Infants In Business Class
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Hmm, similar to a scenario I once heard of when a pax in club complained when the CC offered the pax behind her a spray of a perfume tester, she complained it was affecting her sense of smell. The CC asked if madam would in future be better off taking her own private jet?
You pays your money, you takes your choice!
All pax pay a similar amount to travel, depending on your ticket supplier, its not fair someone should have to travel in a lower class just because they chose to have kids. It may be annoying when you want peace and relaxation but then maybe so does the mother or child???
Anyone can book club or first providing they can afford it, it is not an exclusive club.
Any airline who may one day announce a childban, is (I feel) risking their whole image of being a caring airline!! Especially whereas most flights I used to operate would carry on average up to 10% children under 10.
Whenever I had the time as CC, I used to take troublesome or upset children and wonder up and down the cabin with them, to try and calm them down. It gave the mother a rest and diverted the child away from their boredom.
Children get upset because they sense their mother or father is harassed from a previous 5 hour journey, delays, uncomfortablensss, lack of rest..... Often children suffer with ear problems after climb and at descent, whch can ache the entire flight if not balanced out to match the cabin pressure, and they dont understand why they are hurting or cant speak to tell someone!
ANYWAY, HERE'S SOME HINTS FOR TRAVELLING WITH KIDS......
EAR PROBS:
Adults & Children: A good remedy for this is a few drops of olbas oil on a tissue in a cup or doubled up plastiglass, then soaked in a little hot water, then close nose around top, close your eyes and inhale for as long as possible (apologies for the temporary smell in the cabin) DO NOT TIP UP THE CUP!! Then blow nose!
Young children & babies: A few drops of karvol oil on a hanky inhaled 30 mins before flight, or during a flight especially if they have a cold, or if during climb/descent then try a dummy/pacifier or a bottle).
Adults not travelling with children complaining about crying children: Buy earplugs, insert into ears, enjoy your flight.
TRAPPED WIND/ STOMACH CRAMPS:
Bend yourself over your left knee or massage left hand side of abdomen (once again, apologies for the temporary smell in the cabin - so take yourself off to the loo compartment, they have airvents!!) If you think an infant has tummy ache, pat their stomach gently, it seems to give reassurance.
Always carry calpol or similar, the sachets are very handy!!
KEEPING THEM BUSY.....
Ensure you have adequate entertainment for kids, crayons are good, travel connect 4, comics, puzzle books, walkmans for older kids (please be careful you limit the volume, the listener will have background noise so will want to turn it up, not good for the ears!)
Baby toys are great, especially if they are teething and need something to bite on, but be considerate and make sure its not too rattly or musical.
Simple items they are not used to, like empty plastic cups or a toothbrush (different textures) can keep them occupied for a while.
Walking around the cabin with a baby (between services, when not busy in the aisles, not obstructing a tv screen, and when its safe to leave your seat) is great, sometimes the baby is bored of their scenery and gets restless, then upset, you also may get other passengers stopping you to see your baby which creates a diversion for the child.
Hope this helps, the only thing I would suggest is that you check with cabin crew to ensure using anything smelly or electrical, or walking around their galley is ok by them on your flight, after all all airlines vary.
For the remaining 763 pages I have written on this subject today , please send and sae to.............!!
PS Nick Riviera, I'm British and very tolerant, and I know I'm not the only one.
You pays your money, you takes your choice!
All pax pay a similar amount to travel, depending on your ticket supplier, its not fair someone should have to travel in a lower class just because they chose to have kids. It may be annoying when you want peace and relaxation but then maybe so does the mother or child???
Anyone can book club or first providing they can afford it, it is not an exclusive club.
Any airline who may one day announce a childban, is (I feel) risking their whole image of being a caring airline!! Especially whereas most flights I used to operate would carry on average up to 10% children under 10.
Whenever I had the time as CC, I used to take troublesome or upset children and wonder up and down the cabin with them, to try and calm them down. It gave the mother a rest and diverted the child away from their boredom.
Children get upset because they sense their mother or father is harassed from a previous 5 hour journey, delays, uncomfortablensss, lack of rest..... Often children suffer with ear problems after climb and at descent, whch can ache the entire flight if not balanced out to match the cabin pressure, and they dont understand why they are hurting or cant speak to tell someone!
ANYWAY, HERE'S SOME HINTS FOR TRAVELLING WITH KIDS......
EAR PROBS:
Adults & Children: A good remedy for this is a few drops of olbas oil on a tissue in a cup or doubled up plastiglass, then soaked in a little hot water, then close nose around top, close your eyes and inhale for as long as possible (apologies for the temporary smell in the cabin) DO NOT TIP UP THE CUP!! Then blow nose!
Young children & babies: A few drops of karvol oil on a hanky inhaled 30 mins before flight, or during a flight especially if they have a cold, or if during climb/descent then try a dummy/pacifier or a bottle).
Adults not travelling with children complaining about crying children: Buy earplugs, insert into ears, enjoy your flight.
TRAPPED WIND/ STOMACH CRAMPS:
Bend yourself over your left knee or massage left hand side of abdomen (once again, apologies for the temporary smell in the cabin - so take yourself off to the loo compartment, they have airvents!!) If you think an infant has tummy ache, pat their stomach gently, it seems to give reassurance.
Always carry calpol or similar, the sachets are very handy!!
KEEPING THEM BUSY.....
Ensure you have adequate entertainment for kids, crayons are good, travel connect 4, comics, puzzle books, walkmans for older kids (please be careful you limit the volume, the listener will have background noise so will want to turn it up, not good for the ears!)
Baby toys are great, especially if they are teething and need something to bite on, but be considerate and make sure its not too rattly or musical.
Simple items they are not used to, like empty plastic cups or a toothbrush (different textures) can keep them occupied for a while.
Walking around the cabin with a baby (between services, when not busy in the aisles, not obstructing a tv screen, and when its safe to leave your seat) is great, sometimes the baby is bored of their scenery and gets restless, then upset, you also may get other passengers stopping you to see your baby which creates a diversion for the child.
Hope this helps, the only thing I would suggest is that you check with cabin crew to ensure using anything smelly or electrical, or walking around their galley is ok by them on your flight, after all all airlines vary.
For the remaining 763 pages I have written on this subject today , please send and sae to.............!!
PS Nick Riviera, I'm British and very tolerant, and I know I'm not the only one.
Last edited by sixmilehighclub; 6th Apr 2004 at 13:48.
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eal401 wrote:
"I'm not entitled to a flight undisturbed by rowdy kids."
But that is precisely the point that I was making: why single out rowdy kids? What about the adult walking around without shoes, or the guy in the lounge yelling into his mobile phone? I find them every bit offensive, if not more, than rowdy kids. But how many threads do you see about them? Parents with kids just present an easier target, that's all and its' wrong.
"I'm not entitled to a flight undisturbed by rowdy kids."
But that is precisely the point that I was making: why single out rowdy kids? What about the adult walking around without shoes, or the guy in the lounge yelling into his mobile phone? I find them every bit offensive, if not more, than rowdy kids. But how many threads do you see about them? Parents with kids just present an easier target, that's all and its' wrong.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
6mile, thank you for posting that info. 
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eal401
Quite right, you're not. You have no right whatsoever to such a flight. The same goes for a journey on a bus and train, or any other area where people gather in large numbers. Such a right is not recognised either in law, or existing moral and social conventions: Society understands that such incidents, while being irritating or unpleasant are an unfortunate side effect of a lot of people existing together in a confined area.
Were you to exercise such a theoretical right, you would in the process, deny the right of those kids/family to travel (subject to your subjective assesment of "rowdy"), or if they did travel, simply transfer the inconvenience to other geographically remote customers. You are deeming your rights as being more important than those of other people.
In summary - This sort of hissy fit whinging is not dissimilar to that exhibited by the very young children that are being complained about. Next time it happens, look around: Everyone else is equally irritated, but they're dealing with it like adults. Try learning from example?
I'm not entitled to a flight undisturbed by rowdy kids.
Were you to exercise such a theoretical right, you would in the process, deny the right of those kids/family to travel (subject to your subjective assesment of "rowdy"), or if they did travel, simply transfer the inconvenience to other geographically remote customers. You are deeming your rights as being more important than those of other people.
In summary - This sort of hissy fit whinging is not dissimilar to that exhibited by the very young children that are being complained about. Next time it happens, look around: Everyone else is equally irritated, but they're dealing with it like adults. Try learning from example?
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Please tell me this thread is a joke...right?
You are travelling on public transport...guess what..there'll be other members of the public with you.....
Arrogant, smelly, obnoxious, noisy, old, young, attractive, ugly, funny, sad, talkative, shy, rude, pleasant...and that's just F class pax.
Get used to it or stay at home.
You are travelling on public transport...guess what..there'll be other members of the public with you.....
Arrogant, smelly, obnoxious, noisy, old, young, attractive, ugly, funny, sad, talkative, shy, rude, pleasant...and that's just F class pax.
Get used to it or stay at home.
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Strake wrote:
Strake, it would be if it didn't resurface at depressingly frequent intervals....... Some people should spend their lives in an oxygen tent
Please tell me this thread is a joke...right?
Passengers should be expected to show consideration for others. That means stopping their kids from behaving in a manner which causes annoyance to others - why should the whole cabin be disturbed by out-of-control spoiled brats running up and down the aisles, for example?
Children should be seen and not heard. Not such an unreasonable idea...
Children should be seen and not heard. Not such an unreasonable idea...
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[/quote] "Passengers should be expected to show consideration for others. That means stopping their kids from behaving in a manner which causes annoyance to others - why should the whole cabin be disturbed by out-of-control spoiled brats running up and down the aisles, for example? "[quote]
hmm, let's see, adults deficating on food trays, adulkts having sex in UC, adults fighting with FA, adults trrying to open doors on a/c, adults stealing anything not tied down, adults fighting with other passengers, adults vomiting on the floor
and all of these examples happen in first class
and you are whining on about children????
hmm, let's see, adults deficating on food trays, adulkts having sex in UC, adults fighting with FA, adults trrying to open doors on a/c, adults stealing anything not tied down, adults fighting with other passengers, adults vomiting on the floor
and all of these examples happen in first class
and you are whining on about children????
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You are deeming your rights as being more important than those of other people.
Based on the above quote, nobody has the right to go past an aisle seat passenger to go to the loo, nobody has the right to walk around the plane, nobody has the right to eat, drink etc.
But if anybody says "I don't like kids" all the "my darlings do what they like" types are screaming blue murder! Yet, I'm the one being selfish!! Ho-hum.
By the way, I don't have a problem with well behaved kids in public. However, in the UK, this is an ever increasing rarity that the Rose-Tinted Spectacles gang fail to see.
Oh and Warkman, I've not witness any of the adult behaviour you describe, though I don't deny that it happens in rare instances. I have been kept awake on night flights by screaming kids. How arrogant of me to want to sleep.
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Warkman said
In something like 500 flights over the last five years (in various classes and on various carriers) I have not seen a single instance of any of these. However, I guess I have had babies (and frankly it is far more often babies than (3-12 yo) children that are the problem) causing sufficient extended disturbance (let's define that as 30mins or more in a flight) that I was unable to work or sleep as I had planned on perhaps 15 occasions.
I'm afraid earplugs simply don't work well enough if they baby is within 10 yards. The only thing that comes close is a good pair of noise-cancelling headphones with some fairly loud music being played through them.
The question isn't about rights - the question is whether there is a sufficient market of people prepared to pay a premium for "infant-free" flights for it to make business sense for some airlines on some routes. Clearly it wouldn't work on all routes, but on busy ones where an airline flies, say, 3 or more times per day then I would have thought it would be worth an experiment to make one of those flights - presumably one at peak business travel time - infants-free, with a slight price premium (say 5%) and see what happened.
adults deficating on food trays, adulkts having sex in UC, adults fighting with FA, adults trrying to open doors on a/c, adults stealing anything not tied down, adults fighting with other passengers, adults vomiting on the floor
I'm afraid earplugs simply don't work well enough if they baby is within 10 yards. The only thing that comes close is a good pair of noise-cancelling headphones with some fairly loud music being played through them.
The question isn't about rights - the question is whether there is a sufficient market of people prepared to pay a premium for "infant-free" flights for it to make business sense for some airlines on some routes. Clearly it wouldn't work on all routes, but on busy ones where an airline flies, say, 3 or more times per day then I would have thought it would be worth an experiment to make one of those flights - presumably one at peak business travel time - infants-free, with a slight price premium (say 5%) and see what happened.
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Private air offer a "non-infant/child" service. Maybe all those whos right it is to a peacefull, un-disturbed flight should look at this option. Other than that, stop complaining and accept the fact that its public transport.
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Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying that we parents (I am a parent after all) are absolved of any responsibility regarding our children and should allow them to run rampant through the cabin (whichever class that is.... Y class is no more a playground than the pointy end is). I am just tired of parents being singled out for criticism on a regular basis when there are plenty of adults who are far more offensive than children are.
One thing has become patently clear to me over the years during my travels. People have (generally...luckily there are exceptions) become selfish and intolerant. To the point where one's freedom becomes an encroachment on the others. How often have you heard someone say something really nasty about someone and then claim "freedom of speech". The slogan "it's a free world" being used as an excuse to do something which is quite obviously an inconvenience to someone else.
Getting on with each other is all about compromise and looking for solutions both parties can live with. It is something we often forget as we look for "all or nothing" solutions. Strangely enough people who master this concept are often less stressed and generally just feel better about themselves. It's really worth making the effort....
One thing has become patently clear to me over the years during my travels. People have (generally...luckily there are exceptions) become selfish and intolerant. To the point where one's freedom becomes an encroachment on the others. How often have you heard someone say something really nasty about someone and then claim "freedom of speech". The slogan "it's a free world" being used as an excuse to do something which is quite obviously an inconvenience to someone else.
Getting on with each other is all about compromise and looking for solutions both parties can live with. It is something we often forget as we look for "all or nothing" solutions. Strangely enough people who master this concept are often less stressed and generally just feel better about themselves. It's really worth making the effort....
Just another seat number
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As a parent and a frequent flyer, who will soon be taking mini MAN Pax (20 mths) to BGI in 1st, I can see both sides of the case.
I think that BA and VS could both accommodate the serious no children element by making the upper deck of the 747 either a child permitted or no child zone, depending on the demand for either. On main business routes where people are paying a premium price to arrive rested and ready to work the following day, I believe that there should be some protection of that right. On mainly leisure routes, BGI, MRU, etc., I think you have to be a little more flexible.
But, this is no way excuses poor behaviour from Parents, Children or Spoilt Children masquerading as 45 year old Pax!
I think that BA and VS could both accommodate the serious no children element by making the upper deck of the 747 either a child permitted or no child zone, depending on the demand for either. On main business routes where people are paying a premium price to arrive rested and ready to work the following day, I believe that there should be some protection of that right. On mainly leisure routes, BGI, MRU, etc., I think you have to be a little more flexible.
But, this is no way excuses poor behaviour from Parents, Children or Spoilt Children masquerading as 45 year old Pax!
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Quote
"adults deficating on food trays, adulkts having sex in UC, adults fighting with FA, adults trrying to open doors on a/c, adults stealing anything not tied down, adults fighting with other passengers, adults vomiting on the floor"
Maybe if some parents took better control of their children, and didn't let them behave how they liked, they might possibly grow into adults who wouldn't dream of doing any of the above acts.
Spoilt brats grow into louts, who don't give a sh1t about anyone else.
419
"adults deficating on food trays, adulkts having sex in UC, adults fighting with FA, adults trrying to open doors on a/c, adults stealing anything not tied down, adults fighting with other passengers, adults vomiting on the floor"
Maybe if some parents took better control of their children, and didn't let them behave how they liked, they might possibly grow into adults who wouldn't dream of doing any of the above acts.
Spoilt brats grow into louts, who don't give a sh1t about anyone else.
419
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I really wonder how many of the 'outraged parents' brigade who are having a hissy fit about the intolerance of the rest of us would react on a solo business flight to having the toddler in the seat behind them kick their ass for hours and scream all through the night?
I'm sure you are all the very model of tolerance and perseverance.
After all...being a parent equips you for martyrdom.
I'm sure you are all the very model of tolerance and perseverance.
After all...being a parent equips you for martyrdom.
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What i can't seem to get my head around is the amount of young children travelling abroad in the middle of a school term.
Don't want to give you a bleeding heart story but I was about 9 years old the first time I got onboard an airplane and I remember looking forward to it and had a better understanding, appreciation and anticipation for it and even went on to become a pilot!
And I intend to do the same with my kids in the future, they certainly won't be missing school to follow me around the world on business or to go on holidays and they absoloutely, certainly won't be getting first class tickets at 18 months old!!
Its not my position to tell you how to bring up your kids but......
Don't want to give you a bleeding heart story but I was about 9 years old the first time I got onboard an airplane and I remember looking forward to it and had a better understanding, appreciation and anticipation for it and even went on to become a pilot!
And I intend to do the same with my kids in the future, they certainly won't be missing school to follow me around the world on business or to go on holidays and they absoloutely, certainly won't be getting first class tickets at 18 months old!!
Its not my position to tell you how to bring up your kids but......
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Few years ago I flew from Bahrein to LHR in a BA 777, Business Class. All was going swimmingly until the seatbelt sign was switched off. That was the signal for a 10yo brat to start charging around the front cabin (he came from cattle class, where there was less room for his activities). He steadfastly ignored the long-suffering stewardesses, bad-mouthing one of them. After about an hour of this, a well-suited businessman quietly spoke to the kid. That was the last we saw of him. To this day I never found out what he said. He should copyright what he said and sell it to those of us that can't stand ill-disciplined brats.