Diabetic man forced off BA flight
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As an insulin-dependent diabetic in the airline industry, I agree with LTNman. My insulin needles are 0.6mm diameter and 6mm long. I have a fountain pen with a fine nib in my kit which would cause more damage. The crew may have over-reacted but equally, may have been bound by their crew operations manual.
Rainboe, you are either mis-informed or being sarcastic.
"...when all around you are having nailclippers and mini-screwdrivers confiscated at security": Are these nailclippers and mini-screwdrivers required to keep you alive?? Blood monitoring and insulin injections are, and, incidentally, would prevent that diabetic passenger from becoming a possible medical emergency during the flight requiring a likely inflight diversion.
"...not exactly onerous.": How would you feel if you had a chronic condition, had to try and get an appointment with your doctor (not exactly an easy task, sometimes), had to get a doctor's letter - not a 'doctor's note' which is required for self-certification and SSP purposes and has nothing to do with this subject - had to pay the (up to) £25.00 that they demand for this "service"/requirement and then have to present it to check-in, security and flight crew whenever asked. Would this not make you feel slightly annoyed. And the galling thing is, when you pass through some airport security stations (LHR T2 and T1 in my recent experience), they do not spot the needles on the scanners and, when you volunteer that your diabetic kit may need checking, they check nothing and point out to you that this is not necessary.
Diabetics are made to feel consistently sub-human by an industry that is increasingly failing it's own low standards of duty of care towards passengers. I would propose to you that this passenger may have had his human rights infringed. I would also ask; was the passenger ever advised by BA that he had to satisfy 2 seperate standards of justification for carrying needles/insulin/blood testing kit? BAA Security (who are contracted by BA for terminal security checks) let him pass unhindered without a doctor's letter. The BA crew demanded that he show them a doctor's letter. A case of double standards, methinks...?
Rainboe, you are either mis-informed or being sarcastic.
"...when all around you are having nailclippers and mini-screwdrivers confiscated at security": Are these nailclippers and mini-screwdrivers required to keep you alive?? Blood monitoring and insulin injections are, and, incidentally, would prevent that diabetic passenger from becoming a possible medical emergency during the flight requiring a likely inflight diversion.
"...not exactly onerous.": How would you feel if you had a chronic condition, had to try and get an appointment with your doctor (not exactly an easy task, sometimes), had to get a doctor's letter - not a 'doctor's note' which is required for self-certification and SSP purposes and has nothing to do with this subject - had to pay the (up to) £25.00 that they demand for this "service"/requirement and then have to present it to check-in, security and flight crew whenever asked. Would this not make you feel slightly annoyed. And the galling thing is, when you pass through some airport security stations (LHR T2 and T1 in my recent experience), they do not spot the needles on the scanners and, when you volunteer that your diabetic kit may need checking, they check nothing and point out to you that this is not necessary.
Diabetics are made to feel consistently sub-human by an industry that is increasingly failing it's own low standards of duty of care towards passengers. I would propose to you that this passenger may have had his human rights infringed. I would also ask; was the passenger ever advised by BA that he had to satisfy 2 seperate standards of justification for carrying needles/insulin/blood testing kit? BAA Security (who are contracted by BA for terminal security checks) let him pass unhindered without a doctor's letter. The BA crew demanded that he show them a doctor's letter. A case of double standards, methinks...?
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The rules are there, and it is up to the person when making a booking, especially if they are diabetic, to ensure the conditions of carriage are complied with. Were I to be diabetic, I would arm myself with a Doctors letter kept with the medication in case of such eventuality- it does not time expire! If you have a beef with the fact the rule is there, I am not the one to get angry with!
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Rainboe,
I wasn't actually angry. I was emphasising that you seem to categorise insulin (required for medical reasons) as less important than nailclippers (cosmetic item) and mini-screwdrivers (fixing glasses, perhaps??).
I would allow that the conditions of carriage may not have been read properly and there is plenty of information out there to ensure that this chap cannot allow authorities to put him in this position again.
However, there is inconsistency in the industry. I have travelled on BA flights (long-haul and short-haul) where the cabin crew would seem to have ignored their own company's conditions of carriage and, presumably, S.O.P.'s.. Just to back this up, BA059 LHR-CPT. Declared sharps and insulin verbally and showed my MedicAlert bracelet to check-in, security (who ignored me), gate staff and purser in charge of our cabin. The purser told me that I hadn't orderd a diabetic meal. I said I know, I don't need one. That was the end of her input... She let me carry sharps and needles et al in the cabin with no problems at all. BA572 LHR-MXP. Declared sharps and insulin verbally and showed my MedicAlert bracelet to check-in, security (who ignored me), gate staff and purser in charge of our cabin. This purser asked if I needed any special assistance, answer no, then "was I happy to keep the insulin with me in case it was needed in flight?" (The right way to deal with it, in my opinion.) Answer, yes. So 2 people within the same company dealt with it in 2 completely different, and, according to their conditions of carriage, wrong way!!!!!!!
And neither had, nor was ever asked for, a doctor's letter - by anybody.
Confused...? You would be, if you are a diabetic and fly on "The World's Most Inconsistent Airline"!
I wasn't actually angry. I was emphasising that you seem to categorise insulin (required for medical reasons) as less important than nailclippers (cosmetic item) and mini-screwdrivers (fixing glasses, perhaps??).
I would allow that the conditions of carriage may not have been read properly and there is plenty of information out there to ensure that this chap cannot allow authorities to put him in this position again.
However, there is inconsistency in the industry. I have travelled on BA flights (long-haul and short-haul) where the cabin crew would seem to have ignored their own company's conditions of carriage and, presumably, S.O.P.'s.. Just to back this up, BA059 LHR-CPT. Declared sharps and insulin verbally and showed my MedicAlert bracelet to check-in, security (who ignored me), gate staff and purser in charge of our cabin. The purser told me that I hadn't orderd a diabetic meal. I said I know, I don't need one. That was the end of her input... She let me carry sharps and needles et al in the cabin with no problems at all. BA572 LHR-MXP. Declared sharps and insulin verbally and showed my MedicAlert bracelet to check-in, security (who ignored me), gate staff and purser in charge of our cabin. This purser asked if I needed any special assistance, answer no, then "was I happy to keep the insulin with me in case it was needed in flight?" (The right way to deal with it, in my opinion.) Answer, yes. So 2 people within the same company dealt with it in 2 completely different, and, according to their conditions of carriage, wrong way!!!!!!!
And neither had, nor was ever asked for, a doctor's letter - by anybody.Confused...? You would be, if you are a diabetic and fly on "The World's Most Inconsistent Airline"!
Last edited by Buster66; 13th Mar 2005 at 22:26.
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I am not categorising metal implements of any sort- I am just trying to explain concisely without any sarcasm or other meaning that these days any sharp metallic objects are likely to receive unsympathetic treatment in an aviation environment. To need to take needles away these days, one should always have a letter. As a Captain of an aeroplane, I have had nailclippers, not scissor type but the squeeze together ones, removed from my briefcase washbag! One imagines Ali the Terrorist, bursting onto the flight deck, and spying sticking out of the Captain's bag, a nailclipper! With a whoop of satisfaction, he grabs down and holds them out threatening the pilots with imminent injury as he holds the nail clippers opening and closing like a shark's mouth!
What chance with such logic pervading security these days does a syringe have? It's not the airline, it's security.
What chance with such logic pervading security these days does a syringe have? It's not the airline, it's security.
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That's right. And it's the added "security charge" on tickets for a service the bastards should have been providing in the first place that is the ultimate insult (here in Canada it's $5.61 plus GST per person per leg of flight!)
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I obviously don't know what airport you normally operate from but: Here is part of the BAA's web-site relating to what may not be carried in hand-luggage:
"DO NOT pack the following items in your hand luggage:
Toy/replica guns (metal or plastic)
Catapults
Household cutlery
Knives with blades of any length
Razor blades
Tools
Darts
Scissors
Hypodermic needles (unless required for medical reasons)
Knitting needles
Sporting bats
Billiard, snooker or pool cues
Corkscrews"
Source: http://www.baa.co.uk/main/general/tr...ips_frame.html
We could take this to the nth degree. I do support ypur viewpoint that nailclippers are hardly an immediately threatening weapon. But, the security staff, if you travel from a BAA airport, may have been given guidance that nailclippers constitite either a "blade of any length" or a "razor blade". I don't know for sure, but they may have been thinking that...
I could, if I really wanted to, mention that Hypodermic needles are not permitted in hand luggage unless required for medical reasons. So who is not working with the other, BA or BAA Security??
"DO NOT pack the following items in your hand luggage:
Toy/replica guns (metal or plastic)
Catapults
Household cutlery
Knives with blades of any length
Razor blades
Tools
Darts
Scissors
Hypodermic needles (unless required for medical reasons)
Knitting needles
Sporting bats
Billiard, snooker or pool cues
Corkscrews"
Source: http://www.baa.co.uk/main/general/tr...ips_frame.html
We could take this to the nth degree. I do support ypur viewpoint that nailclippers are hardly an immediately threatening weapon. But, the security staff, if you travel from a BAA airport, may have been given guidance that nailclippers constitite either a "blade of any length" or a "razor blade". I don't know for sure, but they may have been thinking that...
I could, if I really wanted to, mention that Hypodermic needles are not permitted in hand luggage unless required for medical reasons. So who is not working with the other, BA or BAA Security??
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Just about all BA aircraft don't have fridges , and even if they did, for health and safety reasons we would not stow anything from a customer in there - to avoid cross contamination.
You could always ask the crew for a small bag of ice - or go one better and bring a small coolbag from home with a blue freezer block in it to protect your medicine.
You could always ask the crew for a small bag of ice - or go one better and bring a small coolbag from home with a blue freezer block in it to protect your medicine.
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South African Airways do (or at least have cool storage areas) on their B744's. Cabin crew asked me if I would prefer to store my insulin there for the long flight to Cape Town. I took them up on this in order not to take any risks with my medication - see post by "Helli-Gurl" at 13MAR/2125 above.
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So why don’t BA ban fountain pens? If someone held one as a dagger with its sharp polished nib I would feel more threatened than by a plastic needle pen with a needle so short and fine I would struggle to see it. Do BA crew ask passengers to remove their pen tops to make sure that the nib hasn’t been replaced by a needle? Either a fountain pen is a potential weapon or it isn’t. If it isn’t then how can a needle pen be classed as a potential weapon?
Last edited by LTNman; 14th Mar 2005 at 06:43.
"The BA crew were a bunch of idiots."
I'm no fan of BA, but in this case the crew seemed to try and solve the problem. The fault lies with the rules themselves. The needles would have been just as dangerous if he had had a doctor's note, and are far less dangerous than other objects which passengers are permitted to carry.
Rainboe
"It's not the airline, it's security."
i thought it was the airline's rule. He later flew with CX without any problem.
I'm no fan of BA, but in this case the crew seemed to try and solve the problem. The fault lies with the rules themselves. The needles would have been just as dangerous if he had had a doctor's note, and are far less dangerous than other objects which passengers are permitted to carry.
Rainboe
"It's not the airline, it's security."
i thought it was the airline's rule. He later flew with CX without any problem.
Last edited by etrang; 14th Mar 2005 at 06:03.
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Taken from BA website.
Please be advised if you are carrying any of the above items (with the exception of hypodermic needles when proven to have a medical need for it/them) will be asked to place it in their hold baggage/suitcase. If you only have hand baggage then you will be asked to hand over the restricted item for disposal by British Airways.
Note: Tweezers, nail clippers, safety pins and sewing needles up to 2 inches in length are permitted in hand baggage.
Also everybody for information the following,
Virgin Atlantic site...
If you have a medical reason that means you need to inject during the flight you are permitted to carry syringes in the cabin. But you might be asked to produce medical evidence such as a doctor’s letter when you check in or at security screening. The letter should be kept with you at all times.
Easyjet...
The following items are not permitted to be taken into the cabin, and will only be accepted if packed securely in hold baggage...
Hypodermic syringes (unless supported by medical evidence)
Ryanair...
MEDICAL SYRINGES
If for medical reasons, passengers need to inject themselves during the flight (e.g diabetics) they are permitted to carry syringes in the cabin. They will be asked to produce appropriate medical evidence (a doctor’s letter will suffice) when they check in or at security screenings. This should be kept with them at all times.
It's fairly clear you need medical evidence to travel with these airlines, though some airlines it wasn't, I couldn't find info at BMI or Cathay Pacific. Also the TSA don't require written evidence they just need to see the syringes and medication. So it's not the case with all airlines, or at least they don't give any information that they do require medical evidence.
Please be advised if you are carrying any of the above items (with the exception of hypodermic needles when proven to have a medical need for it/them) will be asked to place it in their hold baggage/suitcase. If you only have hand baggage then you will be asked to hand over the restricted item for disposal by British Airways.
Note: Tweezers, nail clippers, safety pins and sewing needles up to 2 inches in length are permitted in hand baggage.
Also everybody for information the following,
Virgin Atlantic site...
If you have a medical reason that means you need to inject during the flight you are permitted to carry syringes in the cabin. But you might be asked to produce medical evidence such as a doctor’s letter when you check in or at security screening. The letter should be kept with you at all times.
Easyjet...
The following items are not permitted to be taken into the cabin, and will only be accepted if packed securely in hold baggage...
Hypodermic syringes (unless supported by medical evidence)
Ryanair...
MEDICAL SYRINGES
If for medical reasons, passengers need to inject themselves during the flight (e.g diabetics) they are permitted to carry syringes in the cabin. They will be asked to produce appropriate medical evidence (a doctor’s letter will suffice) when they check in or at security screenings. This should be kept with them at all times.
It's fairly clear you need medical evidence to travel with these airlines, though some airlines it wasn't, I couldn't find info at BMI or Cathay Pacific. Also the TSA don't require written evidence they just need to see the syringes and medication. So it's not the case with all airlines, or at least they don't give any information that they do require medical evidence.
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Apologies if I have missed something but this talk of fridges is confusing me...
Assuming the PAX was intending to keep the kit in his hand luggage and that he wasn't carrying a portable fridge, (!), then surely the CC could have stowed it for him somewhere safe?
I KNOW the print gives the splurge about Doc's Cert etc but having got to the point in time that they had, surely a little 'nous would have helped.
Assuming the PAX was intending to keep the kit in his hand luggage and that he wasn't carrying a portable fridge, (!), then surely the CC could have stowed it for him somewhere safe?
I KNOW the print gives the splurge about Doc's Cert etc but having got to the point in time that they had, surely a little 'nous would have helped.
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I think the reason BA won't put this stuff in a fridge is because there isn't one that I'm aware of on the aircraft. Also if the items are taken from the passenger and mislaid or another passenger goes into a galley and steals them or the items get damaged and are unusable or other items get contaminated the company and it's staff have put themselves in a difficult position. Without their medication or ability to take it at the right time that passenger could become seriously ill.
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I don't think in this case your comment eal401 is fair to the crew. The rules were clear. There is a process involved in removing a passenger which involves more than just the cabin crew. we don't know exactly how this passenger was treated and neither do you eal401, we just know he didn't have the paperwork required to travel on this flight and was offloaded. I think the big question should be why different airlines traveling in and out of the UK can come up with entirely different policies for the same thing.
Cathay now also provide a system where frequent travellers can register any medical conditions they may have this means they do not have to have clearance each time they travel. Maybe BA and other airlines could look into doing the same. It could be something which the airlines can include in their alliance programmes like they do with exec cards or even as part of that system. I wouldn't have thought it would require much effort.
Cathay now also provide a system where frequent travellers can register any medical conditions they may have this means they do not have to have clearance each time they travel. Maybe BA and other airlines could look into doing the same. It could be something which the airlines can include in their alliance programmes like they do with exec cards or even as part of that system. I wouldn't have thought it would require much effort.
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Alot of posters here have quoted "The rules are the rules" etc. etc. I think you are missing the point.
I for one also wonder what happened to common sense where the crew were concerned? It appears that in this case security dont have a problem with the carriage of a diabetics syringe/Novapen/insulin or whatever. All I can see is that Big Airlines has dropped the ball with their customer relations and gotten itself some bad PR - Again!!
Someone made the point that the passenger involved may have lived with carrying around a Mars Bar and his insulin pen/syringe all his life so didnt think it worthy of comment as it was his normal life. My late mother was a diabetic and I can only endorse this view from experience. If you dont think you are different or have any special needs, you dont search a website to find out these rules do you?
Regards, SD..
I for one also wonder what happened to common sense where the crew were concerned? It appears that in this case security dont have a problem with the carriage of a diabetics syringe/Novapen/insulin or whatever. All I can see is that Big Airlines has dropped the ball with their customer relations and gotten itself some bad PR - Again!!
Someone made the point that the passenger involved may have lived with carrying around a Mars Bar and his insulin pen/syringe all his life so didnt think it worthy of comment as it was his normal life. My late mother was a diabetic and I can only endorse this view from experience. If you dont think you are different or have any special needs, you dont search a website to find out these rules do you?
Regards, SD..
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I understand what you're saying skydriller but others can't know people are diabetic if their diabetes is being managed properly. If they travel regularly diabetics will come into contact with may people who have no experience, knowledge or understanding of diabetes. I for one only know what I've been told to allow me to do my job.
I think this rule of needing a letter is more to make sure people have the syringes for legitimate reasons and not for some illegal substance. Maybe?
If it was for security reasons as has already been pointed out, how do they suddenly become safe because the passengers have a doctors letter.
I still think we need to have a more robust system in place than a note from the doc.
I think this rule of needing a letter is more to make sure people have the syringes for legitimate reasons and not for some illegal substance. Maybe?
If it was for security reasons as has already been pointed out, how do they suddenly become safe because the passengers have a doctors letter.
I still think we need to have a more robust system in place than a note from the doc.
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The airlines introduced this ruling as a result of security concerns and security regulations! You are not allowed to bring sharp objects through security......PERIOD. If some security checks don't locate them, or some airlines are lax and don't attempt to enforce it, that is not reason to abuse those airlines and crews that do. BA even bans metal cutlery- people have to eat steaks with plastic tools.
IF you are diabetic, all you have to do is get a Doctor's Letter to carry needles! For goodness sake, it's not picking on diabetics, it's not for nothing, it's not crews being brutal- it's regulations! Are we going to have another 35 page thread talking this to complete and utter boredom? Get a Bloody Note!
IF you are diabetic, all you have to do is get a Doctor's Letter to carry needles! For goodness sake, it's not picking on diabetics, it's not for nothing, it's not crews being brutal- it's regulations! Are we going to have another 35 page thread talking this to complete and utter boredom? Get a Bloody Note!
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You are not allowed to bring sharp objects through security......PERIOD.
The question is why? Or are CX crew braver than BA?