3 lost west of Brisbane Monday 29-8-22
|
The ADS-B track paints an interesting picture....
|
Originally Posted by KRviator
(Post 11286955)
The ADS-B track paints an interesting picture....
|
Very Highly experienced pilot supposedly caught out by marginal weather, at least according to the news.
Odd and inconceivable to me that it could be pilot error. |
Not wrong. Seems odd.
What was the weather? |
Originally Posted by wombat watcher
(Post 11286966)
and what is that?
If you want to kill yourself fart-arsing about in bad weather, go hard. Don't risk the lives of your passengers who are trusting your judgement and experience to keep them safe.
Originally Posted by Poppa Jo
What was the weather?
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....65eba42e89.jpg And this one is looking southwest, from Ipswich at around the time of the crash, both images from the Windy.com archives.https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a8abece487.jpg |
Originally Posted by lucille
(Post 11286976)
Very Highly experienced pilot supposedly caught out by marginal weather, at least according to the news.
Odd and inconceivable to me that it could be pilot error. |
So sad, and we were only just talking about the dangers of VFR into marginal conditions on the thread regarding the Islander in Tasmania... Even if it turns out to be engine failure or similar the lack of altitude leads to lack of options.
|
Originally Posted by lucille
(Post 11286976)
Very Highly experienced pilot supposedly caught out by marginal weather, at least according to the news.
Odd and inconceivable to me that it could be pilot error. |
Originally Posted by lucille
(Post 11286976)
Very Highly experienced pilot supposedly caught out by marginal weather, at least according to the news.
Odd and inconceivable to me that it could be pilot error. |
Originally Posted by uxb99
(Post 11287045)
Happened to Neil Williams in a Heinkel 111. Can happen.
|
Reads eerily similar to the Kobe Bryant crash.
How much recent fixed wing time did the pilot have compared to his rotorcraft? |
https://www.news.com.au/national/que...3e94be866aa646
They were quick to release the pax details. Dare I say that if I was worth $47m, I wouldn’t be flying around in an old Cessna. |
A great buddy: RIP Gary.
|
Did the pilot hold an IR (looking at his previous experience)?
|
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
(Post 11287379)
https://www.news.com.au/national/que...3e94be866aa646
They were quick to release the pax details. Dare I say that if I was worth $47m, I wouldn’t be flying around in an old Cessna. Plenty of ATSB reports indicate that can happen to the best of experienced pilots and it would appear that the more expensive the pax, the more likely it is also. So sad. |
Does anyone know the callsign?
|
|
Not the first time that a wealthy pax takes a final ride in an old piston engine aircraft when they could have easily chartered a fully IFR turbo prop. Mt Hotham, Menagazzo in the Chieftain and now this. Flying somewhere is not like hiring a stretched limo. There is also the issue of pilot age. Sorry, but the older you get the more your skills and cognitive abilities reduce. At different rates but they do deteriorate. Experience only gets you so far. On the day you are only as good as your last decision and the older you are the less agile your decision making is.
|
Experience only gets you so far.
My observation is that experience, aligned with skill and knowledge, puts one well ahead of the game. One might appeal to a comment ascribed to Frank Borman - A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill. (libquotes.com) (I am not commenting on what the mishap pilot did or did not do as I wasn't there and would need a lot more information to contemplate things in detail. However, there are still lessons to be learned for the new chums). |
Originally Posted by john_tullamarine
(Post 11287454)
However, there are still lessons to be learned for the new chums.
|
As someone who cut their teeth flying in the area, I think the track flown is not only strange, but it likely tells the story!
|
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
(Post 11287379)
https://www.news.com.au/national/que...3e94be866aa646
They were quick to release the pax details. Dare I say that if I was worth $47m, I wouldn’t be flying around in an old Cessna. |
As someone who cut their teeth flying in the area, I think the track flown is not only strange, but it likely tells the story |
Looks like approaching the dividing range from the W they diverted to right of planned track until perhaps able to see a gap below cloud and over top of the range, ducked over the range near Pilton, then ducked down one of the valleys running ~NE until resumed track to intercept the northern VFR route through Amberley airspace. Not an unheard-of scenario for a lot of VFR pilots returning to YBAF when the clouds press up against the range, though most go south to Cunningham's Gap or Spicer's Gap. Passed quite a few ALAs near the end e.g. Gatton, Coominya, though. Was the ACFT and pilot IFR rated? If so, and if plan B (ALA or off-ALA landing) wasn't an option, a plan C could have been to turn away from high ground, climb to lowest safe and ask Amberley Approach for assistance as a PAN.
Very sad for the families - lost some good folks by all accounts. |
Why would someone worth ~$50M be flying around VFR in a 40+ year old aircraft if they needed to get somewhere?? How many more of these type of accidents do we need until people get the message??
Yes, it's ironic. John Denver and Steve Fossett, both rich and famous, died flying nondescript aircraft. Plenty of rich people fly single engine aircraft or warbirds for fun and take the inherent risk. |
It this was a charter, were they even legally able to upgrade to IFR?
|
Originally Posted by Clarie
(Post 11287477)
It this was a charter, were they even legally able to upgrade to IFR?
|
Originally Posted by Clarie
(Post 11287477)
It this was a charter, were they even legally able to upgrade to IFR?
Originally Posted by neville_nobody
(Post 11287475)
Why would someone worth ~$50M be flying around VFR in a 40+ year old aircraft if they needed to get somewhere?? How many more of these type of accidents do we need until people get the message??
|
Originally Posted by PiperCameron
(Post 11287487)
To answer that, you'd really need to know what avionics was fitted to the aircraft, but it'd be a brave charter pilot who took on a job in a Day-VFR only
Legal to operate IFR though as a charter flight? No. Would I do it if the only other alternative was CFIT? Hmm |
Originally Posted by PiperCameron
(Post 11287487)
To answer that, you'd really need to know what avionics was fitted to the aircraft, but it'd be a brave charter pilot who took on a job in a Day-VFR only aircraft.
Oh, PLEEZE!!! Not that old furphy again! The age of the aircraft has absolutely nothing to do with safety nor it's comfort level, nor it's ability to carry out the mission! In fact many older aircraft are actually safer than the newer versions, maintenance and owner $$ spend depending. I love old Cessnas, in fact they're just about all I fly. But having recently flown a 172N model with a full Garmin G3X panel - likely worth more installed than the airframe and engine - there is no doubt in my mind that most of the GA fleet are operating on old legacy technology that is inherently less reliable than modern glass options. For instance, Garmin Synthetic Vision (available on G1000 and later I think) would have potentially helped with terrain avoidance if it was VFR into IMC. Garmin Electronic Stability and Protection would have helped if it was loss of control. I could go on but I'm sure you get the point. |
VFR into IMC no aircraft is safer than another, all fixed wing aircraft out of control will hit the hill at a speed that's non-survivable, and as yet there's no safety device that will protect you from that. The weak link is the brains in the system, not the machine. Glass cockpits and fancy gadgets and we still have VFR loss of control in IMC. If you are not trained for IFR and are flying in tight valleys with limited visibility any excursion into cloud will probably be fatal. Very few airlines even allow circling approaches these days, why, because visual maneuvering in confined areas in low visibility has caused many accidents, and that's with professional seasoned IFR pilots. Thinking that some fancy kit will save you will probably get you into more trouble.
|
Originally Posted by 43Inches
(Post 11287495)
VFR into IMC no aircraft is safer than another, all fixed wing aircraft out of control will hit the hill at a speed that's non-survivable, and as yet there's no safety device that will protect you from that. The weak link is the brains in the system, not the machine. Glass cockpits and fancy gadgets and we still have VFR loss of control in IMC. If you are not trained for IFR and are flying in tight valleys with limited visibility any excursion into cloud will probably be fatal. Very few airlines even allow circling approaches these days, why, because visual maneuvering in confined areas in low visibility has caused many accidents, and that's with professional seasoned IFR pilots. Thinking that some fancy kit will save you will probably get you into more trouble.
|
If you happen to inadvertently go IMC en-route well above the ground and possibly have ok instrument skills or a good autopilot I might say yes. But twisting through valleys, I doubt it would matter much. The time between losing visual reference and hitting a tree/hill at low level there's probably not even enough time for a good IFR pilot to switch to internal ques and references the fancy screens.
|
Originally Posted by Turkeyslapper
(Post 11287464)
Was the track attempted to stay clear of Amberley? Easier terrain wise through the zone to YBAF - Did he request a clearance or is there a hesitance to do so with military ATC?
|
VFR into IMC flying below higher terrain.
Would Carby Icing be possible? |
All I'm saying is that a non-instrument rated pilot would have had better odds if they were VFR into IMC and aided by modern avionics as found in new glass cockpit GA aircraft |
Originally Posted by markfelt
(Post 11287504)
VFR into IMC flying below higher terrain.
Would Carby Icing be possible? https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2022-041/ |
Originally Posted by The Banjo
(Post 11287502)
And here starteth the conspiracy theories on military airspace. I am sure Dick Smith will chuck in his two bobs worth soon...
|
Oh, PLEEZE! Not that old furphy again!!!! The age of the aircraft has absolutely nothing to do with safety nor it's comfort level, nor it's ability to carry out the mission! In fact many older aircraft are actually safer than the newer versions, maintenance and owner $$ spend depending. Ask any warbird owner. |
All times are GMT. The time now is 08:49. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.