BA...That's It, I've Had Enough
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 572
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From: Around
European Airports / Airlines Best Avoided At All Costs
Best avoided, but can be done:
4: CDG/AF
Only if you really, really must:
3: FCO/AZ
Only if life or limbs are at risk:
2: FRA/LH
Never, never, never:
1: LHR/BA
Keep these 4 simple rules in mind, and aviating will be much more hassle free. To ensure the minimum level of hassle, avoid LHR all together. Too bad since VS is not a bad airline to pax on, its just their choice of hub that stinks ...
4: CDG/AF
Only if you really, really must:
3: FCO/AZ
Only if life or limbs are at risk:
2: FRA/LH
Never, never, never:
1: LHR/BA
Keep these 4 simple rules in mind, and aviating will be much more hassle free. To ensure the minimum level of hassle, avoid LHR all together. Too bad since VS is not a bad airline to pax on, its just their choice of hub that stinks ...
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 978
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From: LGW - Hub of the Universe!
....avoid LHR all together.
Try Tel Aviv, the BA ground staff are notorious liars (you ask to sit in either row 6 or 7 and are regularly told that in this part of the cabin the IFE system doesn't work - when they really want to keep it as a crew rest area), the BA CC cabins are grubby and tatty on the 767.
Whilst row 6/7 may be designated the crew rest area, (probably due to the proximity of the galley and an area where the crew are least likely to disturb pax when they shuffle in and out for their breaks), the check-in staff in TLV would have no way of knowing this.
All they see when they check you in and bring up the seat map is that Row 6/7 are "Unusable". Usually, if seats are "U" status, it means either "Unfitted" or "Unusable" due to IFE not working, Seat Belts deemed unsafe, Tray Table broken, Recline ratchet broken etc etc The most common breakage on a seat by far, though, is the IFE (as no electronic system yet designed responds well to an environment where food and drink are regularly spilt on it!)
To be 100% fair, none of us on check-in are supposed to refer to a seat map at all. All we are supposed to ask you is if you like a "window or Aisle" and let the computer allocate seats. If we did this, the computer would automatically compensate for Weight and Balance trim and keep allocate remaining single seats so that families can be accommodated etc.
Last edited by bealine; 18th February 2004 at 17:53.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
Whislt I agree that LHR is pit (well, several pits actually) I am lucky where it is concerned. For most of the past 25 years, I have lived within 35 miles of it, so I never use it as a hub. I can get in and get out with some ease. The only time I did change there, was a T1-T3 txfer onto VS and I just allowed LOTS of time and made it OK.
If BAA were a govt department, then an Ombudsman would be appointed to find out why it's so $hitty. Actually, there is no need, as we all know why.
If BAA were a govt department, then an Ombudsman would be appointed to find out why it's so $hitty. Actually, there is no need, as we all know why.
Pilots' Pal
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 1,158
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From: USA
Paxboy,
Good points. I have to say some UK regional airports are not too bad - I quite like NCL. Manchester has gone down a bit; the landside arrival & departure areas are a bit grotty and the motorway approaches are heavily littered.
Good points. I have to say some UK regional airports are not too bad - I quite like NCL. Manchester has gone down a bit; the landside arrival & departure areas are a bit grotty and the motorway approaches are heavily littered.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Nowt wrong with Aeroflot's international service, and the premium cabin vodka trolley has to be seen to be believed.
The shame about BA is they lose customers over issues which wouldn't cost much (if anything) to put right.
The shame about BA is they lose customers over issues which wouldn't cost much (if anything) to put right.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,395
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
I for one will never fly ba until Marshall, King and the rest of the Dirty Tricksters have nothing more to do with that apology for an airline... Not my loss - theirs. I will have flown 70 sectors as a passenger in FY 2003, but not a brass farthing has gone to ba.
I'd stopped flying from Thiefrow until a last minute need to fly to Dresden last Sunday found my normal BHX flight full. So off to LHR..... M40/M25 choked even on a Sunday morning, arrived at the Long Term car park to be told that it was full! For f*ck's sake, this is supposed to be a major international airport!! So, a drive to the 'Pink Elephant' clutching a discount voucher. On to the bus and the usual slow drive through the dungeons under T1 before being dropped at T2. Which was heaving. Queued for the LH business class check-in for a good 10 minutes, check-in itself was fine. Then up to that cattle crush at the security gate. Security folk were pleasant enough, but what a dump they have to work in! Up to the business lounge - unlike FRA/MUC/DUS/BHX, no wi-fi access in the LH lounge.... Flight called and off to another grubby waiting area. Trip back was even worse - inbound from DUS, up scruffy jet pier which smelt like a wet labrador. Trudge along the tatty corridors and into that utter disgrace of the baggage reclaim. Then outside into the rain (why no canopy over the bus stops - except for the Pink Elephant?), onto bus, get stuck in Thiefrow's infamous internal traffic jams, finally back to car park. 1130 Sunday until 1756 Tuesday evening? That'll be £42 including discount!! Next mystery - WHY ISN'T THE NORTHBOUND M25 signposted?? So instead I find myself crawling along the A4 to Slough, then M4, A404M and queue to get onto the M40. Take a back road at Wheatley to avoid the latest A40 roadworks west of Oxford, home at 1945......
Compare this with flying from BHX. Drive through rural England to the A46/M40 roundabout (probably the worst signposted roundabout in England), then along quick secondary roads to the A45 and the airport - about 1 hr 20 minutes. Long Term car park always has stacks of space, so leave car, onto bus, terminal within 5 minutes. Or walk if the weather's nice. Queue for maybe 2 minutes at check-in, then a short walk to security and on to the lounge. Which, unlike LHR, does have wi-fi access.... Lounge to gate is about a 2 minute walk, unlike Thiefrow. When inbound, short walk to passport control and baggage reclaim, then pay for car parking (about 1/3 of the cost at LHR) in the terminal, short bus trip or walk to car park. Easy trip home.
So I now avoid LHR like the plague. It is overcrowded and expensive and an utter shambles. Flights to Europe from BHX are slightly longer, so that means a meal instead of a snack - even better value.
I'd stopped flying from Thiefrow until a last minute need to fly to Dresden last Sunday found my normal BHX flight full. So off to LHR..... M40/M25 choked even on a Sunday morning, arrived at the Long Term car park to be told that it was full! For f*ck's sake, this is supposed to be a major international airport!! So, a drive to the 'Pink Elephant' clutching a discount voucher. On to the bus and the usual slow drive through the dungeons under T1 before being dropped at T2. Which was heaving. Queued for the LH business class check-in for a good 10 minutes, check-in itself was fine. Then up to that cattle crush at the security gate. Security folk were pleasant enough, but what a dump they have to work in! Up to the business lounge - unlike FRA/MUC/DUS/BHX, no wi-fi access in the LH lounge.... Flight called and off to another grubby waiting area. Trip back was even worse - inbound from DUS, up scruffy jet pier which smelt like a wet labrador. Trudge along the tatty corridors and into that utter disgrace of the baggage reclaim. Then outside into the rain (why no canopy over the bus stops - except for the Pink Elephant?), onto bus, get stuck in Thiefrow's infamous internal traffic jams, finally back to car park. 1130 Sunday until 1756 Tuesday evening? That'll be £42 including discount!! Next mystery - WHY ISN'T THE NORTHBOUND M25 signposted?? So instead I find myself crawling along the A4 to Slough, then M4, A404M and queue to get onto the M40. Take a back road at Wheatley to avoid the latest A40 roadworks west of Oxford, home at 1945......
Compare this with flying from BHX. Drive through rural England to the A46/M40 roundabout (probably the worst signposted roundabout in England), then along quick secondary roads to the A45 and the airport - about 1 hr 20 minutes. Long Term car park always has stacks of space, so leave car, onto bus, terminal within 5 minutes. Or walk if the weather's nice. Queue for maybe 2 minutes at check-in, then a short walk to security and on to the lounge. Which, unlike LHR, does have wi-fi access.... Lounge to gate is about a 2 minute walk, unlike Thiefrow. When inbound, short walk to passport control and baggage reclaim, then pay for car parking (about 1/3 of the cost at LHR) in the terminal, short bus trip or walk to car park. Easy trip home.
So I now avoid LHR like the plague. It is overcrowded and expensive and an utter shambles. Flights to Europe from BHX are slightly longer, so that means a meal instead of a snack - even better value.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,016
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From: London,Bucharest...wherever...
'The shame about BA is they lose customers over issues which wouldn't cost much (if anything) to put right.'
I couldn't agree more...but with (general) staff attitude and interest now at a similar low to Air France and Sabena (oh dear god for you have done us all a favour) think they are losing more pax than they are gaining...
As we (and Bealine) have said before someone from on high had better start listening to pax and staff alike...that is the crux of the problem I feel...communication
I couldn't agree more...but with (general) staff attitude and interest now at a similar low to Air France and Sabena (oh dear god for you have done us all a favour) think they are losing more pax than they are gaining...
As we (and Bealine) have said before someone from on high had better start listening to pax and staff alike...that is the crux of the problem I feel...communication
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,079
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From: Middlesesx
I regret all of these comments and having travelled with many other airlines as part of my job they are all about the same. There are good days and bad days. Those who feel strongly that BA are so poor might try booking a flight with them, as there are very many more than satisfied with BAs performance.
Eight Gun Fighter
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,126
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From: Western Approaches
Seems to be morphing into a LHR thread.
I fly into/out of LHR about 14 times a year. Don't have a choice. I use T3, don't have a choice.
I coach in and out to/from Oxford and it's mostly ok - 70 minutes. Never been badly delayed. Worst bit is always in Oxford itself. Never been delayed getting to Central Bus Station. Usually one elevator is u/s it seems. OK, can put up with a 4 minute delay. Long slog underground to T3 but travelling pavement type thingees are usually working and a suitcase with wheels is a good thing. Getting to check-in is usually ok but often have to manouver around masses of people who seem to have started their day with a brick slammed upside their head. Check-in (don't use BA) can be a bit of a line-up (BA staff check-in at T4 was always a pain - thankfully I don't have to use that inefficient little office anymore) but I've often been re-directed to an open higher class check-in counter by helpfull queue monitor and sometimes have gone straight to the desk on arrival. Staff even sometimes recognize me.
Security can take a while. About 20 minutes has been my longest. No problem, a bit slow but efficient.
Hate being funneled into tax-free shops. There are no real deals. Not enough restaurants and only one smoking area. Another long slog to departure gate when gate number is finally announced. No separation of incoming and outgoing pax at this point.
Arrival - Long slog from gate to Immigration but never delayed long there - staff sort of friendly and efficient. Too many folks in the arrivals area. Does the entire extended familly of 14 really need to be there for every third world passenger arriving? Always feel defensive using the cash machine with so many stander arounders about. Long slog underground to coach station. Usually raining upon surfacing.
I've been through worse airports that deal with a lot less volume.
I fly into/out of LHR about 14 times a year. Don't have a choice. I use T3, don't have a choice.
I coach in and out to/from Oxford and it's mostly ok - 70 minutes. Never been badly delayed. Worst bit is always in Oxford itself. Never been delayed getting to Central Bus Station. Usually one elevator is u/s it seems. OK, can put up with a 4 minute delay. Long slog underground to T3 but travelling pavement type thingees are usually working and a suitcase with wheels is a good thing. Getting to check-in is usually ok but often have to manouver around masses of people who seem to have started their day with a brick slammed upside their head. Check-in (don't use BA) can be a bit of a line-up (BA staff check-in at T4 was always a pain - thankfully I don't have to use that inefficient little office anymore) but I've often been re-directed to an open higher class check-in counter by helpfull queue monitor and sometimes have gone straight to the desk on arrival. Staff even sometimes recognize me.
Security can take a while. About 20 minutes has been my longest. No problem, a bit slow but efficient.
Hate being funneled into tax-free shops. There are no real deals. Not enough restaurants and only one smoking area. Another long slog to departure gate when gate number is finally announced. No separation of incoming and outgoing pax at this point.
Arrival - Long slog from gate to Immigration but never delayed long there - staff sort of friendly and efficient. Too many folks in the arrivals area. Does the entire extended familly of 14 really need to be there for every third world passenger arriving? Always feel defensive using the cash machine with so many stander arounders about. Long slog underground to coach station. Usually raining upon surfacing.
I've been through worse airports that deal with a lot less volume.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,016
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From: London,Bucharest...wherever...
'Fraid the old 'good days and bad' excuse/reason doesn't wear - if you look at the reasons Strake and myself (colleagues) deserted BA (detailed in previous threads) it revolves around numerous different incidents over quite a period of time where (in my case) every flight out of a years flying on BA had some form of grief/agro/bad experience etc.
I am not going to use the phrase 'leaving in droves' but many people I know particularly in the higher tariff business travel tariffs are looking at alternatives to BA and are no longer give BA priority as a company/product (as they used do)..and some like Strake and myself and clearly a few others will no longer touch BA if it was the last flight to the last place etc. etc.
In 2002, my last BA trips, flying BA as an overall experience deteriorated to as bad an overall experience as flying Sabena...and that really is saying something
I am not going to use the phrase 'leaving in droves' but many people I know particularly in the higher tariff business travel tariffs are looking at alternatives to BA and are no longer give BA priority as a company/product (as they used do)..and some like Strake and myself and clearly a few others will no longer touch BA if it was the last flight to the last place etc. etc.
In 2002, my last BA trips, flying BA as an overall experience deteriorated to as bad an overall experience as flying Sabena...and that really is saying something
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 161
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From: london
Ba
I agree with hz123, most airlines seem the same to me, we all have bad days, but the loads are still very heavy with ba, every flight i have operated recently seems to be full, and the passengers all have a choice, so they choose to come to us!!!
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Disagree that all airlines are the same. I'd agree that all "decent" airlines are unbelievably and incredibly safe and get you there at about the right time, and it could be argued that's all that really matters. But the bottom line is that safefy doesn't differentiate anymore.
If you fly a lot then you soon see that level of customer care differs greatly between airlines. I don't believe those once or twice a year long haul pax (who are currently filling up the planes because the US dollar is in the toilet) get to appreciate this.
LHR sucks. When flying to/from USA now prefer to fly via MAN and transit in some US East Coast hub rather than fly non-stop out of LHR. To Europe LHR to be avoided at all costs. Out to Asia and points on, LHR still unfortunately makes sense. That's just the way it goes.
If you fly a lot then you soon see that level of customer care differs greatly between airlines. I don't believe those once or twice a year long haul pax (who are currently filling up the planes because the US dollar is in the toilet) get to appreciate this.
LHR sucks. When flying to/from USA now prefer to fly via MAN and transit in some US East Coast hub rather than fly non-stop out of LHR. To Europe LHR to be avoided at all costs. Out to Asia and points on, LHR still unfortunately makes sense. That's just the way it goes.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
To return to the BA of the thread title. I demoted BA 16 years ago and, like others, will not return until they have got rid of the Dirty Tricks mob.
As I have said in many threads, BA offer a very reasonable service most of the time when I do occasionally travel on them.
As to the 'They have a free choice and have chosen us', well, mostly it is money that chooses! Friends travelling from South Africa often land up on BA because the fares are low but they do not always appreciate the service ...
BA is demonstrating all of the classic symptoms of a major organisation that is nearing the end of it's natural life. This happens to ALL such, whether they are countries/empires or fast food franchise/airlines. There comes a point when they have run their course and NOTHING can bring them back. No matter how much money or talented management they might hire.
As I have said in many threads, BA offer a very reasonable service most of the time when I do occasionally travel on them.
As to the 'They have a free choice and have chosen us', well, mostly it is money that chooses! Friends travelling from South Africa often land up on BA because the fares are low but they do not always appreciate the service ...
BA is demonstrating all of the classic symptoms of a major organisation that is nearing the end of it's natural life. This happens to ALL such, whether they are countries/empires or fast food franchise/airlines. There comes a point when they have run their course and NOTHING can bring them back. No matter how much money or talented management they might hire.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,016
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From: London,Bucharest...wherever...
I understand that BA are officially concerned about their ever reducing yields due to losing those all important higher yield regular pax. - a full plane doesn't necessarily mean high yields, profits and/or does not necessarily indicate/make a successful airline...
Example 1/3 the BA MOW flight sold of 'group travel' to Kuoni (or used to be) who certainly arent paying ordinary pax. tariffs for those seats
Example 1/3 the BA MOW flight sold of 'group travel' to Kuoni (or used to be) who certainly arent paying ordinary pax. tariffs for those seats
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,079
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From: Middlesesx
Paxboy: it is time you joined the real world I fail to see that what happened 16 years ago can still influence you now. Going on your principle then I assume you cannot visit the USA ( due to their dirty tricks over Iraq) and must be in a terrible quandary at the next elections in the UK. Once again BA's lose is anothers gain.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,395
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Regrettably ba have failed to wake up to the fact that (and I'm glad you now admit it that it did happen, HZ123) the scandal of 16 years ago is still seen by many people as an outrage - yet many of the guilty are still being paid huge salaries by ba.
We have long memories, and the appearance of Marshall on the end-of-Concorde TV programme, together with his praise for King, merely reinforced my resolve NEVER to fly ba until ALL the Dirty Tricksters have been rooted out and expunged from the company once and for all.....
Even though I'm sure that the aircrew and cabin crew do an excellent job, the spectre of the Dirty Tricks era still hangs around ba like a bad smell.
We have long memories, and the appearance of Marshall on the end-of-Concorde TV programme, together with his praise for King, merely reinforced my resolve NEVER to fly ba until ALL the Dirty Tricksters have been rooted out and expunged from the company once and for all.....
Even though I'm sure that the aircrew and cabin crew do an excellent job, the spectre of the Dirty Tricks era still hangs around ba like a bad smell.
Last edited by BEagle; 24th February 2004 at 19:32.
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HZ123
Although I don't take the same view as BEagle and Paxboy over the 'dirty tricks' campaign, I think it is you who needs to get into the real world.
These people are pax and your comments regretably give the impression of high handed arrogance, which many people perceive to be typical of BA.
I am a strong supporter of BA, but being defensive is not the way to react IMHO.
Although I don't take the same view as BEagle and Paxboy over the 'dirty tricks' campaign, I think it is you who needs to get into the real world.
These people are pax and your comments regretably give the impression of high handed arrogance, which many people perceive to be typical of BA.
I am a strong supporter of BA, but being defensive is not the way to react IMHO.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,842
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
HZ123
16 years ago? One company that had a fantastic product and nothing to fear, decided to try and kill off another company by underhand and illegal means. If I discover that any other company from whom I buy products or services was to do this or similar, I would stop using them immediately.
You are correct that I find the USA reprehensible. On the occasions that I go there, it is to visit my friends. I would like to see more of that beautiful country and, one day, I may do so.
As to the next elections in the UK, they give me no problem at all. I have never voted for Blair and never will. From the moment I first saw him on TV (following the death of John Smith, when he was in the running for leader) I said, "There is something not right with that man and I cannot trust him." My mind has not been changed on that.
Any other principles I live with and by? Many - but two at random: There is another airline who often have cheap fares and thousands of satisfied cutomers but I never use them as I do not like the way they do business, even if it costs me more money. Also, I try to help those that I can and not hurt those that I cannot. This includes making accusations at people I do not know, based on too little information.
Paxboy: it is time you joined the real world I fail to see that what happened 16 years ago can still influence you now. Going on your principle then I assume you cannot visit the USA ( due to their dirty tricks over Iraq) and must be in a terrible quandary at the next elections in the UK. Once again BA's lose is anothers gain.
You are correct that I find the USA reprehensible. On the occasions that I go there, it is to visit my friends. I would like to see more of that beautiful country and, one day, I may do so.
As to the next elections in the UK, they give me no problem at all. I have never voted for Blair and never will. From the moment I first saw him on TV (following the death of John Smith, when he was in the running for leader) I said, "There is something not right with that man and I cannot trust him." My mind has not been changed on that.
Any other principles I live with and by? Many - but two at random: There is another airline who often have cheap fares and thousands of satisfied cutomers but I never use them as I do not like the way they do business, even if it costs me more money. Also, I try to help those that I can and not hurt those that I cannot. This includes making accusations at people I do not know, based on too little information.