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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
(Post 11292358)
Just because we now have the 20-20 hind-site of the prang and the bad WX ‘vibe’ does not necessarily mean the pilot at the time thought of the flight as anything out of the ordinary or out of the minimas ‘box’..
Have a look at the ADS-B track, convert the altitude readout from PA to MSL and overlay it with a digital elevation model or topo chart and ask yourself "Would I be happy to do that?" I could (almost) guarantee the answer will come back "Yeah, naahhh...." I don't like speaking ill of those that aren't here to defend themselves, but CPL / CIR or no, there's no way in hell I'd "willingly" fly that profile. |
Originally Posted by megan
(Post 11292169)
Indeed we are not, but it needs to be remembered that even these two gentlemen made decisions that resulted in accidents where aircraft were written off, the former refusing to take instruction from a junior that lead to the loss of a F-104, the latter refueling his piston Aero Commander with Jet A, belatedly the former refused to accept responsibility, the latter did and went on to introduce to the industry a fuel nozzle that prevented misfuelling.
(Forever Flying pg.275-277) |
Originally Posted by KRviator
(Post 11292376)
That - to me at least - is even more concerning that there are / might be commercial pilots out there who think nothing of passing over the top of a hill with just 360 feet terrain clearance in what is demonstrably ****ty weather.
Have a look at the ADS-B track, convert the altitude readout from PA to MSL and overlay it with a digital elevation model or topo chart and ask yourself "Would I be happy to do that?" I could (almost) guarantee the answer will come back "Yeah, naahhh...." I don't like speaking ill of those that aren't here to defend themselves, but CPL / CIR or no, there's no way in hell I'd "willingly" fly that profile. Noting others comments on the integrity of some of these web trackers I’d like to see an ATSB report reference on the mater. |
The latter did not refuel himself, it was a line boy who after the accident felt deeply disturbed for mishandling the fuel. Bob then asked the boy to refuel again for the rest of the airshow Hoover asked, “Where’s the line boy who serviced my plane?” Everyone seemed reluctant to tell him, apparently afraid that the airshow performer wanted to chew him out or be unkind to him.Finally, someone said, “He’s outside.” Hoover quickly located the boy, standing by the fence, with tears in his eyes. Hoover went over and put his arm around the youngster and said, “There isn’t a man alive who hasn’t made a mistake. But I’m positive you’ll never make this mistake again. That’s why I want to make sure that you’re the only one to refuel my plane tomorrow. I won’t let anyone else on the field touch it.” And for the remainder of that weekend’s air show, the young man refueled Hoover’s P-51 without any further incident. |
Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
(Post 11292685)
Noting others comments on the integrity of some of these web trackers I’d like to see an ATSB report reference on the mater. They are safe to use after the fact for historical purposes, however there are real-time delays induced when trying to use them live, like sharing traffic between EFB’s for example - you can’t rely on it. |
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
(Post 11292752)
I often hear references like this, however gps coordinates are still gps coordinates… they don’t corrupt. The data packets either arrive, or they don’t.
They are safe to use after the fact for historical purposes, however there are real-time delays induced when trying to use them live, like sharing traffic between EFB’s for example - you can’t rely on it. My comment were that I have read of concerns with the web trackers. The matter is outside of my own knowledge. |
Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
(Post 11293284)
I accept that..:)
My comment were that I have read of concerns with the web trackers. The matter is outside of my own knowledge. |
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Read the report and was shocked. Only one thought….. Why?
With 40+ years and 13000+ hours, I would have thought the return to refuel in Dalby would have prompted an overwhelming urge to check out the Chicken Parmi that night at the Dalby RSL instead of trying again to push through in weather he had already experienced. If a guy like that can’t say no to the boss, imagine how difficult it must be for a 20 year old with 300 hours. |
Having never flown up there, how hard is it to get a clearance off the Amberley mob?
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And why would the pilot not have kept his instrument ratings current?
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 11351174)
And why would the pilot not have kept his instrument ratings current?
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I am also wondering how easy it is to transit Amberley CTR? The track around it seems to indicate that the PIC, for whatever reason, thought it would be more expedient to skirt it.
The Amberley military control zone extends from ground level up to an altitude of 8,500 ft (Figure 5). The airspace was active from 0800 to 2300 on 29 August and required a clearance to transit. Preliminary information indicated no record of a transit clearance request by the pilot, however, additional information is being collected by the ATSB to verify this. |
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 11351174)
And why would the pilot not have kept his instrument ratings current?
Just because he were not “ratings current” do not mean he were not current flying the dials. NGT VFR is defacto IF. He would have been current on the dials. |
Originally Posted by MagnumPI
(Post 11351207)
I am also wondering how easy it is to transit Amberley CTR? The track around it seems to indicate that the PIC, for whatever reason, thought it would be more expedient to skirt it.
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If he had a valid IFR rating then he could have lodged an IFR flight plan from Dalby to Archerfield and arrived safely. Instead he appears to have chosen to a tortuous VFR route that has killed him and two others. How expensive was it to not maintain the rating?
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Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11351308)
If he had a valid IFR rating then he could have lodged an IFR flight plan from Dalby to Archerfield and arrived safely. Instead he appears to have chosen to a tortuous VFR route that has killed him and two others. How expensive was it to not maintain the rating?
Depending on the panel layout, an avionics failure under the IFR may have given the same result. |
At the time of the prang I doubt that any form of avionics, working or otherwise, was going to be of much use to him. He would have been eyes outside looking for a flightpath through the hills. Fully IFR, Night VFR or limited panel IFR are irrelevant if you have put yourself below the hill tops with the tops of the hills covered in cloud.
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Originally Posted by Lookleft
(Post 11351328)
At the time of the prang I doubt that any form of avionics, working or otherwise, was going to be of much use to him. He would have been eyes outside looking for a flightpath through the hills. Fully IFR, Night VFR or limited panel IFR are irrelevant if you have put yourself below the hill tops with the tops of the hills covered in cloud.
To add. The ATSB report shows the aircraft were above the local terrain for a time. |
To add. The ATSB report shows the aircraft were above the local terrain for a time. |
I'm not at all familiar with the airspace around Archerfield, but for other reasons would like to be.
What I don't get is: Having found what looks to be the Lake Clarendon VFR route towards Archerfield around the top end of the control zone and starting to follow it in, why he suddenly left it, did a 180 and subsequently lost all SA. After skirting around a thunderhead or two maybe? Or is that only an outbound route from Archerfield?? https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....9f9d045717.jpg |
I’m impressed that they managed to take on 263 litres of fuel and be airborne 11 minutes after landing.
That speaks of someone in a huge rush. Would barely allow for a restroom stop. |
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
(Post 11351345)
I’m impressed that they managed to take on 263 litres of fuel and be airborne 11 minutes after landing.
That speaks of someone in a huge rush. Would barely allow for a restroom stop. So, yep, even with a high-flow (80l/min) pump that's one heck of a rush! And certainly no time at all for runups!! |
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
(Post 11351345)
I’m impressed that they managed to take on 263 litres of fuel and be airborne 11 minutes after landing.
That speaks of someone in a huge rush. Would barely allow for a restroom stop. |
"Or is that only an outbound route from Archerfield??"
No, it is two way, but there is high terrain at the eastern end near Fernvale to Lake Manchester and as you turn to the southwest for Archerfield. Flying that route requires a healthy respect for terrain clearance. If the weather was as poor as reported it would have been a difficult route to negotiate. Getting a clearance is only an issue when the military have hardware airborne. Generally, they are quite accommodating. |
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
(Post 11351345)
I’m impressed that they managed to take on 263 litres of fuel and be airborne 11 minutes after landing.
That speaks of someone in a huge rush. Would barely allow for a restroom stop. Perhaps a miss-print. Three on board with luggage = …? |
Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
(Post 11351415)
Um… Why would you take on 263 litres for a flight from Dalby to Archerfield with a slight diversion ?
Perhaps a miss-print. Three on board with luggage = …? |
Having never flown up there, how hard is it to get a clearance off the Amberley mob? For a VFR pilot, their airspace can be complex and intimidating. The terrain in that area is pretty intimidating as well if you're trying to get from the west to the eastern side of the range. There is lots of gotcha terrain as well, places where you think you can get through. It's just not the type of terrain you want to be messing around with in low vis and cloud. It's pretty simple getting over the range, if you're IFR. |
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
(Post 11351445)
182 with an IO540, I don't think weight was an issue.
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Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
(Post 11351938)
Still seems a lot of fuel to be lugging around. I’m thinking miss-print.
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Still seems a lot of fuel to be lugging around. I’m thinking miss-print. |
I don’t see anything unusual in the aircraft having been filled with fuel, if that’s what happened. So what if it was a short hop to YBAF? I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I haven’t filled tanks to full. It was a 182, not a 152 or 737.
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It was a 182, not a 152 or 737. |
No mention if the aircraft had a working AP.
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Is a serviceable A/P required for a VFR charter flight?
In any event, I agree with the earlier point made by Lookleft about the usefulness of gadgets once the pilot appeared to engage the aircraft in ‘scud running’. |
No but a working AP might well have helped. Plug in the AP, call for assistance from ATC and get above the hill tops going east bound. Worry about the paperwork after one arrives alive on the ground. Then confess and take up that long standing ATC offer 'We are here to help!'.
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I agree. Why an IFR qualified-but-not-current pilot did not just call Centre and say: “I’m in the gloop and I need help to get to non-gloop” is beyond me. But I have the same level of beyonded-ness about why a commercial pilot employed by a commercial operator in a commercial operation wasn’t IFR current and filing IFR flight plans in these kinds of circumstances. It’s not like they were doing sightseeing flights of Lake Eyre.
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call for assistance from ATC and get above the hill tops going east bound. |
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
(Post 11352053)
But I have the same level of beyonded-ness about why a commercial pilot employed by a commercial operator in a commercial operation wasn’t IFR current and filing IFR flight plans in these kinds of circumstances. It’s not like they were doing sightseeing flights of Lake Eyre.
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According to the report, the aircraft was equipped for flight under the IFR. My point is I don’t understand why the pilot didn’t just get on the dials, climb and make a pan call. He may not have been current, but that doesn’t mean he was completely incapable of a wings-level climb on the dials.
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