Diabetic man forced off BA flight
When I was injecting insulin, the packaging had the pharmacists label. Now it might be stretching imagination a little, but if someone is carrying the injection apparatus and the medication, labelled with a pharmacists label, isn't that sufficient? Nobody injects insulin for fun, after all. And the pens have needles so small they cannot be regarded as a weapon!
It would be as easy to forge a doctors letter as a pharmacists label, so any argument on those lines won't wash.
Although we have a lot of talk about security, we all know how much of it is merely window dressing: in the meantime, very few airlines can really afford to p*ss off long haul business passengers. In many cases, p*ss off one passenger and lose a whole load of business from that company - that's just happened to a hotel in Sweden we used to use as a company.
It would be as easy to forge a doctors letter as a pharmacists label, so any argument on those lines won't wash.
Although we have a lot of talk about security, we all know how much of it is merely window dressing: in the meantime, very few airlines can really afford to p*ss off long haul business passengers. In many cases, p*ss off one passenger and lose a whole load of business from that company - that's just happened to a hotel in Sweden we used to use as a company.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if it is so important to travel......get a bloody note!
Jeez- it's not that hard! That's what the regulations say. You can talk the hind leg off a donkey about how beastly it is to be diabetic, how unfair the world is when you are one, but if the regulations say you must have a note.....is it that hard to equip yourself with one for life?
Page 4 here we come~!
Jeez- it's not that hard! That's what the regulations say. You can talk the hind leg off a donkey about how beastly it is to be diabetic, how unfair the world is when you are one, but if the regulations say you must have a note.....is it that hard to equip yourself with one for life?
Page 4 here we come~!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Rainboe, you make your point and with respect to this incident it is hard to argue a good case against the ultimate outcome. However I believe you are very much missing the wider issue which many have with regard the "regulations" and "rules" and the application of them.
It is (IMO) probable that most of the security rules are essentially window dressing and do not make flying any safer. They do, however, very clearly anger a significant number of passengers and airline employees. Do we as rational intellegent adults really have to accept your premise that because the regulations "say so" it must be correct and for a good reason? Yes, in the short term, we have to comply if we wish to travel, but there are many reasons to challenge the rules and regs if they are not effective.
You may remember how easy it was for the Unions to cripple the rail network by an insistance to work to rule. Working and complying to rules and regulations should be a level to aspire to, but the R&R's have to be sound, practical, fit for purpose and enforceable (amongst many other sound requirements).
I would suggest that your comments could be misunderstood as "jobsworth".
It is (IMO) probable that most of the security rules are essentially window dressing and do not make flying any safer. They do, however, very clearly anger a significant number of passengers and airline employees. Do we as rational intellegent adults really have to accept your premise that because the regulations "say so" it must be correct and for a good reason? Yes, in the short term, we have to comply if we wish to travel, but there are many reasons to challenge the rules and regs if they are not effective.
You may remember how easy it was for the Unions to cripple the rail network by an insistance to work to rule. Working and complying to rules and regulations should be a level to aspire to, but the R&R's have to be sound, practical, fit for purpose and enforceable (amongst many other sound requirements).
I would suggest that your comments could be misunderstood as "jobsworth".
Of far more importance is this statement.
If you only have hand baggage then you will be asked to hand over the restricted item for disposal by British Airways.
Now I know what happened to my bags!!!
If you only have hand baggage then you will be asked to hand over the restricted item for disposal by British Airways.
Now I know what happened to my bags!!!
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roghead.........
Who is arguing with you? They have banned even pilots wives from being able to take a flight deck seat. None of us like it....but that's the rules. Fight it till you're blue in the face....that's the rules! I'm not justifying them....them's the rules- can't you understand that?
Watch my lips- I am not justifying them. That's the rules- you wanna travel, follow the rules. In this case, to follow the rules, all you need is a BLOODY DOCTOR'S LETTER! Argue it with the CAA, NTSB, RSPCA for all I care....please, just get a note and argue it with someone else!
It is (IMO) probable that most of the security rules are essentially window dressing and do not make flying any safer.
Do we as rational intellegent adults really have to accept your premise that because the regulations "say so" it must be correct and for a good reason? Yes, in the short term, we have to comply if we wish to travel, but there are many reasons to challenge the rules and regs if they are not effective.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Sorry old son if my reply has got you hot and bothered- your response suggests that you still have a lot of living to do.
Of course
<Watch my lips- I am not justifying them. That's the rules- you wanna travel, follow the rules. In this case, to follow the rules, all you need is a BLOODY DOCTOR'S LETTER! Argue it with the CAA, NTSB, RSPCA for all I care....please, just get a note and argue it with someone else!>
I, nor any one else, need take issue with that.
I repeat, however, that rules which do not provide a satisfactory solution should be challenged and fortunately there are people who throughout history have taken up that challenge and so progress has been made. No of course you don't have to be one of those people, but please be gracious enough to accept that they exist and you may well benefit from their endeavours.. in fact almost certainly have already
Of course
<Watch my lips- I am not justifying them. That's the rules- you wanna travel, follow the rules. In this case, to follow the rules, all you need is a BLOODY DOCTOR'S LETTER! Argue it with the CAA, NTSB, RSPCA for all I care....please, just get a note and argue it with someone else!>
I, nor any one else, need take issue with that.
I repeat, however, that rules which do not provide a satisfactory solution should be challenged and fortunately there are people who throughout history have taken up that challenge and so progress has been made. No of course you don't have to be one of those people, but please be gracious enough to accept that they exist and you may well benefit from their endeavours.. in fact almost certainly have already
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well go challenge it in the right place! This is a Pilots Forum, not a 'I want to complain about security procedures' Forum! Complain to the Security people, not to the crews who have to follow instructions.
I most sincerely hope I do have a lot of living to do! About another 50 years should be enough.
I most sincerely hope I do have a lot of living to do! About another 50 years should be enough.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roghead -all you need is a bloody doctors letter- yeah right.
United - rejected the letter as easily forgable. Then made me inject myself with insulin infront of them of a dose of their choosing. Then noticed there were two types of insulin and made me inject the other. Followed by one pf the morons commments that if it was amixture for a bomb I was now a suicide bomber and laughed. They then let me board the plane!!
( for those diabetices- 12u actrapid & 20u Insulatard)
BA1 - Nigel idiot rejected the letter because it was more than 2 weeks old and he wanted a current letter with a current prescription.
BA2 - Rejected the letter because the doctors name was foreign. Nice to know that Nigels are a bunch of small minded racist w**ker s aswell as being thick
Air NZ- prior to 9/11 wanted me to only take exactly what I thoguht I would need on the plane and a letter. I offered to write them a letter as I am a dr, and proceeded to write a letter on a bit of scrap paper from my bag which they accepted.
So have rules but apply them consisitently and with a little bit of knowledge!!
Next time BA ask for a diabetic with insulin to come forward because some arse in Club had forgotten his they can take a flying jump and watch him coma!! ( And yes they have done just that!)
United - rejected the letter as easily forgable. Then made me inject myself with insulin infront of them of a dose of their choosing. Then noticed there were two types of insulin and made me inject the other. Followed by one pf the morons commments that if it was amixture for a bomb I was now a suicide bomber and laughed. They then let me board the plane!!
( for those diabetices- 12u actrapid & 20u Insulatard)
BA1 - Nigel idiot rejected the letter because it was more than 2 weeks old and he wanted a current letter with a current prescription.
BA2 - Rejected the letter because the doctors name was foreign. Nice to know that Nigels are a bunch of small minded racist w**ker s aswell as being thick
Air NZ- prior to 9/11 wanted me to only take exactly what I thoguht I would need on the plane and a letter. I offered to write them a letter as I am a dr, and proceeded to write a letter on a bit of scrap paper from my bag which they accepted.
So have rules but apply them consisitently and with a little bit of knowledge!!
Next time BA ask for a diabetic with insulin to come forward because some arse in Club had forgotten his they can take a flying jump and watch him coma!! ( And yes they have done just that!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Middlesesx
Posts: 2,075
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a seasoned 30 year airline person I have to agree with Rainboe. If the pax does not have the correct paperwork then he cannot fly, just as if he did not have his passport. This to me is an example of the pax blaming us for his own shortfalls. However, I am sure his business if he takes it elsewhere will be missed but that is his decision.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with you on that FemaleSurgeon! aftet they managed to cook mine on the flt back from BKK no way they're getting their hands on it.
I have a letter but I don't even bother telling them, I have no probs flollowing the rules, but they do have to be applied consistently which it woud appear they don't seem to be at present
x
I have a letter but I don't even bother telling them, I have no probs flollowing the rules, but they do have to be applied consistently which it woud appear they don't seem to be at present
x
Last edited by Helli-Gurl; 14th Mar 2005 at 16:28.
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are no 'fridges' on most 747s. They have cold boxes for storing ice and for keeping food items cold. Do you think you have a right for medicinal supplies to be kept there? What next- 'biological samples' kept on top of ice being kept for people's drinks? I'm afraid IF you have to have something kept cold for you at a guaranteed temperature, then perhaps a refridgerator can be loaded for you (which you will have to pay for). Why should everybody else pay for your particular medical requirements- your ticket cost is for basic transportation- if you have special needs for Oxygen, guaranteed cold stores whatever, you should pay for that service rather than assume everybody else is happy to pay for it.
If anybody took your Insulin to keep cold, they were perhaps being very kind to you, but after some 10 hours, who is to know what temperature was reached in this cold store- I doubt very much it was that effective.
I'm amazed that you should assume that other people will solve your problems for you. If I was in this situation, I would carry my pack next to a freezer pack wrapped up in newspaper. It would last the flight. Why do you assume you can hand the problem to your transportation company- they are to get you to your destination, not pander to a thousand different medical needs that the patient is well able to solve themselves.
If anybody took your Insulin to keep cold, they were perhaps being very kind to you, but after some 10 hours, who is to know what temperature was reached in this cold store- I doubt very much it was that effective.
I'm amazed that you should assume that other people will solve your problems for you. If I was in this situation, I would carry my pack next to a freezer pack wrapped up in newspaper. It would last the flight. Why do you assume you can hand the problem to your transportation company- they are to get you to your destination, not pander to a thousand different medical needs that the patient is well able to solve themselves.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wouldnt need a fridge if they managed to keep the temp in the cabin at 25 degrees C or below, however on this flt the temp was up at 30 degrees for several hours and under BA's policy it unfortunately tough luck...I understand why they wont hold drugs etc and have no problem with that, however in situations outside of the paasengers control such as the cabin temp being ludicrously high then they should at least make an exceptions where situations could lead to someone becming ill.
This wasn't the first flt either where I've been on a BA plane with faulty air conditioning and that problem has been known about for some time. Not wanting to put BA down here as policy is policy but what idiot knowing full well a plane has faulty air conditioning sends it to a tropical country anyway! not the crews fault but someone in management needs a kick!
This wasn't the first flt either where I've been on a BA plane with faulty air conditioning and that problem has been known about for some time. Not wanting to put BA down here as policy is policy but what idiot knowing full well a plane has faulty air conditioning sends it to a tropical country anyway! not the crews fault but someone in management needs a kick!
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You were lucky- sometimes the rear cabin gets up to 38 deg C on the ground. We do our best to try and control it, but 350 people in close proximity each giving off some 100W lightbulb level heat and a fuselage baking in topical sun overwhelms all modern airconditioning systems- but that is why people go to these places for anyway- because they are hot. Until we get airborne with high airflow through the packs, we can't start cooling it down. People can travel at fares undreamt of a few decades back- it comes with the cheap fares and easy travel.
The Auxiliary Power Units are unfortunately not that reliable and do break down. We always use ground conditioning units anyway at Bangkok, and it is difficult and uncomfortable when the APUs are U/S. If it is any consolation, the one place hotter than the hottest part of the cabin is the flight deck!
The Auxiliary Power Units are unfortunately not that reliable and do break down. We always use ground conditioning units anyway at Bangkok, and it is difficult and uncomfortable when the APUs are U/S. If it is any consolation, the one place hotter than the hottest part of the cabin is the flight deck!
Last edited by Rainboe; 14th Mar 2005 at 16:51.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: new york
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
attn female surgeon
Next time BA ask for a diabetic with insulin to come forward because some arse in Club had forgotten his they can take a flying jump and watch him coma!! ( And yes they have done just that!)
Nice attitude for a medical person to have.
I am not going to call you a liar but must point out that this situation must have arisen in some kind of extreme circumstance.
Insulin is available in all BA medical kits and with clearance from Medilink in Phoenix it can be given to the passenger to administer himself.
Should the passenger coma, then assistance by a willing medical professional might be requested and diverson seen as a solution.
Nice attitude for a medical person to have.
I am not going to call you a liar but must point out that this situation must have arisen in some kind of extreme circumstance.
Insulin is available in all BA medical kits and with clearance from Medilink in Phoenix it can be given to the passenger to administer himself.
Should the passenger coma, then assistance by a willing medical professional might be requested and diverson seen as a solution.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Had all this from the long suffering boyfriend Rainboe, but even he admits the situation was unacceptable and he was on the flight deck at the time, the plane didnt even cool down in flt, only after 3 hours or so and getting intouch with people back in LHR..by which time the damage was done....it still remains, if you get these problems on a healthy plane what idiot knowingly sends a plane with faulty air conditioning to a tropical country...?
This plane had been flying around with this problem and it was known about for over 3 weeks!
And no it's no consolation that the flight deck is probably hotter, why should we cook alone
This plane had been flying around with this problem and it was known about for over 3 weeks!
And no it's no consolation that the flight deck is probably hotter, why should we cook alone
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Disappointed - I do go and help pax in trouble, but BA in my experience, have the rudest laziest crew when they want you to do something.
Med kits have improved markedly in recent years and if you think I would trust insulin that has been in a med kit and not in a fridge then you are mad. ( see heli-gurls comments) For those of you on a hot flight, wrap it in one of those hand cloths they give you and ask for a cup of ice. Does the trick just as well.
It must be something with the HK route, because that is the one I have had most problems with and a thank you has yet to be received from a BA member of staff. ( called on that route 5 times)
Monarch, Cathay, Thai etc on the other hand -could not be nicer. Just a simple thank you for your help is sufficient.
Not the BA response of, well it is your job isn't and you have to help them. No darling, BA do not employ me, pay me or pay my malpractice insurance, yet expect a free service whenever they get into trouble.
Rules are rules, but when they change the goal posts every time you fly, for something that is none of their bloody business in the first place, it is bloody annoying.
I now carry a tatty piece of paper undated and signed by myself and in the past three years have never once been asked for evidence!
Med kits have improved markedly in recent years and if you think I would trust insulin that has been in a med kit and not in a fridge then you are mad. ( see heli-gurls comments) For those of you on a hot flight, wrap it in one of those hand cloths they give you and ask for a cup of ice. Does the trick just as well.
It must be something with the HK route, because that is the one I have had most problems with and a thank you has yet to be received from a BA member of staff. ( called on that route 5 times)
Monarch, Cathay, Thai etc on the other hand -could not be nicer. Just a simple thank you for your help is sufficient.
Not the BA response of, well it is your job isn't and you have to help them. No darling, BA do not employ me, pay me or pay my malpractice insurance, yet expect a free service whenever they get into trouble.
Rules are rules, but when they change the goal posts every time you fly, for something that is none of their bloody business in the first place, it is bloody annoying.
I now carry a tatty piece of paper undated and signed by myself and in the past three years have never once been asked for evidence!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: new york
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
apology
female surgeon - my apologies- i was incorrect ...
there is no insulin in the kits
thanks for coming forward to help on board, i cannot understand why you have never been thanked a) by the crew dealing with the matter on the day or b) by more formal routes, as this is supposed to be the way things work - and indeed generally DO work
there is no insulin in the kits
thanks for coming forward to help on board, i cannot understand why you have never been thanked a) by the crew dealing with the matter on the day or b) by more formal routes, as this is supposed to be the way things work - and indeed generally DO work
Guest
Posts: n/a
I don't mind taking the flack from femalesurgeon for using your quote Rainboe, but do try not to be such a boorish, patronising ostrich.
"Well go challenge it in the right place! This is a Pilots Forum, not a 'I want to complain about security procedures' Forum! Complain to the Security people, not to the crews who have to follow instructions."
Yes this is a professional pilots website and the posting is on a Rumour and News forum and I am not conducting a campaign, merely pointing out that other peoples experiences should interest you as a (BA) 747 Captain. All is not black and white and the many shades of grey are the challenges to Command.
Comments like "who have to follow instructions" need a qualifying clause or it sounds like an excuse.
Pity, really 'cos some of your other posts seem to indicate that you are human, and talk a lot of sense.
Finally, I have to admit an interest in the "disability aspects" as my wife is and we still fly.
"Well go challenge it in the right place! This is a Pilots Forum, not a 'I want to complain about security procedures' Forum! Complain to the Security people, not to the crews who have to follow instructions."
Yes this is a professional pilots website and the posting is on a Rumour and News forum and I am not conducting a campaign, merely pointing out that other peoples experiences should interest you as a (BA) 747 Captain. All is not black and white and the many shades of grey are the challenges to Command.
Comments like "who have to follow instructions" need a qualifying clause or it sounds like an excuse.
Pity, really 'cos some of your other posts seem to indicate that you are human, and talk a lot of sense.
Finally, I have to admit an interest in the "disability aspects" as my wife is and we still fly.