To those VFR pilots who think that an uncertified EFIS might save them if they accidentally enter IMC, I have a suggestion;

Arrange a flight in an IFR rated and EFIS equipped aircraft with a qualified IFR instructor.

Arrange a VFR flight and under instruction, deliberately simulate accidental entry into IMC.

You might be surprised at the change in your situation, then you need to think about your options.

You might find it’s not as easy and safe as it sounds.

Squawk7700, I was not for one minute suggesting any conspiracy theory. I still say a professional pilot should be able to keep it blue side up and was thinking more of a medical event or equipment failure. I have never had anything to with facebook so I have no idea on what you are rambling on about. For those waxing on about Neil Williams, his accident was CFIT not loss of control, not that the outcome is any different.

By the way, an EFIS screen with water ingestion goes blank.

What is the difference between a certified and uncertified EFIS in your opinion and how would that make any difference? The Dynon Skyview is AFAIK still uncertified, has synthetic vision, terrain alerts, traffic awareness, autopilot availability, approaches and other features. Is this less safe than a certified Avidyne in a Cirrus SR20?

Are you basing your opinion from your flying experience in IFR and IMC conditions, or talk at the aero club bar?

Based on many years of experience I mostly agree with the above - but not always so.
A few years ago I departed Toowoomba on an PVT IFR plan direct to Redcliffe. On calling up Amberley as directed, their expectation was that I would descend to VFR below the steps, and my refusal to do so (I was not convinced that I could maintain VMC) was not well received. My recollection is that I was placed in a holding pattern for 10-15 min and passed to BN Appr who sent me on my merry IFR way to Redcliffe.

Dr

I hope that is a rhetorical question. Certified means it has passed the tests required to be able to say it is safe, non-certified is unknown. If its passed the tests required for the specific operation then it will be reliable for all the situations posed for it in the conditions it could face in that type of flying, and or limitations specified where it will not be 100% reliable. Certification may or may not include installation requirements, that make it more than a dash ornament and integrate with the aircraft systems and pilot ergonomics. Things that come to mind for this type of topic is topple limits for attitude instruments, non certified it could topple in moderate maneuvers making it useless in recovery from unusual attitudes. Therefore its not going to help you recover an aircraft in a UA when thrown in cloud suddenly.

Also to add Binghis' point as to how weather, altitude, heat and so on proof the unit is. Some of the recent uncertified eperimental stuff is fantastic, but saying all new EFIS systems will perform the same is misleading. Some units will have been produced with far superior performance to certified stuff, but not certified to keep cost down, however that means you never quite know why they didn't bother to certify it.

I’m aware of the difference, I’m just wondering how Sunfish came to the conclusion that an uncertified unit won’t get you out of a bind. It makes no sense. We’d better all throw away our $10k Dynons if that’s the case. Plus I’d better let all the IFR guys in their RV’s know that they need to upgrade.

Yeah but simplistically saying EFIS will save you is misleading. There's a few options and some are great, some not so great, depends what is fitted. More important than EFIS if in IMC inadvertently at a safe altitude would be an autopilot of some sort. At low alt sudden IMC around the trees and hills takes quick thinking and a lot of luck to survive, the emphasis on luck, as its been proven the best equipment will still hit the ground hard if you try.

I’ve been saying what you’re saying in all of my above posts and I agree, but I don’t agree with this certified versus uncertified tripe. Give me a Dynon and AP servos and day of the week versus the factory AP from a 1972 Cessna.

Squawk, there is nothing wrong with Dynon Skyview EFIS, quite the reverse, use it me self, there are now certified STC’d versions for a lot of aircraft.

What I am suggesting is that if as a VFR Pilot you want to legally and safely experience what it’s like to experience VMC into IMC, then try it for real with an IFR qualified instructor in a certified EFIS equipped IFR capable aircraft and have the instructor set up a realistic scenario for you.

Foggles don’t cut it and neither does playing with those “180 turn” and “level” buttons on a nice sunny day. Try it for real. If you haven’t experienced it before, then you are in for a hell of a shock, that’s all I need to say.

‘’I am aware of a few RV drivers and others who talk matter of factly about their uncertified IFR exploits. Don’t listen to them.

Wot Duck Pilot said, +1

Especially the PNG bit. Been there, done that, albeit in Bongos and C402's.
Got the soiled jocks to prove it!:eek: Well...not anymore, but you get my drift..

Me too Squawk. Dual Dynons with OzR maps on them, a VHF radio with built in intercom and a KLN-90 for en-route navigation rounds out the RV's panel.

I would never deliberately fly in IMC with my setup - I have a single ADAHRS with no backup as it is strictly VFR only till then, however, I have no problems with trusting it to keep me alive if I do screwup and entry into IMC is the only option. Coupled with OzRunways (and AvPlan too, I believe) you can even have it fly the RNAV approach with the muppet pilot only controlling the vertical portion. With the autopilot modes set to GPS & IAS HOLD and selected altitude set to the Minima you control descent rate with power and then only have to touch the throttle while you contemplate how you are not going to get yourself into this situation again...I have tried this several times to get myself comfortable with it, and it works well.

BUT - as above I am not recommending this as a means for VFR pilots to deliberately fly IMC - only as a means to keep you alive with the systems you have on board if you screwup and find yourself in such a situation. Know your systems and their capabilities and get them in play early in the piece and you stand at least a decent chance of being able to tell someone about your mistake after the fact.

Don't neglect the Startle Factor. If you're scud-running (as some have suggested this guy might have been), it really doesn't matter what gadgetry the aircraft is fitted with nor your knowledge of your systems nor how current (or otherwise) your instrument rating may be - SA is king and the key to your survival will be how fast you admit to yourself that you're now in the soup and mentally get yourself inside the aircraft and keep flying it.

As pointed out upthread, if you're below LSALT in mountains, the odds really aren't on your side - and IMHO, the more electronic data, alarms and flashing lights you're confronted with by your whizz-bang EFIS gadgetry when you finally get around to looking, the longer it's going to take to filter out the important from the less important. In many ways, the simpler the avionics, perhaps the better.. but instinctively pushing the Blue Button isn't going to save you if you're heading, wings level in cloud, for the side of the nearest hill.

We all know how it ends: "TERRAIN! PULL UP!! PULL UP!!!" ...right before the stall. :hmm:

I have thought about the PIFR but the RV's not yet equipped, BE. I did my BFR a few days ago with the CFI in the RV and he was thoroughly impressed with the integration and information available on the Dynon's, from the colour-coded high terrain on the SynVis down to the geo-referenced OzRunways charts to the WiFi flight plan transfer on-the-fly (pardon the horrible pun here).Nailed it, PC. :ok:

That realization and admission of "Oh ****, oh ****, I've stuffed up and now it's real" is a big thing. Denial will kill you. Once you admit to yourself you've done the "VFR into IMC" mistake, you're spot on about your chances of survival. The more you procrastinate about that decision in deteriorating weather, the less time you have to get stable on instruments while you can and start climbing straight ahead to get some terrain clearance and help from ATC.

In part, that's why I've done the practice with my system, to (hopefully) convince me to make that call early in the piece, because I know what I have and what it can do to keep me alive. I often wonder about why many pilots appear fearful of admitting they've made this error - ATC have checklists specifically for VFR-into-IMC and will always go above and beyond to get you home in one piece if you tell 'em!

True that, KR. I suspect having expensive passengers on board (with family generally being the most expensive) only adds to the fear.. and the resulting delay.

An admission from me: I've trained on both glass and steam and kinda prefer steam... Why? Because it doesn't scream at me when something breaks. I know that already, because when it happens my front seat pax is already screaming at me! Aviate, first - everything else second. The pax I can silence, but have you ever tried to silence the alarm on your EFIS in the middle of an emergency? You haven't really done the practice with your system until you've incorporated the sound of the alarm going off - multiple times - each time you silence it. After all, it's not going to go off unless it's an emergency.

Stay safe up there! :)


Edit to add: Alternator Failure is a good one to use for alarm practice.
As a tiny aside, I discovered during a long VFR nav a while back with one of my instructors on board and no cloud to worry about, that the '30 minute minimum' ship's battery duration indicated in the POH, whilst great in the USA, may not be all that helpful down under where airports can be quite a distance away. We were an hour out from YMMB when I had an alternator failure for real. After silencing the initial alarm, and the subsequent 'low bus volts' one, over the next 1/2 hour or so we lost the PFD, then MFD, then radios in the YMMB circuit and finally the transponder after touchdown. The standby instruments and green light from the tower all worked just fine and was good practice ...but trying to work out how to shut the bloody alarm off on the Avidyne was harder than you'd think!

over the next 1/2 hour or so we lost the PFD, then MFD, then radios in the YMMB circuit and finally the transponder after touchdown.

Hence the critical importance of load shedding at the earliest opportunity, keeping only that which is absolutely essential for the extant circumstances. It's a bit like the air above and the runway behind ... once the amp hours have gone, they can't be prayed back into the system at the time regardless of whichever god to whom you might choose to pray. A real worry are some of the insidious failures which can occur without quite enough alerting to the pilot ...

Day VMC ... ho-hum, perhaps a quick radio call to advise situation and intent and then turn it all off .... dark night IMC .... oh dear. It is to emphasise this concern that we routinely practice flight on standby in sim exercises. There, it all goes black at the appointed time and I am talking about REALLY black. Captain Training only needs one exposure to get the story well and truly fixed in the mind for the next time around. Having said that, generally one can cobble together a recovery in the majority of circumstances providing we can leave the panic thing at home. Might be a tad sweaty at the time.

Sounds like fun! :eek: ...but you're quite right there - and being Day VMC for me it was indeed ho-hum, with the instructor calling the tower on the phone and then a quick call on radio closer in (while we could).

The real eye-openers for me that day were:
(a) Unless you're willing to shut down your fancy power-hungry PFD&MFD and go straight to standby instruments, the ship's batteries never last as long as you think they will!, and
(b) QF32 Syndrome (constantly acknowledging alarms as you lose various parts of your system) adds quite a bit to the workload of an average GA pilot. Better hope you're not scud-running in marginal weather over tiger country at the time, looking for a safe place to put down.

A bit of a worry back in the 'old'days but today, with all the modern technology, not so much!
Portable GPS, iPad, hand held VHF, mobile phone, a couple of torches - good to go!

Squawk 7700

reference the guy flying to Benambra. Did ya ever think maybe the Sale airspace may have been chokers with Pc21s doing random manoeuvres laterally and vertically in their airspace. Are they supposed to tell all the PC 21 s, in THEIR airspace, get out of the way, lightie coming thru

A bit of a worry back in the 'old'days but today, with all the modern technology, not so much! Portable GPS, iPad, hand held VHF, mobile phone, a couple of torches - good to go!

.. now, do tell us how that all works when you are out there at 0-dark-30, the main (ship's) battery is dead, whatever standby batteries are dead, and the panel likewise ? I would have thought still much the same sort of worry as in days of yore ? I don't see any reference in your list to flight instruments ? Let's see, the portable GPS will tell you where you are about to die, I guess you can play a quick game of whatever on the iPad, the handheld lets you tell someone that you are about to die, likewise the phone, and the torches will let you see the dead panel in glorious candlelight until you die .....

Or did I miss something along the way, there ?

I've done plenty of limited panel, quite successfully, but never no panel.

It was a Friday morning and they were not flying. They were not operating on any of the 4 frequencies that I was monitoring, not on OzRunways, AvPlan, ADSB-IN or FR24. Safe to say that they were not operating and I of course took that into considering before making above comments.

As a matter of interest, for giggles it’s worth checking how the PC21’s operate down that way if you’re considering going over there. You’ll notice that they will operate as a single aircraft in each of the training zones, Maffra, Jack Smith’s Lake and Paynesville are the most common areas.

Of course, I got my clearance, so it can’t have been chockers.

I think you make light of the capability available in a Garmin portable GPS and an iPhone/iPad. Both will give you a moving map or flight instruments, the former with terrain warning!
Not sure how I am going to lose everything in an electrical failure (I have had two - one VFR in a C210 and the other IFR in IMC in a Bonanza), which I believe was the senario referred to, unless the panel is all electric. Personally I wouldn't fly in such a aircraft in anything other than 8/8 blue sky without independent battery powered AH and GPS - doesn't meet my risk profile!

Noone goes to work or goes flying meaning to make a mistake.
This pilot was much more experienced than the majority in the country. If this can happen to him, it could happen to many.
Hopefully we can use this event as a learning event.
Sh@t does happen.
Think about how the pilot was feeling in those last minutes. Make a plan on how you can avoid that. That's what's important.
i promise you he did his best.

That would not fly (pardon the pun) with the general public. Do you think Alan Joyce could simply say “sh1t does happen” after the loss of 737? The travelling fare paying public expect to board an aircraft and safely arrive at their destination and they equally expect the pilot(s) to be qualified, experienced and to fly in accordance with the required regulations. Professional pilots, be it in an A380 or Cessna 172 owe it to their passengers to get them there safely and if required, turn back.

Qantas flew / fly to Mount Hotham and regularly turned back in their Dash 8 due to weather and bus the passengers to the mountain via Albury or similar. It is what it is. They don’t have get-there-itis. Not suggesting that what happened here, just observations in general.

I feel self embarrassment when I fly solo and scud run to a point that makes me uncomfortable and have to turn back with zero options. I can’t even contemplate doing that with a passenger, as in, getting to that position in the first place as it’s not fair on them.

During my second last AFR we headed towards bad weather through low clouds and hills. I told the instructor that I was “calling it” in terms of the AFR and the rules for VFR (my personal minimums were a bit lower though) and wanted to head back. She said it was still fine and not to worry and to continue on. I slowed right down and extended the flaps We got to a point where an abrupt 180 was required and she said that she didn’t realise it was going to get that bad and I was lucky I was going slowly. Basically, I let her convince me that it was fine to continue. I was quietly very annoyed at her and myself afterwards. I wasn’t overly concerned as I knew I could power up, hit the instruments and head home, however others may not have had that option available to them.

I’m not exactly sure as to the moral of my story, other than to say that there are cowboys (and girls) out there propagating this type of behaviour.

So the instructor got caught out as well. Doesn’t make them a cowboy (or girl).
What did you talk about during the debrief afterwards?

I think you make light of the capability available in a Garmin portable GPS and an iPhone/iPad.

Having no exposure to either, I quite happily accept that they will do lots of useful and nice things.

Both will give you a moving map or flight instruments,

The map is fine, but tell me a bit more about the flight instruments. In particular, have you ever flown, under the hood, with all the aircraft instruments covered up, and then use, solely - as in nothing else, the portable flight instrument representation to maintain flight for an extended period of time ? That's the real world test and, if it doesn't work, where might that leave you in the event ..... ?

Not sure how I am going to lose everything in an electrical failure ... unless the panel is all electric.

In the typical heavy, when the ship's electrickery quits, you are back on the standby flight instruments ... until their batteries also quit .... then you are in the well-known situation of PYHBYLAKYAG. ANY sensible installation will have a similar arrangement, I suggest, as a (now retired) design signatory of many years' standing.

If you have some suck and blow flight instruments, that might be a saving grace, so long as you are not tangled up in icing conditions.

without independent battery powered AH and GPS

Usually, you would have standby power supplies to the emergency flight instruments ... but that only lasts for a while ....

I'm not trying to be a PITA here but, having a lot of IMC, night, and IFR flying in my history, this is a rather important consideration to follow through. It is my thought that many folks, not having tried their backup plans out in REALISTIC anger, may have unrealistic expectations of what is what ?

She said it was still fine and not to worry and to continue on

That's when you, as Captain Speaking and having just made the call, put it into action and turn around. I can still recall, as a young and newchum airline F/O, flying RM with the Type boss up to the property. I made some comment and was told, quite politely but firmly, "not even worth thinking about". That was, I suggest, the call you might make next time you find yourself in a like situation. The instructor was, no doubt, trying to achieve a training aim. That she made an unsatisfactory call is a problem but, I suggest, the main problem was sitting in your seat at the time. Again, as another anecdote, flying as a pretty senior B737 F/O, the captain, who was a mate of mind, made an observation to which I offered "you don't miss much". His response has always stayed with me - "I'm not allowed to". Same philosophy applies to bugsmashers as to airliners ?

Basically, I let her convince me that it was fine to continue.

Suckerbait stuff, that is.

Yes, I did let her convince me, but deep down I wasn’t worried as I knew I had a suitable out and was more than capable on executing on it. I guess you put faith in the instructor, however they are only human. In hindsight I probably have 3 times as many hours as her and my decision making is probably a little more finely tuned.

The debrief consisted of her telling me that in hindsight we should have turned around sooner. I hope she learnt something from that day. I did too - however what if she thinks she is right too? It was my aircraft and my life. I should have seen the writing on the wall when she started posting selfies on her Instagram during the flight.

I also learnt a valuable lesson on my next AFR. I asked if we could head to the designated low flying training area and fly under some powerlines. The highly experienced instructor said that he didn’t think it was a good idea in my aircraft to do so given the wind conditions as my aircraft has a long wing. So we went over there anyway, but went well above the powerlines. When turning downwind near the powerline at 110+ knots, we got hit by a gust and and it rolled us to 45+ degrees and it would not respond to opposite control input. A combination of opposite rudder and backstick recovered the wing and we were good to go again after some puckering. Lesson there, you don’t get that level of experience by accident.

That’s why I value my AFR’s and always have.

Really? Some thing crop dusters do, but others!!!!

The aircraft doesn’t know it’s under power lines.

JT, I am aware of your background from the 'old Pprune'!
While not wishing to preempt the ATSB conclusions on this accident, I have my personal views based on 50 yrs of GA flying in Australia and New Zealand - mostly PVT/work related flying both VFR and IFR in SE aircraft, but also some IFR charter work in both countries.
I also have a personal connection to the pax on this flight, which has stirred me up to question, yet again, why these types of accidents keep happening.
My first experience of the fallout from this type of accident was soon after I got my PPL - a young bloke who learnt to fly with me was lost, along with his wife and a child on a flight from Archerfield to Bankstown.
Like many (most?) with a substantial experience background, I have put myself in life-threatening VFR into IMC situations on a number of occasions in the early days of my flying career, never with pax (although on one occasion in NZ my pax was a bloke in a coffin!), and the fact that I am writing this attests to the fact that I survived to tell the tale - by a combination of good training, quick descision making and LUCK!
As a low-time VFR PPL I descended into a layer of cloud that I 'knew' to be only a couple of hundred feet thick - it wasn't! I descended to 1000' about the highest point in the area - then climbed back out, turned back to the edge of the cloud bank and tried to get under it - I couldn't - before returning to my departure point.
By the time I had a few thousand hours, a CPL and IR, I could 'scud run' with the best! One day while trying to get to a cattle station in an area I thought I knew well, I flew down a road at low level just below the cloud base only to find myself in cloud. I immediately climbed and turned left and returned to my departure point. Some time later I discovered that had I turned right I most likely would have impacted a high phone tower I had forgotten about. That ended my scud running days!

The map is fine, but tell me a bit more about the flight instruments. In particular, have you ever flown, under the hood, with all the aircraft instruments covered up, and then use, solely - as in nothing else, the portable flight instrument representation to maintain flight for an extended period of time ? That's the real world test and, if it doesn't work, where might that leave you in the event ..... ?
Yes, I have! I have flown down the Hinchinbrook Channel under the hood at 500' with a safety pilot with reference to only GPS/accelerometer based 'flight instruments' on an iPad and a moving map with terrain warning on a Garmin portable GPS.

In the typical heavy, when the ship's electrickery quits, you are back on the standby flight instruments ... until their batteries also quit .... then you are in the well-known situation of PYHBYLAKYAG. ANY sensible installation will have a similar arrangement,
If fully charged at the outset, an iPad and a portable GPS should give you time to save your skin!

I'm not trying to be a PITA here but, having a lot of IMC, night, and IFR flying in my history, this is a rather important consideration to follow through. It is my thought that many folks, not having tried their backup plans out in REALISTIC anger, may have unrealistic expectations of what is what ?
My experience may not match yours in quantum but its reasonable for someone for whom flying was never a primary job, and interesting in its variety - from cattle mustering and glider/banner towing to quite a bit of single engine day/night IFR.

I am not advocating the routine use of portable electronic gadgets to justify pushing one's luck with weather, but the suggestion was that if you lose all of your panel in an EFIS cockpit you are going to die. Not if you are prepared and have thought the senario through.

The best preventative measures for what I believe is likely to be the cause of this accident and other like it are:

1. Good training and currency
2. Good preparation, including backup equipment and a quickly activated plan in your head for various circumstances that may arise
3. A mental firewall against 'got-to-get-there-itis'
4. Good in-flight decision making
5. Always listen to that little voice in the back of your head when it says, "I don't like the look of this"!

Not having played with any of the new toys, I have to take your comments without any critical test. I would, very much, like to see just what the story is, though, in anger. Thinking back to my early days and a few frights along the way ...

Certainly have to concur with your thoughts that preparation and knowledge go a long way to setting one up for a successful outcome ... providing there is a reasonable amount of practice in there, as well ... along with a healthy dosage of conservatism.

Having quite a bit of experience with GPS I have witnessed (and reported) on its failures. Its not a fool proof system, and one has to remember that TAWS is just a picture that represents a map of the area around your GPS calculated position. While GPS is accurate 99.99% of the time, certain installations will occasionally interpret that position badly or not tell you particularly well when its dropped out of 'GPS' mode, or fallen back to DR mode. I've been in an airliner using GNSS when the FMS system suddenly gave us a position alert for being 7 miles off calculated track, the GPS had disconnected due to lack of satellites (it could see) and it was using the local VOR to tell us the error. How it got to 7nm before telling us, and how ATS didn't pick it up either is a mystery, reported and moved on. However at Flight levels so no nasty hills around to ruin the day. If you are relying on the system to navigate hills without the system being in 'approach' mode where it does certain checks to ensure tracking integrity you might be surprised when both the hill pops up suddenly and the TAWS says its somewhere left of you. This is why TSO installations of GPS for IFR use is essential, as the annunciators for GPS/FMS failures are included to be in the pilots eyesight if a system drops RAIM or reverts to DR.

PS I've used IPADs for IFR flight bags and while the position is usually accurate, I have seen the plane icon do circles at times when it struggles with direction, so while I trust its derived navigation plot for roundabout navigation purposes, I don't really like its chances of continually providing attitude and heading information with the fidelity to stay upright for a length of time, and I definitely would not be navigating valleys below LSALT with it. Remember that GPS units need to see satellites, at low level below ridge height you could be masking some sats normally in view, and in the southern hemisphere you usually don't have heaps of spare sats.

43", my experience over the past 25+ yrs does not align with your comments. Not that I am suggesting that you are incorrect, just that my personal experience with Sony Pixus, Garmin Pilot III, Garmin 296/396/496, Garmin 250XL, Garmin 430W/530W, flying all over Oz, differs. It has always amazed me just how accurate these things are. I have only seen the G430 in the Bonanza go into DR mode once for a few minutes in 800 hrs, and I currently have 10 satellites on the Humminbird chartplotter sitting on my office desk in Townsville, without it having a clear view of the sky. The GPS tracker in my boat is hidden under the deck and can't 'see' the sky at all - but it still sends its position accurate to a couple of meters.

I am NOT advocating the routine use of handheld GPSs or iPhone/iPad as anything other than backup - but when you have screwed up and your life is on the line, I would not hesitate to take my chances that one could save my skin!

It sure knows when you hit them, as will you. Have my own wire story, flew THROUGH them and avoided touching any, above or below, all luck and no judgement involved. Making a bald statement such as yours does not send a good message to the community, wires surveyed from the ground previously, low flying authorisation etc. For those who think low flying is something to be flagrantly indulged.https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/573804...4131_final.pdf

There's gotta be a story behind this, care to share the details?

I fly for a living using GPS so a lot of hours navigating by it, while its 99.9% foolproof I've had several missed approaches due to no RAIM at the FAF or past it, and several events where the GPS navigation solution became suspect and was confirmed off track. Some of the events were unit related and others satellite or atmospheric related. Ice on the GPS antenna can affect it as well as moisture in the wrong places. It is not regular, but it does happen. This is where installation type really can make a difference. The key being what information is displayed if the navigation unit is operating in a degraded mode, and when will it tell you so. For instance in a TSO unit will not allow operation in approach mode without RAIM, so it will dump flight guidance and make it clear you don't have the required fidelity.

This talk about trusting the unit when low among hills without having RAIM protection shows a lack of understanding of the drawbacks of GPS, like any other navaid.

The iPad as far as I know does not tell you if it has good/bad or no GPS signal.

This is also the issue with creating your own approaches in IMC, without the required programming it will most likely fly in terminal or en-route mode, which means different tolerances, alerting and RAIM requirements.

I’ll reiterate that the aircraft doesn’t know of the existence of powerlines, nor does it know it’s flying over water. My flight was 100% legitimate, legal and endorsed. My comments were regarding human factors and experience, just like this whole thread.