FlyBe offload 30 pax on Glasgow - Belfast flight
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"better down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here". Does anyone remember these words?
Says it all I think - alcohol and flying don't mix, and if you are in charge and worried there is only one answer: STOP.
Passengers (ie PEOPLE) don't like smells and rowdiness, especially when they are confined and unable to move away.
If you are at work and someone goes to the pub, comes back over the limit and pukes in the wastepaper basket, what is your reaction? Why should cabin crew pick up the bag and dispose of it ?
Two good reasons not to allow ....artists on board without considering the corpses of those who couldn't get out in an emergency due incapacitated (drunk) fellow passengers.
Easy choice in my book - no experience required.
Says it all I think - alcohol and flying don't mix, and if you are in charge and worried there is only one answer: STOP.
Passengers (ie PEOPLE) don't like smells and rowdiness, especially when they are confined and unable to move away.
If you are at work and someone goes to the pub, comes back over the limit and pukes in the wastepaper basket, what is your reaction? Why should cabin crew pick up the bag and dispose of it ?
Two good reasons not to allow ....artists on board without considering the corpses of those who couldn't get out in an emergency due incapacitated (drunk) fellow passengers.
Easy choice in my book - no experience required.
Sly Lowlife Freight
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Midland Maniac, you read my mind - I worked 14 years in the nightclub industry and one thing that I learned was disruptive people are a minority and behave in the way they are allowed to. Simple - 'my gaff, my rules' 'my aircraft, my rules' I don't know the precise reasons or events at play here but if I was one of the 17 passengers who stayed on then I reckon I'd be buying the crew a drink and no complaints.
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An assumption has been made in previous posts that all 37 pax were drunk (or at least disorderly). Local NI news has reported that they were part of a group of 40 local Tesco managers who were returning back to Belfast. A number of those off loaded stated quite clearly that they do not drink alcohol and were therefore clearly not drunk, while others said that they hadn't drunk anything before the flight as they were driving from BHD after arrival. It serves no purpose to generalise, particularly when you don't have access to sufficient information to make that generalisation.
Reports say that some high spirited banter occurred when one female member of the party was asked to change her seat. No report either from flyBe or those pax on board has given any indication whatsoever that the crew, other pax or the aircraft itself were in any danger. Just that they became raucous (for some reason) at this event.
I wasn't on board, so am basing everything on reports in the local Belfast media, but as someone who has travelled weekly between BHD and GLA for some time with BA before they pulled off the route, and as a result, with a substantial mix of pax on this route over the years, this incident would appear to be a gross over reaction from the crew to an incident involving professional people who would probably have responded positively to a different approach from the crew. These weren't 'tribal' yobs as referred to in an earlier post, returning from an old firm game, who may have over indulged in some alcohol and lost the plot altogether.
Reports say that some high spirited banter occurred when one female member of the party was asked to change her seat. No report either from flyBe or those pax on board has given any indication whatsoever that the crew, other pax or the aircraft itself were in any danger. Just that they became raucous (for some reason) at this event.
I wasn't on board, so am basing everything on reports in the local Belfast media, but as someone who has travelled weekly between BHD and GLA for some time with BA before they pulled off the route, and as a result, with a substantial mix of pax on this route over the years, this incident would appear to be a gross over reaction from the crew to an incident involving professional people who would probably have responded positively to a different approach from the crew. These weren't 'tribal' yobs as referred to in an earlier post, returning from an old firm game, who may have over indulged in some alcohol and lost the plot altogether.
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Drap Air wrote
Again according to the BBC (NI) news they had a CAMERA crew and reporter on board so there may well be evidence.The BBC reporter basically said that there was a bit of banter but that he had seen much worse.Tescos are apparently not going to let the matter rest.
slf boy
If only I could ...might visit Glasgow MUCH more regularly .
the story from BBC
Does the a/c not have cctv?
slf boy
go for the 'duty free slurp' of the vodka etc
If only I could ...might visit Glasgow MUCH more regularly .
the story from BBC
Last edited by eastern wiseguy; 14th May 2004 at 14:58.
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The Tescos story would explain a lot of things- This could not have been caused by returning OF fans, as both the OF were actually playing a game when this event happened- 20:30. Therefore, not footy fans as has hastily been assumed...
As far as making an example of this unacceptable behaviour so that others will think twice, I'm left with the view that
It's doubtful in my mind that 37 people could be singled out as misbehaving without lots and lots of evidence, thus the only lesson that I can surmise the public will accept is that somthing is mighty fishy here.
It's doubtful in my mind that 37 people could be singled out as misbehaving without lots and lots of evidence, thus the only lesson that I can surmise the public will accept is that somthing is mighty fishy here.
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lomapaseo,
Depends how they were checked in.
If they were checked in as one (Tesco) group. May have been difficult to work out who the exact culprets were within the group.
Possibily off-loaded the entire group as a result.
Only a suggestion.
Depends how they were checked in.
If they were checked in as one (Tesco) group. May have been difficult to work out who the exact culprets were within the group.
Possibily off-loaded the entire group as a result.
Only a suggestion.
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I must i am in full agreement with Captains decision to offload these pax's - Why should the other passenger's have there flight possible endageredand disrupted by a group of un-ruelly passenger's.
Why should the remaining pax's as well as the crew have to put up with rowdiness of one group of pax's who are travelling on the flight.
As has been mentioned before flight safety could have been comprimised once the a/c was airborne.
What is even worse was that this was a group of Tesco manager's !!! surely they should know how to behave - i'm sure that they have rule's for there employees and sets of standards that they expect there employee's to follow if they are out on company business - so if they have rule's why dont they follow them selves and abide by the standards that they are supposed to set for there employees.
From what i know they were checked in as a group and it was difficult to find out who the culprit's were hence why the whole group was offloaded. I also heard from several sources that once the group had been offloaded the cabin stank of alcohol.
Really i would have thought management at a major UK company such as Tesco would really know how to behave themselves.
Why should the remaining pax's as well as the crew have to put up with rowdiness of one group of pax's who are travelling on the flight.
As has been mentioned before flight safety could have been comprimised once the a/c was airborne.
What is even worse was that this was a group of Tesco manager's !!! surely they should know how to behave - i'm sure that they have rule's for there employees and sets of standards that they expect there employee's to follow if they are out on company business - so if they have rule's why dont they follow them selves and abide by the standards that they are supposed to set for there employees.
From what i know they were checked in as a group and it was difficult to find out who the culprit's were hence why the whole group was offloaded. I also heard from several sources that once the group had been offloaded the cabin stank of alcohol.
Really i would have thought management at a major UK company such as Tesco would really know how to behave themselves.
Maybe your gate agents ("over there") have trouble spotting passengers who are drunk, whether that was the case on said flight, or not.
Over here, agents have trouble spotting those who have a hidden attitude problem-they can become uncooperative when in their seat, with cell phone (or drink) in hand. A flight att. told me that a recent passenger sat at the overwing emergency exit seat and then put on his neck brace
He was told to change seats and certainly knew that he had broken the rules. When he told the crew, upon arrival, that he wanted their names and employee numbers, the captain said, nope, they were tired and going to the hotel-but the guy's name was entered into the company computers so that future gate agents will be ready for his tricks.
As for alcohol, the FARs prohibit intoxicated people on board, yet the gate agents are not expected to deny boarding to someone, just because he or she is in a jolly good mood.
Over here, agents have trouble spotting those who have a hidden attitude problem-they can become uncooperative when in their seat, with cell phone (or drink) in hand. A flight att. told me that a recent passenger sat at the overwing emergency exit seat and then put on his neck brace
He was told to change seats and certainly knew that he had broken the rules. When he told the crew, upon arrival, that he wanted their names and employee numbers, the captain said, nope, they were tired and going to the hotel-but the guy's name was entered into the company computers so that future gate agents will be ready for his tricks.As for alcohol, the FARs prohibit intoxicated people on board, yet the gate agents are not expected to deny boarding to someone, just because he or she is in a jolly good mood.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 16th May 2004 at 04:14.
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I'm definitely with the captain on this one. Sort it out on the ground, not on the air. A group of Tesco managers - how come they couldn't manage to all be sober when they got onto an airplane? Not too much to manage, says I.
Why do so many supposedly responsible folks (not just the ones in this case, but countless others) think getting on an airplane is a good reason to get smashed? Can't they forsake tippling just a while in the interest of the safety of themselves and others?
As others have pointed out, those fine managers made the captain choose between keeping them on the airplane versus violating CAA regulations and putting his/her career in jeopardy. Guess what the captain chose to do? Duh! Looks like Tesco doesn't hire the brightest people to manage their establishments (understatement of the day, says I).
--ev--
Why do so many supposedly responsible folks (not just the ones in this case, but countless others) think getting on an airplane is a good reason to get smashed? Can't they forsake tippling just a while in the interest of the safety of themselves and others?
As others have pointed out, those fine managers made the captain choose between keeping them on the airplane versus violating CAA regulations and putting his/her career in jeopardy. Guess what the captain chose to do? Duh! Looks like Tesco doesn't hire the brightest people to manage their establishments (understatement of the day, says I).
--ev--
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I dont intend to get involved as I work for Flybe--but the statement above is completely scurrilous. The Commander left the cockpit and over many minutes tried to direct events so as to regain control. Self evidently, he finally decided he was unable to do so.
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I suspect a bit of light jocular banter was totally mis-read. I believe the commander never even moved from his seat, instead deciding to be an "armchair judge".
Could this not be a total overreaction by an arrogant crew abusing their position?
What right do those passengers have to endanger the safety of the other passengers?
Also, the Captain is not the only one accountable to the airline for preventing disruptive passengers from boarding the aircraft. The Handling Check-in and Gate Staff, Dispatcher and Cabin Crew are too.
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I too work for Flybe. Don't know the Captain involved, but if it had been me sat in the RHS, I would fully support him/her in whatever decision they made. Not only do you have to think of the safety of the a/c and it's self-loading cargo, but also the comfort of those travelling. If I had paid a fair amount of money as a passenger, and ended up being surrounded by a group who were noisy and 'unruly', whether drunk or not, I wouldn't be too happy.
If the a/c had departed with the unruly pax, and a situation had developed in the skies, the Capt would have been the first person to receive a telling off from all those who know better - but who weren't actually there and don't know the full story.
Unless anyone on here was actually there, and does know the full facts, don't criticise.
To the Capt involved if you are reading this -
If the a/c had departed with the unruly pax, and a situation had developed in the skies, the Capt would have been the first person to receive a telling off from all those who know better - but who weren't actually there and don't know the full story.
Unless anyone on here was actually there, and does know the full facts, don't criticise.
To the Capt involved if you are reading this -
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I wonder what would happen if a loud and disorderly group of customers walked into a Tesco's supermarket ? Do you think that security/management would have a word with them to quieten down. What do you think would happen next if they ignored such warnings ? My guess is they would be asked to leave.
One of the difference's between Supermarkets and Airlines (and there are many) is that Airlines attract more news - period. Have you ever read in a newspaper 'TESCO'S THROW'S OUT DISORDERLY GROUP FROM SUPERMARKET' ? Doesn't have quite the same impact does it.
The Captain in question probably does on average 20 sectors a week - something like 1000 flights a year
The fact that this sort of thing only happens once in a blue moon proves quite simply that most passengers know how to behave and therefore do not need to be asked to leave the A/C.
Well done to the whole crew
One of the difference's between Supermarkets and Airlines (and there are many) is that Airlines attract more news - period. Have you ever read in a newspaper 'TESCO'S THROW'S OUT DISORDERLY GROUP FROM SUPERMARKET' ? Doesn't have quite the same impact does it.
The Captain in question probably does on average 20 sectors a week - something like 1000 flights a year
The fact that this sort of thing only happens once in a blue moon proves quite simply that most passengers know how to behave and therefore do not need to be asked to leave the A/C.Well done to the whole crew
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Advice from Tesco's travel insurance
"• Local Customs - check out local customs to help you avoid getting into trouble (such as the local alcohol laws). "
Why preach to the converted on this site, contact Tesco.
The Northern Ireland regional manager is Richard Baker and the commercial manager involved is Cliff Kells. Trying to explain why rowdyness (whether caused by drink or not) is unacceptable in the confines and safety environment of a passenger plane maybe difficult to those with retail background, but it's worth a go.
"• Local Customs - check out local customs to help you avoid getting into trouble (such as the local alcohol laws). "
Why preach to the converted on this site, contact Tesco.
The Northern Ireland regional manager is Richard Baker and the commercial manager involved is Cliff Kells. Trying to explain why rowdyness (whether caused by drink or not) is unacceptable in the confines and safety environment of a passenger plane maybe difficult to those with retail background, but it's worth a go.
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For info, in BA, before between boarding and push back its the SCCM's decision to carry a passenger or not.
A decision to ofload a passenger at this stage cannot be overruled by the captain except he can offload if the CSD wants to carry.
Saying all that in my experience a quiet word usually does the trick and I've seen many many examples of gross over reaction by crew which has been easily smoothed over with a smiling threat between the teeth.
People usully quieten down when they think they won't get home.
If there is an investigation I hope the truth outs. If then its decided that the captain was guilty of a gross over reaction I hope the company get hung for it.
BTSM
A decision to ofload a passenger at this stage cannot be overruled by the captain except he can offload if the CSD wants to carry.
Saying all that in my experience a quiet word usually does the trick and I've seen many many examples of gross over reaction by crew which has been easily smoothed over with a smiling threat between the teeth.
People usully quieten down when they think they won't get home.
If there is an investigation I hope the truth outs. If then its decided that the captain was guilty of a gross over reaction I hope the company get hung for it.
BTSM
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>>captain was guilty of a gross over reaction I hope the company get hung for it.<<
The Capt in any situation such as this should never be classed as guilty of a gross over reaction. No matter how many eye-witnesses etc you have, the Capt interprets what he/she sees on the day and makes a decision. Whether other passengers on board were happy to continue, or whether the ground staff thought the passengers behaviour was acceptable is totally besides the point. It is the Capt who would have his head chopped if anything serious had happened from carrying the unruly passengers, so the final decision lies with him.
And as for the company being hung for it - I don't think so.
The Capt in any situation such as this should never be classed as guilty of a gross over reaction. No matter how many eye-witnesses etc you have, the Capt interprets what he/she sees on the day and makes a decision. Whether other passengers on board were happy to continue, or whether the ground staff thought the passengers behaviour was acceptable is totally besides the point. It is the Capt who would have his head chopped if anything serious had happened from carrying the unruly passengers, so the final decision lies with him.
And as for the company being hung for it - I don't think so.
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"No matter how many eye-witnesses etc you have, the Capt interprets what he/she sees on the day and makes a decision. "
Absolutely, but IF the decisions are wrong they must be answered for.
Throwing up the ANO and commander this and that mantras to give blanket exemption to a possibly poor decision is getting as bad as hiding everything under security or terrorism.Plenty of moaning when the authorities use that smoke screen.
The ANO is not designed to give mandate to those who MAY lack the skills to make an informed decision or wield their warrants in an arrogant superior way.
Holding an atpl and exercising your duty is not an exemption from accountability. Everyday i witness t0ssers deliberatly being awkward and hiding behind their command.
Lets start a thread here for everyone that doesnt follow every little rule in the ANO tomorow,and then quotes it publicly....works both ways. Not many takers I'll wager.
Hypothetically I bet they wouldnt have been offloaded if they were a crew members realtions/friends on a hen or stag or something.Context is everything
My money is still on tea and biscuits.
Right back to the beer
Absolutely, but IF the decisions are wrong they must be answered for.
Throwing up the ANO and commander this and that mantras to give blanket exemption to a possibly poor decision is getting as bad as hiding everything under security or terrorism.Plenty of moaning when the authorities use that smoke screen.
The ANO is not designed to give mandate to those who MAY lack the skills to make an informed decision or wield their warrants in an arrogant superior way.
Holding an atpl and exercising your duty is not an exemption from accountability. Everyday i witness t0ssers deliberatly being awkward and hiding behind their command.
Lets start a thread here for everyone that doesnt follow every little rule in the ANO tomorow,and then quotes it publicly....works both ways. Not many takers I'll wager.
Hypothetically I bet they wouldnt have been offloaded if they were a crew members realtions/friends on a hen or stag or something.Context is everything
My money is still on tea and biscuits.
Right back to the beer