Advice for large passengers
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e) I tend to just put up the armrest. One airline I travelled on (a Delta subsidiary?) just made everyone leave them up on the ancient 757 as not only was seat pitch extremely uncomfortable, seat width was a joke. I wish more airlines had this policy, particularly in cattle class.
I once saw someone flying who was so fat he was bound to overflow into the next seat.
If this occurs to me, am I within my rights to insist that one of us is moved to an alternate seat? I have strong H&S concerns about getting out if stuck next to someone who is extremely fat.
If this occurs to me, am I within my rights to insist that one of us is moved to an alternate seat? I have strong H&S concerns about getting out if stuck next to someone who is extremely fat.
Fatties should pay for two seats or walk!!!!!
Well the basic Boeing standard jet fuselage (707/727/737/757) has been exactly the same width, and always fitted out for 6-across, for the last 50 years since it was introduced. And the more recent Airbus fuselage is even wider. So it is difficult to blame this on aircraft design changes as a number above do.
Seat pitch is another matter but that impacts on tall/long legs, not on fatness.
Surely the cure to oversize pax impinging on other pax's seatspace is to put all the largest pax together in the same row where they can buffer up against each other. Then no one can complain. For weight and balance reasons this row will have to be towards the CofG.
Seat pitch is another matter but that impacts on tall/long legs, not on fatness.
Surely the cure to oversize pax impinging on other pax's seatspace is to put all the largest pax together in the same row where they can buffer up against each other. Then no one can complain. For weight and balance reasons this row will have to be towards the CofG.
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(on putting the armrest up)
I never do it when I am sitting next to a poor sod stuck in the middle seat. Not because I will flow into their space -- which I don't - my weight is all up front, not side to side.
I want "my" room as much as they want "their" room. I don't want their wallet, iPod or keys sticking into me just as they don't want my legs splaying out to their natural pose (hint, ladies - men don't sit with their legs together). But when there's no one there, why not be comfortable?
The economy seat width is 17-18" on most planes (17" on old 737's, 18" on modern A320's and 777's). Look at your trousers. Anyone wearing size 34 trousers or less can sit more or less comfortably in a 17" width seat.
Everyone else cannot - the seat and body will intersect. Even my relatively short (175 cm) fitness freak brother wears size 34 trousers. He has a BMI in the low 20's (at the lower end of the supposedly "healthy" weight range).
The median BMI of US adults is 27, which means most folks are somewhat overweight and thus do not fit seats comfortably. In my experience of twice weekly or more frequent flights, no one besides young kids and small women with no hips can sit within seat bounds. The seats are simply too narrow for modern, healthy humans, let alone fat dudes like myself.
Andrew
I want "my" room as much as they want "their" room. I don't want their wallet, iPod or keys sticking into me just as they don't want my legs splaying out to their natural pose (hint, ladies - men don't sit with their legs together). But when there's no one there, why not be comfortable?
The economy seat width is 17-18" on most planes (17" on old 737's, 18" on modern A320's and 777's). Look at your trousers. Anyone wearing size 34 trousers or less can sit more or less comfortably in a 17" width seat.
Everyone else cannot - the seat and body will intersect. Even my relatively short (175 cm) fitness freak brother wears size 34 trousers. He has a BMI in the low 20's (at the lower end of the supposedly "healthy" weight range).
The median BMI of US adults is 27, which means most folks are somewhat overweight and thus do not fit seats comfortably. In my experience of twice weekly or more frequent flights, no one besides young kids and small women with no hips can sit within seat bounds. The seats are simply too narrow for modern, healthy humans, let alone fat dudes like myself.
Andrew
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I'm losing weight to have a family and be around when they grow up. I know the impact of being the weight I am. I don't need your (or anyone else's) toxic negativity to understand how my metabolism and poor choices over the 16 years it's taken me to gain 45 kg of unnecessary weight.
That is, until you make it my problem. When obese people intrude into what I have every right to expect is my space, their right to gorge themselves on cheap, greasy, mass-produced cheeseburgers and voraciously mopping up any dropped lardy goo from the cardboard box with salty french fries has to be called into question, don't you think?
BOFH
BOFH
No matter how much you might think we all eat lardy goo from the bottom of cardboard boxes and eat the little bits of cheese stuck to the cheeseburger wrappers, it's simply not the case. For me, my weight gain is the result of eating one or two bad things *per week*. I'm sure everyone here has had one more taco than truly necessary. Gaining weight just requires a few bad choices every week, and you'll be like me.
Getting it off again requires more than just making a few good choices every week. It requires every meal, every snack and every drink to be the best choice (or at least not too bad). It requires sincere effort at the gym and to walk as much as possible every day. It requires not being given incredibly bad advice (e.g. my first failed diet, one of many, Weight Watchers used to be a high GI, constrictive diet suitable only for women. They don't do that any more, but it HURT me. I gained nearly half my excess weight after giving up at WW as it's simply the wrong advice). It requires support from friends and family, and other folks willing to put in the hard yards.
Losing weight does not require toxic oafish boors. Keep your opinions to yourself if you have nothing positive to add.
Andrew
Bludger extraordinaire
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vanderaj
Just how positive do you want me to get? Did it escape your attention that your right to do what you want was upheld by me? In what way, shape or form must I keep my opinions to myself if I am not agreeing with you? Well, that'd make for interesting discussions, wouldn't it?
Poster1: I think <insert postulate>
Poster2: Me too
Poster3: You're both right
Why else did you weigh (heh) in here in the first place, other than to make your case? Isn't anyone else allowed a turn?
Why do you feel you so weak that you need legal protection? What misfortune have you borne, short of shying away from the salad bar? All you have come up with, apropos blaming yourself, is 'bad choices'. The rest is metabolism this, Weight Watchers that, eating on the road, support from your family, 'other folks' (sic) willing to put in the hard yards. Why are you not mature enough to accept that it was you - not me, not WW, not George Z Bush - who did this to you?
I reiterate; I do not have a problem with the way you choose to live. I am not 'picking on' you for being fat. I think that it's a very positive thing that you're endeavouring to reduce your weight. However, I am remonstrating with you for your lack of consideration to others when flying and your fumbling efforts at justifying your position when doing so.
Let's face it, you're not exactly getting onto the debating team with:
As WHBM pointed out, we normals are not shrinking the aircraft on you behind your back. Promise.
Nice straw man, what's his name? If a fellow passenger is rude enough to have something extraneous sticking into you, you simply tell him to remove it. If it's an endogenous roll of lard, that's a little more difficult - unless you can truss him up like a turkey with string.
The only thing keeping this thread vaguely on topic is that the average air traveller's worst fears are being confirmed. There are lipid-rich people who feel no shame at making our next flight a nightmare of contortion. And it's all our fault.
BOFH
Keep your opinions to yourself if you have nothing positive to add.
It is your right to eat as much as you want, and to have it any other way would be an abhorrent intrusion into your life. You seem sentient enough
Poster1: I think <insert postulate>
Poster2: Me too
Poster3: You're both right
Why else did you weigh (heh) in here in the first place, other than to make your case? Isn't anyone else allowed a turn?
only class of folk left who have no legal protection
I reiterate; I do not have a problem with the way you choose to live. I am not 'picking on' you for being fat. I think that it's a very positive thing that you're endeavouring to reduce your weight. However, I am remonstrating with you for your lack of consideration to others when flying and your fumbling efforts at justifying your position when doing so.
Let's face it, you're not exactly getting onto the debating team with:
no one besides young kids and small women with no hips can sit within seat bounds
I don't want their wallet, iPod or keys sticking into me
The only thing keeping this thread vaguely on topic is that the average air traveller's worst fears are being confirmed. There are lipid-rich people who feel no shame at making our next flight a nightmare of contortion. And it's all our fault.
BOFH
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What a dreadful attitude......I am a large guy..I have no trouble remaining within the confines of my seat..I do not smell....I do not sweat...and I am disgusted by the attitudes shown on this board. If a thread were started on Jews/Blacks/Gays/disabled and attitudes like those demonstrated here were prevalent the moderator would close it down ...why are those of us who are not within the "normal" range treated with such utter contempt. I am disgusted at the way this thread has been allowed to progress....NAZI's the bloody lot of you.
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I too find it extremely difficult to conduct discussion on this topic without either humour or derogatory comments and getting a few people's back's up in the process. Nevertheless, it is a very important subject and one that has affected all of us at one time or another.
As WHBM rightly points out, the standard Boeing fuselage has not changed in 50 years, while clearly, rightly or wrongly, the average human has. It is most obvious in the US, Africa and Europe, but even here in Asia, the average person is quickly getting noticeably larger. Ten years ago, at 178cm, I could see clear over the heads of a crowd in Bangkok. Now it is common to find Thais and other Asians of similar and larger size than me, and that includes their girth. Within the next Asian generation (another 10 years or so), changing diets and lifestyles will see Asia join the US, Europe and Africa in the size stakes and with it, have the same issues with airline seats.
It is time we gave this problem the attention it needs.
Bangkokeasy (BMI 28.4)
(Edited to correct BMI)
As WHBM rightly points out, the standard Boeing fuselage has not changed in 50 years, while clearly, rightly or wrongly, the average human has. It is most obvious in the US, Africa and Europe, but even here in Asia, the average person is quickly getting noticeably larger. Ten years ago, at 178cm, I could see clear over the heads of a crowd in Bangkok. Now it is common to find Thais and other Asians of similar and larger size than me, and that includes their girth. Within the next Asian generation (another 10 years or so), changing diets and lifestyles will see Asia join the US, Europe and Africa in the size stakes and with it, have the same issues with airline seats.
It is time we gave this problem the attention it needs.
Bangkokeasy (BMI 28.4)
(Edited to correct BMI)
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On the eating in public, I don't enjoy it either, though ofr opposite reasons. I'm sick of getting the looks and the comments along the lines of "why does he bother, he'll only throw it up" (truly a rather rude older lady said this to me once..) or getting that ' 'oh look, that kid obvously has an eating disorder.." crap as well.
And I also think that airline seats suck, as I have fairly broad shoulders, so even though i have a 32 size waist and can fit my lower part into the seat, it's still damn uncomfortable if you are sitting next to someone else. The seats do need to get bigger, as the average person is getting taller and bigger, not so much in fattiness but in general mass, if that makes sense.
And I also think that airline seats suck, as I have fairly broad shoulders, so even though i have a 32 size waist and can fit my lower part into the seat, it's still damn uncomfortable if you are sitting next to someone else. The seats do need to get bigger, as the average person is getting taller and bigger, not so much in fattiness but in general mass, if that makes sense.
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Wow
BOFH, your logic is impeccable, but you and your co-believers here really are oafish toxic boors. I'm impressed that you've managed to embarrass yourself so thoroughly. I wonder if you would have the balls to say any of this stuff if it wasn't an anonymous forum. And no, I'm not obese - I just think that there's a place for compassion in this world; a place that strict logic may not always lead you.
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And I also think that airline seats suck, as I have fairly broad shoulders, so even though i have a 32 size waist and can fit my lower part into the seat, it's still damn uncomfortable if you are sitting next to someone else. The seats do need to get bigger, as the average person is getting taller and bigger, not so much in fattiness but in general mass, if that makes sense.
Larger seats with more space ALREADY EXIST. They are the premium seats. (PE, Club and First)
Fewer seats at the back mean more expense - for everyone. Why do you expect those who dont require the space to subsidise those who do?.
Is legislation to be enacted to force the so called 'lo-cost' airlines to become more expensive by having fewer seats to suit the needs of a minority (or will you promise never to fly a lo cost airline)?
If you need more space - pay for it. If you cant fit into the space you've paid for, then you need more space and that costs.
Last edited by manintheback; 1st Dec 2006 at 14:17.
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It's a little depressing how this thread has evolved from a useful start into trench warfare.
There is clearly an issue here that would benefit from discussion: That issue relates to passengers of size within an aviation context.
May I encourage you, no matter where you stand on this, to step back for a moment, and then post in as considered and sensitive manner as you can. I don't like closing threads, but if this degenerates into stone throwing, it may prove necessary.
Now over to you...
There is clearly an issue here that would benefit from discussion: That issue relates to passengers of size within an aviation context.
May I encourage you, no matter where you stand on this, to step back for a moment, and then post in as considered and sensitive manner as you can. I don't like closing threads, but if this degenerates into stone throwing, it may prove necessary.
Now over to you...
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Fatties vs skinnies
Mr Moderator,
Thank you for stepping in. I apologise if my comments were seen as "stone-throwing" - seemed more like blitzkrieg than trench warfare to me, with the skinny meanies on the rampage. But I guess those on the end of all that "fat people smell, eat too many chips, rolls of lard" nonsense can do without my help, and the superfluous offensiveness of their attackers' approach is self evident. I'm back off to the tech log, and other interesing forums, with a cup of tea and a whole packet of chocolate biscuits. I intend to eat every one
Thank you for stepping in. I apologise if my comments were seen as "stone-throwing" - seemed more like blitzkrieg than trench warfare to me, with the skinny meanies on the rampage. But I guess those on the end of all that "fat people smell, eat too many chips, rolls of lard" nonsense can do without my help, and the superfluous offensiveness of their attackers' approach is self evident. I'm back off to the tech log, and other interesing forums, with a cup of tea and a whole packet of chocolate biscuits. I intend to eat every one
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Tightslot - thank you!
I am 180 cm tall, apparently the average height of an Australian male. However, the kids coming up behind me (only 10 years younger, mind) are already head and shoulders taller than me, and I'd say once my parents' generation kick the bucket, I will be considered short.
The loco airlines will have a problem in less than 10 years. These taller passengers cannot fit in the standard loco seat pitch today. Soon enough they will form a core part of the airline business regardless of how much the locos might wish otherwise. Locos do not have a premium economy (which is the class I am taking to the USA next week for my ample girth and comfort) let alone J or C class seats. In Australia, Jet* have taken over from Qantas on most holiday and regional destinations, such as Townsville and Newcastle, and VB (the only other major airline) is a loco too. So us fat and taller folks have *nowhere* to go.
Airlines like Pacific Airlines have larger customers as the norm - they have larger seats. Sooner or later, locos will have to do the same or face declining market share. For example, I will not be traveling South West now that I know that they will charge me randomly for a second seat, whether I need one or not. As I travel frequently (far more frequently than I actually like), SW have cut their own throat. Which is good news for the South West shareholders!
Andrew
I am 180 cm tall, apparently the average height of an Australian male. However, the kids coming up behind me (only 10 years younger, mind) are already head and shoulders taller than me, and I'd say once my parents' generation kick the bucket, I will be considered short.
The loco airlines will have a problem in less than 10 years. These taller passengers cannot fit in the standard loco seat pitch today. Soon enough they will form a core part of the airline business regardless of how much the locos might wish otherwise. Locos do not have a premium economy (which is the class I am taking to the USA next week for my ample girth and comfort) let alone J or C class seats. In Australia, Jet* have taken over from Qantas on most holiday and regional destinations, such as Townsville and Newcastle, and VB (the only other major airline) is a loco too. So us fat and taller folks have *nowhere* to go.
Airlines like Pacific Airlines have larger customers as the norm - they have larger seats. Sooner or later, locos will have to do the same or face declining market share. For example, I will not be traveling South West now that I know that they will charge me randomly for a second seat, whether I need one or not. As I travel frequently (far more frequently than I actually like), SW have cut their own throat. Which is good news for the South West shareholders!
Andrew
Last edited by vanderaj; 2nd Dec 2006 at 10:23. Reason: Minor edits
Well I am 6'0" and have done several business trips in Y London to Australia and did not find a problem.
A former girlfriend
5'3" and skinny did LAX to London on a BA 747 and came out whining about "sardine class" and other such comments. I think it is very much an attitude issue.
A former girlfriend
5'3" and skinny did LAX to London on a BA 747 and came out whining about "sardine class" and other such comments. I think it is very much an attitude issue.
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The modern airline industry is irreversibly changing from flag carriers to low cost airlines, and in the process removing choice from those like myself who can afford to pay for the room they need.
In Australia, despite my heavy patronage (irony, eh?), Qantas (on which I am a Gold FF and dang near Platinum) has withdrawn their two class domestic flights basically everywhere in favor of CityFlyer and Jet*, their loco arm.
So no matter how much I am willing to pay, I and many others simply cannot buy the room we need. I don't need seat pitch much beyond 30" between seats as I'm not that tall, but on some airlines, I don't even get that now. And cos I carry all my weight forward, it's tricky for me to get the tray down or use a laptop. I acknowledge that I'm fat, so I want the extra pitch to be comfortable doing things like everyone else.
10 years from now, folks taller than me will simply always associate airflight with extreme discomfort. I hope to be skinny by then, but the problem remains: humans are changing, and the seats have not. In many cases, things are worse in the name of economical cheap flights. I'm not against cheap flights as businesses deserve to make a reasonable profit, but I am against unreasonable seat sizes for the average human, and the lack of choice of wider / more seat pitch for those like me who are willing to pay that bit more for my comfort and that of other folks.
Andrew
I flew back Business from Malaysia a few years ago. As passengers were still boarding a very large lady came through into Club Class followed by two harased CC. She pointed to some empty seats and started demanding that she be given one of them. Basically, she stated that she was too fat for an economy seat, especially as it was a 14 hour flight to London. Therefore, she announced, it was the Airlines responsibility to upgrade her. Luckily, they refused.
I was annoyed that this rather nasty individual thought it her God given right to be treated as a special case due to her size. She purchased an economy ticket and that is where she should sit. She tried to make it the airlines problem and even tried to intimidate the CC with threats of 'letters to management'. Her size is her business and her responsibility.
I get annoyed when I see morbidly obese people shoe horning themselves into seats, especially ones near me because of the safety implications in an Emergency.
I for one, hope we do not address this problem by giving them the legal right to sue if we dare to mention their excess girth and the problems it causes.
I was annoyed that this rather nasty individual thought it her God given right to be treated as a special case due to her size. She purchased an economy ticket and that is where she should sit. She tried to make it the airlines problem and even tried to intimidate the CC with threats of 'letters to management'. Her size is her business and her responsibility.
I get annoyed when I see morbidly obese people shoe horning themselves into seats, especially ones near me because of the safety implications in an Emergency.
I for one, hope we do not address this problem by giving them the legal right to sue if we dare to mention their excess girth and the problems it causes.
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I get annoyed when I see morbidly obese people shoe horning themselves into seats
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I have to say that if I ever was on a flight, and the pax next to me wanted to raise the armrest as they were too big for the seat, I would immediately seek to move seats, or get off the plane. There are two reasons for this; Firstly I want to be able to get out of my row of seats in an emergency, and secondly, I paid for a whole seat, not a part of a seat.
I believe Southwest has a useful policy regarding this whereby larger people can purchase two adjacent seats. This is a good short term solution to a difficult problem, as it avoids any bad feeling with other pax, and means the person of larger girth does not find themselves in a 'no-win' situation with other pax. Maybe the likes of Ryanair or Ezy and other airlines need to wise up to this.
Long term, the airlines do need to address this issue, as people are just getting bigger. Fact.
Just out of curiosity (as I'll be flying in a middle seat on Jet blue shortly on a long flight), can someoen tell me, how much wider the A320 cabin is over say a 737 400 etc..
I believe Southwest has a useful policy regarding this whereby larger people can purchase two adjacent seats. This is a good short term solution to a difficult problem, as it avoids any bad feeling with other pax, and means the person of larger girth does not find themselves in a 'no-win' situation with other pax. Maybe the likes of Ryanair or Ezy and other airlines need to wise up to this.
Long term, the airlines do need to address this issue, as people are just getting bigger. Fact.
Just out of curiosity (as I'll be flying in a middle seat on Jet blue shortly on a long flight), can someoen tell me, how much wider the A320 cabin is over say a 737 400 etc..