somehow our lot arse it up every time.
Is it right to treat everyone as a potential terrorist in the fact that you screen them properly and to a high standard? YES
Is it right to treat everyone as a potential terrorist in the fact that you bark at them, manhandle them and are surly and rude to a civil question simply because you are fed up being asked and you find the public to be big thickos?
NO, I hear McDonalds is hiring if you do....
If you can't see the above distinction then God help us. I agree with the above poster, my treatment in Ireland ( and Europe ) has ALWAYS been professinally screened to a high standard as far as I can tell, but without the British disease of contempt for ones fellow men.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: not a million miles from old BKK
Posts: 494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lowcostdolly
I take your point.
I have traveled through Bangkok, Singapore, Penang, Kuala Lumpur and Bander Seri (Brunei) in the last 24 months. The security requirements at each of these departure points is the same as in the UK or the United States. Yet, there were no queues, passengers were treated courteously as those special people who pay the wages of airport employees, the necessary checks were carried out and I (for one) passed through the process hardly knowing that it had been carried out at all. And that is how it should be.
What is it that makes security staff at British airports so bl00dy rude and (frankly) so useless at their jobs?
As I said in an earlier post - make Broon and Co join the same queue as regular passengers. This stupidity would be finished in an instant.
I have traveled through Bangkok, Singapore, Penang, Kuala Lumpur and Bander Seri (Brunei) in the last 24 months. The security requirements at each of these departure points is the same as in the UK or the United States. Yet, there were no queues, passengers were treated courteously as those special people who pay the wages of airport employees, the necessary checks were carried out and I (for one) passed through the process hardly knowing that it had been carried out at all. And that is how it should be.
What is it that makes security staff at British airports so bl00dy rude and (frankly) so useless at their jobs?
As I said in an earlier post - make Broon and Co join the same queue as regular passengers. This stupidity would be finished in an instant.
Last edited by Xeque; 10th Oct 2009 at 13:22.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: A whole new world now!!
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skipness..... Thank you for telling me I stood on line for 2 hours due to bad management/undersourcing etc. Had grasped that thank you but I still got a decent security check at the end of it. Job done I think 
This is the second response I have received from you personally which is, quite frankly, obnoxious given that my post was based on my own experiences and very reasonably worded. Treat any airline/ground personnel like this including security then you will rightly reap what you sow at any point of your travel experience
I said the system wasn't perfect and it isn't......niether are you. When you have finished polishing your halo apply to Mc Donalds.....I believe they are hiring........
Xeque I don't know. I wouldn't say they are useless but that is my opinion. Have we had a major incident in the UK recently? Glasgow springs to mind but the bad guy didn't clear security but crashed through the front of the terminal.
I only know what I have experienced which is what my post was based on. I also saw the footage I quoted which is a valid point and thank you for acknowledging.
This is the second response I have received from you personally which is, quite frankly, obnoxious given that my post was based on my own experiences and very reasonably worded. Treat any airline/ground personnel like this including security then you will rightly reap what you sow at any point of your travel experience
I said the system wasn't perfect and it isn't......niether are you. When you have finished polishing your halo apply to Mc Donalds.....I believe they are hiring........
Xeque I don't know. I wouldn't say they are useless but that is my opinion. Have we had a major incident in the UK recently? Glasgow springs to mind but the bad guy didn't clear security but crashed through the front of the terminal.
I only know what I have experienced which is what my post was based on. I also saw the footage I quoted which is a valid point and thank you for acknowledging.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: not a million miles from old BKK
Posts: 494
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lowcostdolly
Have we had an airborne security threat that originated from an Asian airport recently?
You see? Proper organization, correctly recruited and trained staff, a courteous attitude to the most important people (i.e. the passengers) and the system seems to work - from my perspective anyway.
You see? Proper organization, correctly recruited and trained staff, a courteous attitude to the most important people (i.e. the passengers) and the system seems to work - from my perspective anyway.
Guest
Posts: n/a
lowcostdolly
I am not criticising your comments at all, as you pass on your experience and your feelings about that experience.
However, do you live in the UK? (never assume.)
Quite a number of posters on this forum are expats and one of the reasons we are often critical of the UK is that we are not used to the, frankly appalling, way things are done in some UK airports and security in particular.
Recently I was stopped at Frankfurt for a spot check and the screener asked me what I do for a living as he was doing the search. He was really interested and made me feel that I was dealing with a fellow human.
In France last week, the same thing happened, the lady was not so friendly, but was totally professionally and polite/considerate, asking if I would rather she spoke English as she could hear from my accent that I was Anglophone.
Then you come to the UK. Not all screeners let the side down, some are pleasant and kind individuals, but a lot of them are surly or rude. I have seen them treat older people like idiots, when a sense of compassion would have mandated extra TLC.
I accept that you encounter this every day and are hardened to it, whereas some of us are not and it makes up mad, not just on a personal treatment level (and I know the ropes, so rarely have any interaction with the screeners), but from seeing people who hold the same citizenship behaving in a way that does not reflect the core British values that I was raised to respect.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am not suggesting that naturalized, first, second or third generation Brits are the problem, in fact they are often kind, polite and helpful - many of the worst screeners are depressingly white, born and bred in the UK.
I am not criticising your comments at all, as you pass on your experience and your feelings about that experience.
However, do you live in the UK? (never assume.)
Quite a number of posters on this forum are expats and one of the reasons we are often critical of the UK is that we are not used to the, frankly appalling, way things are done in some UK airports and security in particular.
Recently I was stopped at Frankfurt for a spot check and the screener asked me what I do for a living as he was doing the search. He was really interested and made me feel that I was dealing with a fellow human.
In France last week, the same thing happened, the lady was not so friendly, but was totally professionally and polite/considerate, asking if I would rather she spoke English as she could hear from my accent that I was Anglophone.
Then you come to the UK. Not all screeners let the side down, some are pleasant and kind individuals, but a lot of them are surly or rude. I have seen them treat older people like idiots, when a sense of compassion would have mandated extra TLC.
I accept that you encounter this every day and are hardened to it, whereas some of us are not and it makes up mad, not just on a personal treatment level (and I know the ropes, so rarely have any interaction with the screeners), but from seeing people who hold the same citizenship behaving in a way that does not reflect the core British values that I was raised to respect.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am not suggesting that naturalized, first, second or third generation Brits are the problem, in fact they are often kind, polite and helpful - many of the worst screeners are depressingly white, born and bred in the UK.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: A whole new world now!!
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Xeque.... no I don't think we have, to answer your question, but with respect I don't think that has anything to do with how they treat individuals in Asia. It has more to do with A) the security threat level from that part of the world (which I don't claim to be fully informed on) and B) as you rightly highlighted their vigilent procedures.
F3G highlighted in a recent thread/post the cultural differences in how airline personnel treat pax from different parts of the world......I guess that would apply to security personel as well?
I'm not excusing the way some of you peeps feel you have been treated by security personnel but just to clarify the "yellow teeshirt/sweatshirt brigade AKA gate lice etc" are not security or are they officially designated pre screeners. They dish out info on all things airport which include the liquid regulations. Listen to them or not it is the pax choice.
Some of these people are no more than children doing an adults job and therefore on a power trip......guess that it was was experienced in the North Terminal and started this thread ??
All I can say that as crew and SLF I have only ever experienced vigilence from BAA. Yes sometimes the system leaves much to be desired on a human/organisational level but if I am as safe as I can be on boarding given the current climate......
F3G yes I do live in the UK......LGW is my base but at times I use other airports.
F3G highlighted in a recent thread/post the cultural differences in how airline personnel treat pax from different parts of the world......I guess that would apply to security personel as well?
I'm not excusing the way some of you peeps feel you have been treated by security personnel but just to clarify the "yellow teeshirt/sweatshirt brigade AKA gate lice etc" are not security or are they officially designated pre screeners. They dish out info on all things airport which include the liquid regulations. Listen to them or not it is the pax choice.
Some of these people are no more than children doing an adults job and therefore on a power trip......guess that it was was experienced in the North Terminal and started this thread ??
All I can say that as crew and SLF I have only ever experienced vigilence from BAA. Yes sometimes the system leaves much to be desired on a human/organisational level but if I am as safe as I can be on boarding given the current climate......
F3G yes I do live in the UK......LGW is my base but at times I use other airports.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: On the flightpath
Age: 61
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A good employee in any industry is one who has been well trained. A key part of training is having an understanding of how things are done elsewhere. Unfortunately, when budgets are tight, training is sometimes accorded less priority.
Ideally, the security screeners at LGW and some other UK airports would benefit from, say, a 10-day secondment at another major world airport, shadowing counterparts there. They would return with a fresh view and understanding of the processes, as well as a bit of an insight into what their customers will have experienced at the start of the other end of their journeys.
Sadly, this is unlikely to happen. But, were it to, it might help.
Ideally, the security screeners at LGW and some other UK airports would benefit from, say, a 10-day secondment at another major world airport, shadowing counterparts there. They would return with a fresh view and understanding of the processes, as well as a bit of an insight into what their customers will have experienced at the start of the other end of their journeys.
Sadly, this is unlikely to happen. But, were it to, it might help.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: A whole new world now!!
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I went through a certain european airport (not UK). I brought a 330ml bottle of water from my hotel room to keep me going to the airport. Put it in the bottle bit of my bag when it was half drunk and then forgot about it. The bottle bit is on the outside of my bag.Like all good SLF I pulled out my seperate plastic bag and placed it seperatly on the belt.......still completely forgetting to bin the bottle. How dizzy am I?
Bag was then screened and pulled for a random search. The officer completly missed my bottle which was right under his nose!!
I'm not sure that is the sort of "fresh view and understanding of the proccesses" that should be brought back to UK. However the officer was charming to me so all is well..... even when I handed him the bottle which I had then noticed
Do agree with you tho constant flyer. We can all learn things from each other sometimes.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Someplace where the water smells
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lowcostdolly
I did exactly the same as you just described above going through LGW security as crew about a week ago. I still had my half drunk 1.5L bottle of “Highland Spring” crew water in my flight bag from the day before, I completely forgot it was there. My bag goes though the scanner and comes out the other side completely untouched, where I get dressed again and move to one side to wait for the rest of the crew.
At which point I can see one of our CC members getting a bit of a grilling because one of the containers for a liquid she has didn’t physically say “100ml” on it. In reality, it was a lot less than a 100ml container, but because 100ml was not wrote on the side of the container, the staff there claimed they could not be sure to it being less than 100ml. The fact that it was half the size of the containers that she had which did have 100ml wrote on it meant nothing. So, she loses the liquid. She was newish to the airline, only having started half way through our summer season and our airline was the first airline she had worked for, and she had tried to do everything right to get liquids threw security. I felt quit sorry for her to be honest.
Then we get to the aircraft, I go to get out my headset from my bag, and to my surprise I realise iv still got my crew water in from yesterday!!
Words failed both the skipper and I!
From my point of view, as both crew and SLF, its the inconsistency when passing through security that is the problem.
I did exactly the same as you just described above going through LGW security as crew about a week ago. I still had my half drunk 1.5L bottle of “Highland Spring” crew water in my flight bag from the day before, I completely forgot it was there. My bag goes though the scanner and comes out the other side completely untouched, where I get dressed again and move to one side to wait for the rest of the crew.
At which point I can see one of our CC members getting a bit of a grilling because one of the containers for a liquid she has didn’t physically say “100ml” on it. In reality, it was a lot less than a 100ml container, but because 100ml was not wrote on the side of the container, the staff there claimed they could not be sure to it being less than 100ml. The fact that it was half the size of the containers that she had which did have 100ml wrote on it meant nothing. So, she loses the liquid. She was newish to the airline, only having started half way through our summer season and our airline was the first airline she had worked for, and she had tried to do everything right to get liquids threw security. I felt quit sorry for her to be honest.
Then we get to the aircraft, I go to get out my headset from my bag, and to my surprise I realise iv still got my crew water in from yesterday!!
Words failed both the skipper and I!
From my point of view, as both crew and SLF, its the inconsistency when passing through security that is the problem.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I'm not sure that is the sort of "fresh view and understanding of the proccesses" that should be brought back to UK. However the officer was charming to me so all is well....
- penkife
- water (several times)
- aftershave
- suncream in pouch
- contact lens fluid
If you are trying to argue that UK security is mean, but totally thorough, then it doesn't wash.
What does stack up is that it is the intention, not the possession of these items that determines the threat.
Danny has argued for profiling several times in the past; I support his argument and would feel much safer if we were less reliant on technology and more on highly trained security personnel using questioning skills.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Confoederatio Helvetica
Age: 69
Posts: 2,847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not a variation on the theme?
In some ways you can say this insanity is working, we haven't had a successful black-hat event for a long time. But is this because of the security, or in spite of it?
Why don't we screen all passengers (shoes on, liquids and lap-tops in the bag, no restrictions) but do a extensive search (pat down, visual inspection of bag) of 5 or 10%.
If I was a black-hat, I wouldn't risk a 1 in 10, or 1 in 20 chance of getting caught.
Ah, if wishes were horses, ....
Why don't we screen all passengers (shoes on, liquids and lap-tops in the bag, no restrictions) but do a extensive search (pat down, visual inspection of bag) of 5 or 10%.
If I was a black-hat, I wouldn't risk a 1 in 10, or 1 in 20 chance of getting caught.
Ah, if wishes were horses, ....
Paxing All Over The World
Skipness
Just to be contrary (Wot me?) ... I would suggest that BAA do NOT @rse it up but get it RIGHT every time! Right, that is, for their shareholders to spend minimal amounts of money. The fact that they are killing the golden goose is not visible to them. The short terminism was in BAA before it was privatised and it will not change.
When a govt department, they followed govt diktat, now they follow shareholder diktat and the customer has never featured for them in anything other than PoerPoint presentations.
That's Running an Airport 1.01 and BAA can't do it. It's not rocket science but somehow our lot arse it up every time.
When a govt department, they followed govt diktat, now they follow shareholder diktat and the customer has never featured for them in anything other than PoerPoint presentations.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: A whole new world now!!
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stue - I couldn't agree more!! The only thing that is consistent within the staff Channels is the inconsistency . One day my 20mls aprox of used hand gel is explosive because it contains traces of something the next day it's fine. My regulation blunt ended scissors as are classed as a lethal weapon requiring supervisor attendance to confiscate one day but the next day they are "tools of the trade" and let through......I could go on.
I personally have never experienced that in the SLF channels where everything has been scrutinised when searched to the minutest detail in the UK/USA post 9/11. I've also been asked the appropriate questions in a polite way. I'm afraid I can't say the same for my experiences re thouroughness in other european countries/the African continent but they have been equally, if not more, polite. I'm not in any way racist these are just my own experiences, others I'm sure will have different.
F3G Good morning Did I say security in the UK was "mean"? Think you will find the opposite. Everyone else on this thread thinks they are mean!!
Err.... a penknife
!! Shame on you as a frequent flyer you should know you have to read the large notices at check in re dangerous goods to jog your memory . Still shouldn't have cleared security though.
I think what started out as a bit of a rant has turned into a really interesting thread which affects/concerns all of us in different ways. It's a shame nobody from security is reading it/responding with their take on things.
. One day my 20mls aprox of used hand gel is explosive because it contains traces of something the next day it's fine. My regulation blunt ended scissors as are classed as a lethal weapon requiring supervisor attendance to confiscate one day but the next day they are "tools of the trade" and let through......I could go on.I personally have never experienced that in the SLF channels where everything has been scrutinised when searched to the minutest detail in the UK/USA post 9/11. I've also been asked the appropriate questions in a polite way. I'm afraid I can't say the same for my experiences re thouroughness in other european countries/the African continent but they have been equally, if not more, polite. I'm not in any way racist these are just my own experiences, others I'm sure will have different.
F3G Good morning
Did I say security in the UK was "mean"? Think you will find the opposite. Everyone else on this thread thinks they are mean!!Err.... a penknife
!! Shame on you as a frequent flyer you should know you have to read the large notices at check in re dangerous goods to jog your memory . Still shouldn't have cleared security though.I think what started out as a bit of a rant has turned into a really interesting thread which affects/concerns all of us in different ways. It's a shame nobody from security is reading it/responding with their take on things.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A consistant theme
I can only agree with the thought we are largely responsible for our own current predicament. We "live" in a society of our own making where the design of many jobs is subjugated to the interests of the maximisation of profit. A butchers hook for training or the persuance of professional pride and conduct.
No matter what level in the organisation be it an Airport, A Bank or a Government Dept. Its muddle through or go and S*d off .
Security, a vital process in the conveyance of travelling pax. What do we get ? Barriers ! look good for the "Clear and persistant threat brigade" - The process of "booking in" formed a natural barrier both physical and psycological - What have we got ? A bunch of often underpayed individuals secured at minimum cost by a third party to monitor agrivated pax through cramped terminals not designed for this mode of mass screening. This effort has made the process of travel less attractive for people as a whole. Hence the postings here. Its in the interests of those in power to "keep the kettle boiling" - Thank Bin Laden (His Talibs and he CIA), Bush, Blair and Chaney et Al - PS we did not elect "Brown" - All Hail Democracy and good day to one and all.
CAT III
No matter what level in the organisation be it an Airport, A Bank or a Government Dept. Its muddle through or go and S*d off .
Security, a vital process in the conveyance of travelling pax. What do we get ? Barriers ! look good for the "Clear and persistant threat brigade" - The process of "booking in" formed a natural barrier both physical and psycological - What have we got ? A bunch of often underpayed individuals secured at minimum cost by a third party to monitor agrivated pax through cramped terminals not designed for this mode of mass screening. This effort has made the process of travel less attractive for people as a whole. Hence the postings here. Its in the interests of those in power to "keep the kettle boiling" - Thank Bin Laden (His Talibs and he CIA), Bush, Blair and Chaney et Al - PS we did not elect "Brown" - All Hail Democracy and good day to one and all.
CAT III
Last edited by Guest 112233; 12th Oct 2009 at 12:27. Reason: An exhaustive list of idiots req.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Err.... a penknife !! Shame on you as a frequent flyer you should know you have to read the large notices at check in re dangerous goods to jog your memory .
And therein lies the problem. The security focuses on objects and these are only a threat when used by people with bad intentions.