Broome to a Kimberly/Pilbara location - on to Darwin for a MED 1 is an option I would be happy with.

Darwin Hospital saved my bacon a couple of times - Perth may have had different outcomes in both my cases.

Bend alot, I thank you for your exhaustive efforts to answer my question, but I suspect you are answering a slightly different question to what I have asked (see my post #52). My question is:

Why the Broome basing when everything the Broome-based jet can do could be done by a Perth/Jandakot based jet with exactly the same time frames?

Watch out for the RFDS PR spin. Notice they always say the jets "are capable of ... dirt and unsealed", but never actually say that they will be operating on dirt/unsealed. The "emergency evacuations" line could also just be the PR machine.

Let's take a look at exactly which "dirt" strips they will be conducting "emergency evacuations" from. Firstly, keep in mind that an "emergency evacuation" can only be done from one of the places that is not a major centre. This is because the major centres all have hospitals. Any emergency will first go to a hospital for stabilisation. That will usually take several hours. Once the patient is in hospital, it is no longer an emergency.

The major centres are Broome, Derby, Kununurra, Wyndham, Fitzroy Crossing and Halls Creek. Almost the only places that can take the jet.

Which other places can take the jet, and don't have hospitals?

Balgo Hill. To my understanding of that part of the world, this is the only strip that is long enough (and wide enough). But, it has an elevation of over 1,000' and is gravel. The combination of gravel and high elevation would make for a takeoff performance requirement that is outside the capability of this jet for probably half the year, I believe.

So, with the possible exception of Balgo Hill, all the dirt/unsealed emergency work will continue to be done by the PC-12. It will take the turboprop several hours to get these patients to a major centre, from where they could be transferred onto the jet for carriage to Perth or Darwin.

But, having transferred the patient to a major centre, do they now go into the hospital there, or onto the jet? Most will go to the hospital.

In the time taken to get the patient to the major centre, the jet could have been making its way up from Perth/Jandakot. So why all the expense of the Broome basing when the same result could be achieved with the Perth basing? Those extra 5-6 Broome houses and allowances would surely add up to near a million dollars per year. As a taxpayer paying for about 80% of the RFDS, I am interested in the new ways they are finding to waste my money.

...............….yet another excellent post there FGD:-) Again most wont understand the logistics of this sort of operation, the RFDS PR spin is in overtime! The risk of operating this jet out of dirt strips would be high, anyone consider the wildlife that inhabits these grounds? One Roo could mean an expensive recovery operation & not to mention the weather, get caught at one of these dirt strips & it rains cats & dogs, might as well take a shovel to it & bury it! All the feel good figures from a salesmen POV is from nice Rwy's in ideal ISA conditions:-) Used properly should be a good asset but doubt it will be doing too many of the propaganda runs:-)
Personally I only see the jet doing the long trips from major based dromes with better facilities also being supported by hospitals.

Things must have changed!

I do not recall that categories but -

* The highest was depart now - I recall a case of this for a guy that his tent burnt down on him. But was very rare.
* Most common (after clinic runs) was communicate with the hospital/clinic and WAIT until word is given that the patient was stable, this was often car accidents. In many cases that case was many hours even days or cancelled.

Now if both jets wait to hear the patient is critical "but stable" before they depart who would provide care faster to say Derby?

Or will the Perth jet depart and wait 3 days at Derby for the patient to become stable or die? Then 4 crew stay an extra day as pilot duty time has been exceeded while on standby.

Argyle Airport is longer than the required 2930 ft (is 7546 ft) is asphalt (sealed)

The 520 man camp 185 km (by road) from nearest settlement has no hospital.

What would be the flight time from Broome to this Rio Tinto mine in a PC24?

* Edit to add Barrow Island and Telfer, Marble Bar also.

And not hard to put a few of these around the place say near roadhouses.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...20ac92bce72d20

If Western Australia has similar to this:-

https://www.aci.health.nsw.gov.au/__...Guidelines.pdf

Then burns patients are a time critical patient even in a major centre and require transfer to one of Australia's 13 burns units.

Stabilisation is checking for inhale burns (ex-ray) and you jump the que for this, followed by pain relief - shock takes long to settle in . Get to the burns unit ASAP.

Perth has two burns units and Darwin has one. I am sure Perth's are fine but I know Darwin's is great (Thanks Allison)

So for every time critical burns case, in North Western Australia a PC24 based in Broome is a good medical case for the jet to be based there.

I expect my early recollection of the guy burnt in the tent and "Go Now" was based on a similar policy to the NSW link supplied.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnenw0c42d...00005.jpg?dl=0

Lucky was a t shirt day.

I'll pay that, but how many Perth/Darwin evacuations per year would come from that mine? Maybe one.

The burns cases would still have to initially go into the local hospital, or be evacuated by the PC-12, so the total time to get the patient to Perth or Darwin would still be about the same.

I don't know but we do know the jet has been used in the north +70% of the use it has had to date.

Generally even when all crew are at a base (Jandakot or Broome) the time to be airborne is not a few minutes but from memory an hour or more. It is flight plans, fuels, and medical requirements and I assume that is patient details as may be relevant - maybe a blood type to sort or confirm. But it takes a bit of time.

** I expect an evac from such a mine to be small until it is big and front page.

So again it is the closest jet that will have the fastest response time.

For burns it seems a GO Now, that then would be the jet to any airport/town/strip that can accept it (not a PC12), but if a jet can not be first responder then yes a feeder PC12 would need to be used and a transfer to a jet considered. That will depend a lot on location and flight times and patient transfer time on ground and risk.

Did you not buy Barrow Island and Marble Bar? The town did swell during the races 10 fold.

I think it pretty funny that the RFDS is making such a big deal about this jet and carrying on as if they haven't had a jet at their disposal ever. A quick google search of VH-RIO will show a Hawker 800, thats been operated on behalf of the RFDS by a private company for the best part of a decade, mainly doing runs throughout WA and even interstate transfers. By good authority, the PC-24 wont have the same coverage. The Hawker seems to be a better machine other than the loading, but the pilots do the majority of the grunt work in most cases.

So time will see how the new machine stacks up .... As for the Christmas and Cocos run ... FORGET IT!

So quickly the RFDS seem to forget what they have had and think this new machine will be the answer to their prayers, time will see .... The RFDS isn't the well oiled machine that it makes itself out to be.

FGD135....is it just me, or are you a little 'anti' RFDS?

Broome is the largest base outside of JT. Operationally, they actually provide more shifts than JT.

It is a modern, well equipped base, with the staff and infrastructure already in place.

As CS mentioned previously, the idea is for PC12's to feed Kimberley patients into Broome, with the PC24 ready to fly through to JT.
The current situation, with Meeka or Newman meets with southern crews is time consuming and inefficient. With these 'meets' often being cancelled, due to higher priority tasking elsewhere, the crews get stuck in Perth.
This causes a lack of resources in the north, and an accommodation expense for the crew.

The PC24 idea is great in principle, (in Broome and Jandakot), only time will tell whether it is a success or not.

Folks,
I note that all jets, indeed all aircraft, not just the PC-24, are capable of a short landing.
Don't ya just love PR.
Tootle pip!!

You can land a Jumbo jet on a heli pad.....once:-) PR has it's place, it's their to get extra funding & it works:-)
I look Fwd to seeing the 24 around the traps for a sticky beak inside & of course hearing about the 24 in operation, all those dirt strips with wild life just waiting to play chicken with the jets:-)
Should make for some interesting reading this thread in the future:-)

They do not need to be dirt strips for wild life the RFDS WA section lost 4 Garret TPE 331 engines in around a week on 3 aircraft. 2 were wildlife on 2 separate sealed strips. The other was a dirt strip at Cotton Creek in the Little Sandy Desert, the pilot was off the runway turning around (after rain) when the nose started to get bogged. Application of "much" more power gave the sensation of forward movement until the nose leg collapsed. This as you would be aware created a double propeller strike even ripping one gear box apart - now if this was say the jet, how many engines would need to be changed?

The same for the other 2 aircraft that hit wildlife, it is the propeller that caused the costly repairs.

And the PC24 and crew has to be tied up at Broome waiting 3-5 hours for the patient to arrive? Why not spend those hours on getting the PC24 mobilised and up to Broome?

The Perth/Jandakot based PC24 would have completed this job 2.5 hours before the Broome-based aircraft. How is this efficient? And good value for that extra million dollars of taxpayers funding?

You're referring to pilot duty time. I wasn't. I was referring to the fact that, even though the Broome crew may not yet have been tasked, they and the aircraft have been allocated to the job. Those resources are thus tied up - thus somewhat defeating the purpose of having the jet.

That 3-5 hour preliminary tie up does not happen when the aircraft comes from Perth/Jandakot.

Yes, you are missing something. You shouldn't be, because I have gone over it several times - see my post #65.

Again:

If a patient has to get from a non-major centre in the Kimberley to Perth, they will first have to be retrieved by the PC-12, then taken to a major centre from where the jet can operate. The time taken to get them to Perth will end up being about the same, irrespective of where the jet is based. This is the patient's point of view.

If the patient has to come from one of the major centres, then the time frame is not usually critical, as, in this case, the flight is merely a hospital-to-hospital transfer - not an "emergency evacuation".

So, what are the key differences between the Jandakot and Broome basing, given that the patient sees no change in the time taken to get him to his hospital?

1. The time to do a transfer is 2.5 hours longer when the jet is based in Broome (the idea of jets is to save time);
2. The taxpayer shells out a million dollars more, per year, to have a jet in Broome.

FDG135 - 3, except for 3 persons in the car roll over out of Derby that caught fire!

There are numerous cases and places where the jet base in Broome can be justified for even an extra $1M a year.

You do not want to except any of them, but I dare say if you had family up that way your position may change.

People up that way also pay tax and much of WA's revenue comes from royalties.

WA total tax 2017/18 - $8,466.3 (million) with 38.1% being payroll tax.
WA total royalties 2017/18 - $5,132.3 (million) and 88.2% being iron ore.

Remember Turia Pitt & Kate Sanderson.

"Royal Flying Doctors spokeswoman Joanne Hill said the two were flown to Darwin because the trip to Perth was too long.

"Ideally the two would have gone to Perth but we needed to stabilise them," she said"

The Daily Telegraph - can not post links

You miss a lot of the points here. The risks are higher at strips that have less infrastructure around them as animals hunt for food in open spaces especially around unimproved runways. Wild life doesn't have to hit the props to U/S a plane! Take out a single aerial under the belly deforming the skin & an inspection.
would be needed, the jet would be grounded! Not too sure what jet/s you fly but jets are very sensitive to impact damage of any kind!

machtuk - I don't fly them only fix them.

Partly agree about higher risks at strips with less infrastructure around them, but interesting is RAAF Base Tindal where Pearl Aviation had to cancel aeromedical operations (B200) due to wallaby's.

Costly repairs to aircraft is a retaliative thing. Take out a single VHF aerial on either a PC12 or PC24 and the repair will be very similar and also the down time. Depending on where the "dent" is, again the repair cost and down time can be similar. Now if you take the collapsed nose neg example on a PC12 (B200 or C441) against the PC24 , replacement and repair of the nose leg would be similar but the engine and propeller repairs will be much higher.

With the PC24 having rear mounted (and higher) engines they are less likely to be affected by animals/wildlife, the likelihood is further reduced by having a much smaller diameter than the propeller arc.

Are you able to supply what non jet aircraft are not sensitive to impact damage? Certainly the Citation is build far more robust than the Caravan in as far as impact damage to the air-frames.

Your level of arrogance is quite extraordinary. I didn't realize you were a world authority on aeromedical retrievals.

I love the way you pluck figures out of the air to suit your argument. Where did a million dollars come from? Do you have an intricate understanding of the Broome Bases finances?

Despite all the pontificating on threads like this, there will be a 24 based in Broome. In the mean time, if you feel your tax dollars are being wasted, I suggest you take it up with your local MP.

Towering Q - the $1,000,000 was FDG135,'s guess at the cost of housing and other costs to the RFDS for staff at Broome that is not paid at Jandakot. I always thought it was well over the top and looking at the RFDS WA Pilot EBA it certainly is. All so to note is the extra 15 minute response time for Jandakot.

Seems the extra cost is about $20,000 per pilot based in Broome.

source :- AE416813

All new or existing employees employed at the (new) Broome base will receive the applicable district allowance rate for Broome in accordance with the WA Government rates.

All new employees employed at a regional base will be eligible for the applicable district allowance in accordance with the WA Government rates.

(Around $10,000 PA)



2. Permanent Accommodation

2.1 This clause shall apply in respect of permanent accommodation for a Full-time Pilot located at Bases outside the Perth metropolitan area, other than for the short term period provided in Clause 1.5 and 1.6 of this Annexure.

2.2 All Pilots employed at Bases on Permanent Transfer other than Jandakot Base shall be provided with:

(a) suitable Permanent Accommodation; or annual accommodation and utilities allowance of $10,028 per annum.

(b) or in the case of Pilot owning their own residence in a regional Base, $10, 180).

The allowance to be increased by the annual CPI rate each year during the life of the Agreement. This allowance will be paid pro-rata on paid hours worked.

2.3 A Pilot who resides in permanent accommodation owned or operated by the RFDS:

RFDS Pilots

(a) shall have 5% of the Pilot's gross salary deducted and remitted to the RFDS as a rental charge; and (around $6,000 PA)

(b) shall have 3% of the Pilot's gross salary deducted and remitted to the RFDS as a utility charge and the RFDS will pay all reasonable costs for the utilities used.(around $3,600 PA)



3. Response Times 3.1

When a Pilot is on Reserve Time at Home or Away from the Airport, the Pilot must be contactable and available for Duty and must sign on for Duty at the Airport:

(a) at Bases other than Jandakot Base, within 30 minutes of being notified of a callout; and

(b) at the Jandakot Base, within 45 minutes of being notified of a callout.

3.2 Pilots must make all reasonable attempts to contact the tasking coordinator to advise if an unexpected delay occurs.

Bend alot, that rollover and the burnt athletes all would have initially gone to the local hospitals for stabilisation (Derby, Kununurra). They would not have been ready for transport to Perth or Darwin until several hours later. The jet from Jandakot could have been using those hours to get to the Kimberley.

Can you give me example scenarios? No need for specific cases, just scenarios. I have been asking for these scenarios for a while now. Remember that anybody coming from Broome will first be coming from the Broome hospital - so there will be plenty of time to get the jet up from Jandakot.

This is an incredible statement coming from someone that has worked for the RFDS, morno. Cost is, in fact, the NUMBER ONE determinant in where/when/how medical services are provided. Everything is determined by cost. Everything. I once heard an RFDS nurse saying a similar thing. This is the starry-eyed, romantic, idealised notion of the RFDS. The reality is more down to earth. Money does not grow on trees.

And don't think cost is not important. Careflight and a few others have designs on a slice of WA's aeromedical contracts. The inter-hospital transfers, for example, is a niche that could be made into a separate contract (or has already been). Careflight could do that work much more cheaply than the RFDS.

Towering Q,

The "million dollars" is an educated guess. I would guess 4-5 more pilots, 2-3 more nurses, and 1-2 more doctors. That is 7-10 houses to be provided to these staff, plus all the remote allowances and perks. What would be your estimate?

Surely you can see where the 2.5 hours comes from - and that it is a very accurate figure.

I am not at all "anti RFDS". They do a great job (but given their history, would have to be bloated and inefficient). I am anti having our taxes wasted. Our "governments" probably waste a good 50% of all that hard earned money we have to give them. Every day, they find new ways to waste it.

FGD135 I did give you the example - you should read what I can not link. Here is a bit more of it.

Stabilisation was in Darwin not Kunnanara.

"Royal Flying Doctors spokeswoman Joanne Hill said the two were flown to Darwin because the trip to Perth was too long.

"Ideally the two would have gone to Perth but we needed to stabilise them," she said.

Ms Hill said the runners were injured at about 5pm on Friday and had to wait four hours for the alarm to be raised. They then had the 100km journey - mostly on unsealed roads - to Kununurra Hospital before the Royal Flying Doctor Service could take them to Darwin."

Note Kunnanara to Darwin (if they were stable then they would have gone to Perth) - so they were not stable at Kunnanara.
Once stable in Darwin one went to Sydney and the other Melbourne.

This real example shows your Perth only jet base as a massive time delay over Broome, as the PC24 would fly direct into Kunnanarra (no feeder PC12) then be in Darwin while your Perth based jet is only around 1/2 way to Kunnanarra.

Before you guys get carried away about "our tax dollars" remember that they are only part government funded. Last financial year they received 22% of their funds from the federal government and 29% from state and territory governments. That is 51%, leaving 49% to other sources.

https://www.flyingdoctor.org.au/asse...16-2017_D9.pdf

Thanks, Icarus2001. A little birdy once told me it was 80% government, but she was from WA, so that may have been just the Western Section.

Bend alot, you have left out the housing costs and most of the perks. 7-10 houses would have to be provided to the 7-10 extra staff that would occupy Broome. How much would it cost the RFDS per house, per year? Some may be rentals, some may be purchased. And the perks for the nurses and doctors? The doctors are on hefty salaries and receive hefty perks to match.

You're basing that on the statement from the RFDS. Every statement from them should be taken with a grain of salt. It comes down to what degree of stabilisation. A certain amount of that stabilisation would had to have occurred at the Kununurra hosital.

You're assuming that the RFDS only became aware of these cases when they first arrived in Kununurra - and that on arrival in Kununurra, they were ready to instantly go to Darwin.

In reality, the RFDS would have been aware of them hours before they got to Kununurra. And they would have spent several hours in the Kununurra hospital, on top of that. Plenty of time to get the jet up from Perth.

"you have left out the housing costs and most of the perks. 7-10 houses would have to be provided to the 7-10 extra staff that would occupy Broome. How much would it cost the RFDS per house, per year? Some may be rentals, some may be purchased. And the perks for the nurses and doctors? The doctors are on hefty salaries and receive hefty perks to match."

Mate READ the EBA, there is a very clear cut back and not many "perks".

The new Base Allowance is much less for Broome and housing is capped or charged. Rental in Broome is reasonable and I expect most permanent staff are required to get their own accommodation, I expect that the RFDS do have some houses but they are for temp crew/staff on fill ins.

Perks seem to be a fuel card with a limit and medicals, both include Jandakot pilots.

So until you supply something other than opinion lets stick to the factual $20K. and nothing like a total $1,000,000 that you asked if we had a better idea rather than your "educated" guess.

On your current form, it might not look good for you if we look at your other claims - re doctors and perks and so on.

I am also not sure a new aircraft type would require 7-10 houses but am certain the number of staff would be similar if an extra PC12 was based in Broome - so it is not really a jet base argument more capacity.

Towering Q #5 I have to agree - I am alive and scareless due to the Bali Bombings and the new treatment they developed.
Keep up the good work.

A very good guy I knew died trying to help a Trucky at Nanutarra Roadhouse many years ago, there was no aircraft to dispatch for a period of time. The organisation has now grown and with the introduction of the PC24 maybe he could be saved if it were now he had the accident. The station is like 1km away and has 2 runways and from memory one could take the jet, while not sealed people in that part of the world will make it to a standard required even with fencing - They just do what is required.

I also think that we will find Nanutarra is very close to half way between Jandakot and Broome coincidentally for me.

You're speaking from a pilot's perspective. You said yourself that there may be hours between when the job comes up and when the crew are tasked. How much time elapsed before you were called in this case? You would not have been tasked immediately.

I very much doubt that. Hence my claim re the 7-10 houses. Perhaps Towering Q can enlighten us, based on his time at Port Hedland.

That figure is from the pilot's EBA. What about the nurses and doctors? You have just shown that the total remote allowance for just the pilots is about $100K. Add in those for the extra nurses and doctors and you will be already near one quarter of the way to that million dollars. Now add in the housing (including utilities).

FDG135 we have supplied many facts - your turn show us the doctors and nurses costs as per EBA or other.

You supply nothing in way of fact and now proven very wrong on the pilots (your first claim of $1M) you want to change to medical staff.

(READ THE EBA - times HAVE CHANGED it is not Port Headland but all new now at Port Headland are under the new EBA (READ IT!!!!!!) then we will not look like you do now.)

Fine prove the cost, as we have proven you wrong to date with facts.

*** The fire burnt the victims at around 5 pm and the alarm was raised about 4 hours later, but both girls were taken by chopper to Kunnanara not by road so at a guess we are looking at a 10 pm arrival at Kunnanara. At best the the jet is ready to leave Jandakot as the girls are being picked up in the choppers - do the flight times between the 2 bases.

I have no experience in this area apart from being an ATC for some years dealing with the RFDS. A scenario I have envisaged is, a patient is picked up by the PC12 from somewhere, or presents to Broome hospital. It looks like they will need to go to Perth. The Perth based PC24 is sent up to Broome. Subsequently, patient is assessed as treatable there or dies. This becomes a wasted trip for the Perth based PC24 whereas a Broome based PC24 would have never left the ground.

Not sure how often this is likely to happen but thought I would throw it out there for comment.
​​​​​

No it is a practical thing and FDG is yet to supply anything other than opinion, that has been refuted by fact.

So exactly how does it work?

Hi mate, the No sayers have 2 cards at play.

A) The jet will be sent when a call is raised so travel time is not applicable. But Jandakot has better dispatch.
B) A patient will not be moved until stable - giving time for a jet to move from Jandakot.

Personally if there were no jet in Broome, I don't think sending the jet from Jandakot trying to save my daughter in Broome is a wasted trip but a best effort but short on time.

I hinted a few pages back that maybe not all patients get transferred to Perth. How many beds in the Darwin hospital are allocated to Kimberley patients? A figure I heard some years ago was about 6-8, I don't know what it is now but I would think it would be more rather than less... And that is just one regional destination. What about patients going back into Broome or Port Hedland?That's an eye watering amount of dead-legging expense to and from Perth even at jet-like speeds... Might even buy you a few housed in Broome for that sort of caper...!

What's the chances FDG135 is batting for Care Flight...? :E

Thanks, TQ. This information inspired me to redo my numbers. Rental in Broome is much cheaper than I first thought. The average seems to be around $500 pw. Redoing my numbers puts the total yearly outlay for the RFDS at about half a million (including all perks) for ALL the staff I estimate would be there due to the jet being based there (7-10 as stated above).

There is no justification for transfers to Darwin from the Kimberley with the jet. The time saved is miniscule. The transfer from Kununurra for example, would take 45 minutes in the jet, versus 60 minutes in the PC-12. 60 and 96 from Halls Creek. And those patients would be already stabilised, thus reducing the need for expediency. No justification.