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Originally Posted by Trevor the lover
(Post 10580518)
... just what is a bush pilot now? Is remote area flying really remote area flying when a coupled up GPS takes you to within 3 meters of some Kimberley dirts strip.
These things help to keep them safe and makes their operations more efficient. Amazing enhancements to situational awareness. Don’t anyone start with ‘its too distracting they forget the basics blah blah blah...’ there are plenty of good pilots out there using this stuff. You’d be a bad pilot if you didn’t. I bet their wizz wheel forefathers would’ve put an iPad in their flight bag if it had been available to them. Young pilots find it hard to stick it out in GA with bad pay and dodgy employers for enough time to make RFDS minimums. In the meantime airlines often offer a quicker path to stable employment. |
Back in the old days progression into the airlines was harder and the RFDS was a good option for a pilot who had served his bush apprenticeship but missed out on QF/Ansett/TAA. It was a more secure and better paid option then charter or night freight. Due to the poor conditions in GA, it wasn't difficult for the RFDS to offer a better deal. A stable job with an employer who wouldn't go bust was a big attraction for an older pilot with a family and a mortgage.
These days GA is drying up and new pilots are spending far less time up north and out west before moving on to a better job. Even good employers are having difficulty in attracting and retaining the sort of pilots they want, the bad ones who previously got away with paying below the award just get laughed at. The pool that the RFDS previously looked to recruit from has shrunk, they aren't competing with third level operators for pilots now and need to improve the package. |
Originally Posted by rcoight
(Post 10580717)
Good question. It certainly sounds like management / accountant speak. |
I wonder if when the wizz wheel was introduced people decried its use as only by those who could not handle a little real arithmetic and hence were not as good in the arcane art of piloting an infernal device from one place to another.
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The doctors are pretty good at curing pilots of their aviation sickness. Would recommend it.
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Originally Posted by sdielectrical
(Post 10584795)
The doctors are pretty good at curing pilots of their aviation sickness. Would recommend it.
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Originally Posted by rcoight
(Post 10584879)
What is that supposed to mean? Only 9 months have passed but I will never look back. I have no class 1, no IPC, no ASIC. Things couldn't be better. The RFDS has a lot of problems but they are their problems, not mine. Interestingly, soon after I left 2 more pilots left from the same base. They both went back to their old jobs. "The best job in GA" , well maybe. That is for the individual to decide. A year with the RFDS cured me of my aviation sickness (or addiction) |
Originally Posted by sdielectrical
(Post 10587720)
A year working for the RFDS was a good experience, but it changed me and by the end of it I no longer had any desire to fly commercially ever again. I went back to my old job (non aviation) and now I have a much better life and so many more prospects and opportunities. I no longer have to deal with all the negative things about commercial aviation in Australia and I no longer have to worry about putting food on the table and being able to leave something for my kids.
Only 9 months have passed but I will never look back. I have no class 1, no IPC, no ASIC. Things couldn't be better. The RFDS has a lot of problems but they are their problems, not mine. Interestingly, soon after I left 2 more pilots left from the same base. They both went back to their old jobs. "The best job in GA" , well maybe. That is for the individual to decide. A year with the RFDS cured me of my aviation sickness (or addiction) https://www.pprune.org/pacific-gener...t=RFDS+central |
A year with the RFDS cured me of my aviation sickness (or addiction) |
Originally Posted by kingRB
(Post 10588247)
yet here you are, on a pilots forum.
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Hi, I've been overseas for a while and returning to Aus in the near future.
I would appreciate any direction on the RFDS interview. |
Hi Everyone,
My post recently was one of a general experience in aviation but I would like to clarify now that I have had many jobs and the 1 year I worked for the RFDS South Eastern Section was the worst job I have had in my life. I have been fortunate to work for some fantastic individuals who have helped me progress in the industry and trusted me with their machines, their livelihoods and their reputations. Many of these jobs I have had have been very low paid financially. The RFDS job was a higher paying job, but I paid a much higher price with the way I was treated. When I compare back to the early days there is no comparison for me. Chalk and Cheese. If something ever happened to me one day whilst I was on the clock for the RFDS I know just how shafted I would be. It is not a comfortable situation to be in. After 6 months in the job I told them to get stuffed and gave them 6 months notice. They left me alone for 6 months and I walked out the door on the last day my instrument rating was valid. It is a small industry and mates look after each other. Don't go and work for these clowns. I used to donate money to the RFDS. I could not bring myself to do that anymore. Very disappointing. You have been warned. If anyone would like information please PM me. I am not on here very often so please be patient with replies Cheers |
Originally Posted by Lt DAN
(Post 10589169)
moving to places like Meekatharra and Kalgoorlie etc to fly single engine turbine with the experience that RFDS are chasing is becoming harder to justify. Most guys with that time have already done the country stint and it would be a backward step career wise. HR types and insurance companies are still all about ME time. Jets aren’t for everyone but living in those towns isn’t for many either Meekatharra, population just over 1000, high crime rate, 2 pubs, 1 supermarket. Not much to do, and a long drive to Geraldton or Perth to get to the coast. Kalgoorlie, population over 30 000, plenty of places to eat out, good sporting facilities, 4 hours from Esperance, 6 from Perth. It's basically an inland city, without all the traffic and hassles of Perth. I lived in Kal for 15 years and had a great time. The town does go through its ups and downs, according to the mining cycle, but it's still a great place to live. Oh, and don't believe all that BS on Kalgoorlie Cops! In Westops, Kal was usually the second favourite base, after JT. Broome has probably secured that spot now. |
Originally Posted by sdielectrical
(Post 10603040)
Hi Everyone,
My post recently was one of a general experience in aviation but I would like to clarify now that I have had many jobs and the 1 year I worked for the RFDS South Eastern Section was the worst job I have had in my life. I have been fortunate to work for some fantastic individuals who have helped me progress in the industry and trusted me with their machines, their livelihoods and their reputations. Many of these jobs I have had have been very low paid financially. The RFDS job was a higher paying job, but I paid a much higher price with the way I was treated. When I compare back to the early days there is no comparison for me. Chalk and Cheese. If something ever happened to me one day whilst I was on the clock for the RFDS I know just how shafted I would be. It is not a comfortable situation to be in. After 6 months in the job I told them to get stuffed and gave them 6 months notice. They left me alone for 6 months and I walked out the door on the last day my instrument rating was valid. It is a small industry and mates look after each other. Don't go and work for these clowns. I used to donate money to the RFDS. I could not bring myself to do that anymore. Very disappointing. You have been warned. If anyone would like information please PM me. I am not on here very often so please be patient with replies Cheers |
Originally Posted by morno
(Post 10610313)
Why do I get the feel that there’s more to this story that you’re not letting on about.....? |
Originally Posted by morno
(Post 10610313)
Why do I get the feel that there’s more to this story that you’re not letting on about.....? |
Originally Posted by The Butcher's Dog
(Post 10610776)
Has to be, that's a very short length of tenure for that kind of job. Not for everyone I guess..............
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Snake bite brings up Careflight NT pilot shortage comment
https://www.katherinetimes.com.au/st...-tape/?cs=1459 |
Originally Posted by morno
(Post 10610313)
Why do I get the feel that there’s more to this story that you’re not letting on about.....? I ask you WHY do the RFDS allegedly have a problem employing and then retaining pilots for their operation? 130 or so earlier posters have gone back and forth on this topic, most of whom probably have no idea of what it's like to work for the RFDS TODAY. Then a fairly recent past-employee posts about the experience and you and a couple of others are happy to suggest that there is something relevant he/she is not telling us. I would have thought that the post in question makes it clear that there was a personality clash, but you want to imply there was something more sinister at play. After all, who wouldn't want to work for the RFDS because "a few mates reckon it was the best job they ever had", really, when was that and how irrelevant is that? There is also a current employee posting, trying to tell us of how it is TODAY, mostly in negative terms, but no he/she is considered a malcontent who "wants it all" If you know something, I for one would like to hear about it. |
Déjà Vu, I know several people who currently work for that section and I definitely do not hear comments like that about working there. In fact the comments are so far from that posted by the previous poster that it does make me wonder if maybe there was something else at play that isn’t being told. What was possibly so bad that they were left tainted forever? I know some people may not always enjoy working for particular companies, but what could possibly happen that they would get onto a public forum and bash them to that extent? I have several years of working for one of the sections of the RFDS, but it probably wasn’t recent enough that I could give any valid commentary on their current retention problems. However, aviation in Australia*as a whole is also very different than what it was 10-15 years ago. There’s a different generation of pilots who just want to skip over all that GA stuff and move straight to a jet. Most of these will never return back to GA and fill roles in companies like the RFDS. Also, at least when I worked there, the job is not the same as it was 20+ years ago, when people were happy to retire in that job. It was a busy, hard job. Sure you got lots of days off generally, but when you were at work, the duties were often 12+ hours, and the additional tasks you carry out just helps add to that fatigue. There’s a lot of night flying, most years I was there, at least 50-55% of my yearly total was night hours. Flying part of it aside, yes there was some administrative changes over the whole organisation that probably made it less of that friendly company it was 20+ years ago, but I certainly wouldn’t say that I despised them to the point of getting on here and bashing the **** out of them. |
Originally Posted by morno
(Post 10611836)
Déjà Vu, I know several people who currently work for that section and I definitely do not hear comments like that about working there. In fact the comments are so far from that posted by the previous poster that it does make me wonder if maybe there was something else at play that isn’t being told. What was possibly so bad that they were left tainted forever? I know some people may not always enjoy working for particular companies, but what could possibly happen that they would get onto a public forum and bash them to that extent? I have several years of working for one of the sections of the RFDS, but it probably wasn’t recent enough that I could give any valid commentary on their current retention problems. However, aviation in Australia*as a whole is also very different than what it was 10-15 years ago. There’s a different generation of pilots who just want to skip over all that GA stuff and move straight to a jet. Most of these will never return back to GA and fill roles in companies like the RFDS. Also, at least when I worked there, the job is not the same as it was 20+ years ago, when people were happy to retire in that job. It was a busy, hard job. Sure you got lots of days off generally, but when you were at work, the duties were often 12+ hours, and the additional tasks you carry out just helps add to that fatigue. There’s a lot of night flying, most years I was there, at least 50-55% of my yearly total was night hours. Flying part of it aside, yes there was some administrative changes over the whole organisation that probably made it less of that friendly company it was 20+ years ago, but I certainly wouldn’t say that I despised them to the point of getting on here and bashing the **** out of them. well said Morno -:) |
Originally Posted by morno
(Post 10611836)
Déjà Vu, I know several people who currently work for that section and I definitely do not hear comments like that about working there. In fact the comments are so far from that posted by the previous poster that it does make me wonder if maybe there was something else at play that isn’t being told. What was possibly so bad that they were left tainted forever? I know some people may not always enjoy working for particular companies, but what could possibly happen that they would get onto a public forum and bash them to that extent? I have several years of working for one of the sections of the RFDS, but it probably wasn’t recent enough that I could give any valid commentary on their current retention problems. However, aviation in Australia*as a whole is also very different than what it was 10-15 years ago. There’s a different generation of pilots who just want to skip over all that GA stuff and move straight to a jet. Most of these will never return back to GA and fill roles in companies like the RFDS. Also, at least when I worked there, the job is not the same as it was 20+ years ago, when people were happy to retire in that job. It was a busy, hard job. Sure you got lots of days off generally, but when you were at work, the duties were often 12+ hours, and the additional tasks you carry out just helps add to that fatigue. There’s a lot of night flying, most years I was there, at least 50-55% of my yearly total was night hours. Flying part of it aside, yes there was some administrative changes over the whole organisation that probably made it less of that friendly company it was 20+ years ago, but I certainly wouldn’t say that I despised them to the point of getting on here and bashing the **** out of them. |
Originally Posted by Alice Kiwican
(Post 10612130)
Yes what he said 👍😀 |
Must have had a bad experience with a flight nurse!
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So much back and forth on this debate and so much right on both sides.
As a pilot that's done both... I'll err on the side of saying the RFDS job is slightly less technically demanding. (Perhaps just because you're left to do things your own way within the realm of SOPs) The skills required, whilst very specialised, aren't beyond most pilots. Its just about exposure. Conversely, airline ops aren't beyond most RFDS pilots or those of other backgrounds. You don't go into the RFDS as an expert in the field. You learn as you go, just like anywhere else. Retention though. This is key. They need to pay somewhere between airline FO and airline Captain, which currently doesn't seem to be the case. I find airline duties more demanding, the flying more demanding, etc., but we get a lot more days off and better pay to compensate. The RFDS was more emotionally demanding, without a doubt. But also very, very rewarding. But, the level of responsibility. Id go back to the RFDS any day, but the pay cut is unswallowable, even as an airline FO. |
I see it as a trade off between $$ vs fulfilment (lifestyle). The answer is different for every person. Supply and demand will eventually drive the price (in this case, Salary). With airlines recruiting heavily, I really do feel for worthy causes like the RFDS. They provide a vital service to those in our big country. By our nature, I feel a lot of pilots are highly motivated and goal driven (I feel that if you aren’t when you start, you tend to become such after a few years!). An airline (Jet) command in Australia is seen by a lot of people as the pinnacle. Once you’ve achieved that, the job becomes one of managing work/life balance and doing so for the most amount of $$. Perhaps then, fulfilment starts to diminish (the rate might depend on the size of your mortgage!). We all look back at how rewarding GA flying can be but very few willing to take the risks with that move... I would implore anyone to seek employment with RFDS. Take away the industrial agreement considerations, at its roots, a wonderful function, founded by some history-making, famous Australians which helps people in need. |
Originally Posted by dontgive2FACs
(Post 10614337)
I see it as a trade off between $$ vs fulfilment (lifestyle). The answer is different for every person. Supply and demand will eventually drive the price (in this case, Salary). With airlines recruiting heavily, I really do feel for worthy causes like the RFDS. They provide a vital service to those in our big country. By our nature, I feel a lot of pilots are highly motivated and goal driven (I feel that if you aren’t when you start, you tend to become such after a few years!). An airline (Jet) command in Australia is seen by a lot of people as the pinnacle. Once you’ve achieved that, the job becomes one of managing work/life balance and doing so for the most amount of $$. Perhaps then, fulfilment starts to diminish (the rate might depend on the size of your mortgage!). We all look back at how rewarding GA flying can be but very few willing to take the risks with that move... I would implore anyone to seek employment with RFDS. Take away the industrial agreement considerations, at its roots, a wonderful function, founded by some history-making, famous Australians which helps people in need. The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good. So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect. |
Originally Posted by deja vu
(Post 10615079)
Agree pretty much 100% with your view. Everyone recognises the contribution of the very worthy RFDS.
The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good. So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect. |
Originally Posted by deja vu
(Post 10615079)
Agree pretty much 100% with your view. Everyone recognises the contribution of the very worthy RFDS.
The reality is though generally a pilot gets one go at this career, what seems fine when your 35 is not the same as when you are 55. As much as s/he may love the job the average person with a family can't knock back an additional 50-100K/year while it is potentially on offer, there are some however that are happy as they are and that's good. So the RFDS should expect to be just another stepping stone through the GA ranks unless they address this issue. Judging by the vacancies advertised for the RFDS there doesn't seem to be a matter of urgent pilot shortage and this makes the whole story a little suspect. |
Originally Posted by KRviator
(Post 10572857)
AS a train driver I can endorse your philosophy. I gave up flying for a career 13 years ago and have never looked back. Suburban guys, particularly in Brisbane and Melbourne are quite well paid notwithstanding the roster.
Freight drivers - depending on company and depot - can earn well over $140K and if you go to one of the Pilbara operators you can take home north of $200K easily, particularly if you are employed as a residential driver there, though FIFO employees are on much less. I now work a 2 week on, 4 week off roster and gross around $110K but that was my choice to go part-time. On a 2 on, 2 off FIFO roster, that was around $165K give or take, though a good mate has just left for another company and is on $210K as a casual Driver. We still have Cat1 medicals to comply with, though that is essentially the equivalent of an aviation Class 1, with a few things omitted, and I know of quite a few guys who have struggled to pass that with the more stringent criteria imposed recently, mostly stress testing or sleep related. To earn the sort of coin though, you are up at all hours, can have your shift changed at the drop of a hat +2 hours or -4 hours, many depots operate "blank line" or "pencil" rosters, where you know your RDO's and that is it. You don't find out what you're doing tomorrow until you sign off today, though the Suburban drivers have a fixed roster and can swap jobs/days with other volunteers to suit their own needs. Knowing what I know now would I ever go back to flying as a career? RFDS, perhaps, but I don't have the experience to qualify, but beyond that, not a bloody chance... I fly for fun now, when I want, where I want and I don't have to deal with security going to work every shift...:mad: |
Originally Posted by jnvivier
(Post 10660567)
How did you get started with Freight driving? Asking for a friend...
Off the top of my head, once you've done your training in the classroom and are qualified to go out as a Driver's Assistant/Fireman/Observer/Second Person, you should be on around $60K, depending on the company. Classroom training will be around 3-4 weeks depending on company and another week or two to qualify as a DA. Qualified driver's, depending on company and depot, will be on between $110-190K. To get qualified as a Driver, from off the street, will take 12-24 months depending on company needs. The blokes that do the "relay working" (sleeping in a crew car as the train travels with the 2nd crew on the loco) out of Adelaide to Perth & Darwin are at the upper end of that salary range. Queensland Coal Driver's around the middle and general freight are in the bottom third or so - but overtime can boost that significantly. Time spent away from home adds up too with various allowances. A word of warning: There is shiftwork, then there is railway shiftwork. It isn't "Oh, I've got 0400's all next week". Trains run early, late or are cancelled altogether. Fatigue can be a huge factor depending how far you have to drive for work and if you don't make an conscious effort to keep fit, you will find yourself struggling to pass the medicals as you age, it is a very sedentary job. That being said, I've been doing it for 14 years and I wouldn't do anything else - flying included. |
Are you able to fly for an airline like Cobham for example or QLink and do part time flying for the RFDS as well? If so what would a part time RFDS pilot be paid approximately?
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Originally Posted by TinFoilhat2
(Post 10990490)
Are you able to fly for an airline like Cobham for example or QLink and do part time flying for the RFDS as well? If so what would a part time RFDS pilot be paid approximately?
Even if someone is on leave without pay, I highly doubt RFDS would hire them for they will only disappear when things improve. If they were a regular line pilot absolutely not. Got to the backyard and play while the grown ups talk. |
Do not know where you folks are getting your info but here is the actual RFDS Qld numbers
Aeromedical Pilot: Base Rate effective 1 July 2018 $119,946.52 increases per year x WPI to and including 2021 Retention Tiers - In addition to the Role Base Rate applicable to the Employee's classification, the Employee will receive the Retention Loading for completion of 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 years' Continuous Service with the Employer, as set out in the table below: 2 years 4% 4 years 11% 6 years 12% 8 years 13% 10 years 14% Additional allowances for Remote Area $10k gratuity, ~$10k accommodation, Refuelling allowance ca $900, LoL $2K, and vehicle allowances. Superannuation at 12.5%, 6 weeks annual leave, personal leave, study leave, URTI leave, annual medical expenses, Salary Packaging to GUV $30K, FRMS approved roster so basically 2 days, 1-2 nights, Grey day and 4 days off. Far above the Award and actually pretty good on any terms of comparison. |
To navigate toward the Thread title a little, I'm not sure if they're indeed feeling the pinch, no I've not got the experience of a 20 year captain or even a 10 year Captain, but I meet all their requirements and some and still never received any sort of response.
The RFDS in my eyes has always been the pinnacle of flying. I delved very lightly in the airline world but most of my time is GA and I've heard of them interviewing Instructors with no charter background- which I find both infuriating and sad- hopefully not true. They've recently just put up a relieving pilots add based in WA and hopefully their, "pilot Shortage" will figure it's self out. Stay safe and happy guys! |
Is there any updates about the current conditions at RFDS QLD? Surely they are hemorrhaging pilots like most operators.
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Not good. 4 pilots have resigned for the airlines in the last couple of weeks. Pilot cohort down 25% across the state with more hurt coming.
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Any advice from current or recently left RFDS crew regarding recruitment, conditions and lifestyle at WA, Central or Qld sections? There are job ads every other week!!
Are many pilots recruited by Qld section with less than advertised minimums? Understandably complex operation so not questioning the need for experience however with the incessant ads surely Qld section must be taking lower hour crew for prolonged ICUS? Curious if the Qld RAMP program has got many takers as well? Yes, more questions than answers for the gallery. |
Originally Posted by Prattnwho
(Post 11623599)
Any advice from current or recently left RFDS crew regarding recruitment, conditions and lifestyle at WA, Central or Qld sections? There are job ads every other week!!
Are many pilots recruited by Qld section with less than advertised minimums? Understandably complex operation so not questioning the need for experience however with the incessant ads surely Qld section must be taking lower hour crew for prolonged ICUS? Curious if the Qld RAMP program has got many takers as well? Yes, more questions than answers for the gallery. Western Ops definitely the better of the PC12 sections. Stronger EBA, better pay, more comprehensive service, all NG fleet (central still with some classics). Some really good people at the top and in training and checking. Not perfect but as solid as it gets in GA. Semi-closed tender for their contracts with the state government - they don't have Pelair breathing down their neck like Victorian and South Eastern sections had/still have. Western also does almost all the medical component in house - doctors/nurses/ops team. Makes for a pretty good atmosphere and tight teams on the bases. Regional base to start, expect Meeka, Hedland or Kal. Each base has its own shortcomings. Broome in 1-2 years. Jandakot in 2-3 years. Shorter if you're lucky, some people landing Jandakot within a year. Rosters can be hard when the bases are understaffed, but you'll do 18-20 shifts in 28 days, nearly all standby from home. Commonly morning/morning/afternoon/afternoon/night/night/grey day/ then RDO x 3. 700ish hours per year in the logbook, the FRMS caps you at 750. Hours are harder than the numbers make it sound, most guys are cooked at 750. Big duty days after decent standby periods, and lots of back of the clock. PC24 within 3-4 years if you really want it, are competent and willing to go back to Broome. Seems like they want to give it to the younger and keener players, there's a little bit of seniority but just being there for a while doesn't guarentee you anything. 2 year bond. PC24 shifts/rosters a bit rough - lots of Broome - Perth return at unsociable hours. Ignore what the propaganda from Central section tells you about the PC24 - in WA it is a sealed surfaces only machine. Westops will take you with 1500 of the right hours (or even slightly less). IFR, night, turbine, Part 135 - if you tick these boxes and are good with people you'll get a good look in. The job really can't be done with much less than 1500 hours and a decent footing on IFR - the section is set up so every base/crew does aeromed including high acuity primaries. I think my second or third callout after check to line was a nasty medevac in **** conditions, I had barely more than 1500 hours and was ****ting bricks even after 80 hours of line supervision prior to check. I remember getting told in week one that one in three hires don't get through to line check - saw plenty of people scrubbed for not cutting the mustard. Great memories though. If you've been offered Westops I'd say go for it, you won't regret it. |
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