Virgin Cruise FO: Accepting Interest...
 

I see on the VB recruitment website that VOz has just opened up recruitment for CZFO's. Has anyone got any inside information as to when recruitment will start, or how many CZFO's they are looking for, realisitic minimums they are looking for? etc I know there has been much "slagging out" on here with regards to the CZFO position and the conditions so if it could be kept civilised that would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

sorry...CRUISE FO

When will they start? They already have...:E

1,000 hours fixed wing experience (turbine experience desirable)
500 hours on multi-engine aircraft
Current ICAO ATPL (or Australian CPL with passes in all ATPL theory subjects), command multi-engine instrument rating and class one medical
English Language fluency (written and verbal comprehension)
An ability to communicate effectively in a dynamic operational environment
The desire to learn and grow
Ability to live and work in Australia
B777 type rating desirable
Wide body long haul experience desirable
The desire to learn and grow

I don't think the competition would be to stiff if the salary and conditions remain as they are and no chance of progression......but you never know!

Curious to know how many type rated guys join to be Cruise FOs. That would mean you have resigned as an FO from a foreign carrier I presume.

Not only resign, but be on $59,500 :ugh:

No, just watching and hoping the FO knows how to glide the thing when it goes quiet on short final....

Until you realise that FOs on regional turboprops earn almost the same amount or more.

QF gets tool of the year.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Wind up alert people! And if it isn't...well QF....see previous comments.

Touche j3 :ok::ok:

Up to 8 slots.

Dont expect any career advancement on the 777 as you will eventually have to transfer to VB if you ever want to land an aircraft again.

Good luck.

I am sure your local HJ's store manager make that much

Mate, the minimum requirements for VOz is no different for VB. You still need a minumum of 1000 hours TT and 500 hours multi before they will even look at your application. Please explain how you expect to get those hours by by-passing GA? :rolleyes:

j3

Big call on Feb 2nd mate.

So, "as an older bloke entering the industry..." W'QF, how much of a pay cut will you have to take to become a Wide body International Flight Deck crew member? :ooh:

Also; "young and expanding fast" does not always equal viable career opportunity, especially when your backseat experience counts for D!CK! :=

Great return on investment for the money and effort spent on gaining your licence and qualifications - NOT.

You would make more money cleaning tables and pumping coffee at the coffee shop where I get my coffee........:ok:

But I imagine your comparison between flying GA and a 777 has to be accurate if you are so insular and can not look past your navel. Do yourself a chocolate flavour and apply to "reputable" airlines around the world. It is a global business these days you know........ :ugh:

But then again - the pay might be right and the job perfect for someone who can envisage their future as a licenced radio operator/seat warmer. Sorry what was that - you think you pilot guy ehhh?:D

Lester,
"I cannot understand how in the middle of the greatest pilot shortage in recent Oz history VAust was able to put up such a hilarious CFO agreement and people actually flocked to it."
Because they have no choice. Thats why! Have a good look around GA, it's a joke generally speaking.
Until we have an EFFECTIVE GA/Regional union, this will continue to happen.
The bloody airline types just don't remember where they came from or just don't care.
End of rant!!!:sad:

What other industry has separate unions for every employer within it?

Why have a separate union for Virgin/Qantas/Regional and GA except to divide pilots up and prevent any sort of cohesive action if required. Divided everyone just fends for themselves which will continue to force conditions downwards, the comments justifying these salaries are proof of that.

GA's always been a joke (at least in the way I think you mean it). I spent 9 years there, and I can say with confidence I saw the very best, and the very worst in both people and operators. As for "bloody airline types" not remembering where they came from, I can tell you I used those exact words many years ago myself. It's just not particularily true.

As for having no choice, that has always been the retreat of those willing to take the fast track even when rational thought may point to the contrary.

It's a free Country, you are free to extoll the virtues of what amounts to be an international embarresment in Pilots Term and Conditions. People such as Lester, myself and quite a few others are equally free to comment from the other side of the fence.

But we all have a choice. If your choice leads to a viable career in aviation, we'll eat our words. If it doesn't, then in years to come you may reflect that those "bloody airline types" just may have known what they were talking about.

Good luck,

Krusty.

There are plenty of choices and opportunities out there. Get out there and look for them - think outside the square. Thinking that you must have an airline job where HQ is in Brisbane or Sydney is extremely nieve.:= Use your brain..... plenty of fun to be had through out the world..... living O/S can be great if your into it - or ever heard of commuting to work?

Good try :}- but off the mark. You will find that most know where they came from and the experiences that they went through are still as fresh as the day thet they occured - from washing the bosses car through to scaring the living bejesus out of yourself on that dark stormy single engine IFR night freight (...or please insert similar...). Some have fond memories of GA - some do not.

Of course not all airline pilots are ex GA - there are some ex RAAF, and some who went through a cadet program - so in that regard you are 100% correct. I would suggest that they are in the minority however.

Personally - I chose to go overseas to get turbine time and then overseas again to get an airline job. Best thing I ever did for my own personal development and career. :ok:But that is the choice that I made instead of whinging and resigning myself to mediocrity. Just gotta get out there and find the best "global" business opportunity.

Reality is that you will probably have to pack and move to find any descent job in aviation. Suck it up and get out there guys....but I do know that working for $59,000 odd :eek: on a 777 is pure exploitation - go work in a coffee shop instead :ok: If you want a pay rise - go work on the Sydney trains as a guard....put another $20,000 with shift penalties on top of the 777 job......

an3_bolt

How does working in a coffee shop, or at Sydney trains as a gaurd even compare to the experience gained in a B777??

Are you saying you'd rather make coffee for a little more money than be a pilot on a B777? That money may not be enough for you and me to get by, but it's obviously enough for others with family help, investments etc..

With respect, I think you've lost perspective.

AN_3 Bolt.....a bit naive mate.
Reality is this. The situation that leads to blokes having to take this job is easy to understand, family, bills to pay etc. Given the situation, I'd take it as well.
Remembering what it was like in GA and doing something positive about it are two very different things.
Until an effective union is in place, these jobs will continue to pop up. People at the bottom cannot do much about the current situation....people at the top of the tree can....if they want!
As to the sanctimonious rantings that basically say....don't take the job, I'd answer.... rot!
Krusty........can't see what your point is apart from "I'm right Jack"!
Geeez.:ugh:

Who do you perceive to be the 'top of the tree'?
And what can they do about it?

...well actually have been there and done that in your situation.....but I took a different course of action when faced with the same decision.

But I think you don't get my drift - I am not having a go at you in this regard - simply saying that there are options you may simply have not seen or considered.

With that regard:
.....so the 777 gig is just work experience? Sounds like it as effectively you are subsidising their operation. A bit like the dude who got the doctorite at university but gets paid less than a checkout chick at coles when looking after the universities nuclear physics lab? Hmmmm - but cruise FO hours in a logbook must look so attractive (....by the way when applying O/S some airlines do not even acknowledge cruise FO/SO what you want to dress it up with" hours...)." But I imagine you have researched that in case it all goes tits up or does not expand for the next 15 years etc etc.

...yep. How much have you invested in monetary terms? How much have you invested in terms of your years? Pain and suffering? If you can get paid more for an "unskilled" job or semi - trained job (couple of weeks on the job training for a train guard) - what is wrong with the picture of being paid less to fly the 777?

... so let me get this right - working for an airline as a heavy jet pilot - and having to rely on others generosity or previous investments to simply make it from day to day and pay the bills? And this is acceptable for an airline environment? How healthy is it to have a financially stressed crew member on a flight deck?

.....really? So you are not into self help? The governments fault? Others fault have to fix it?
By the way - just in case you do not know - there are plenty of people at "the top of the tree" (your words not mine as I believe that everyone is in it together...) trying to change what you and others are going through for the better.

Summing up: If you gotta absolutey have that shiney jet seat in Australia right now, today - pull out that VISA card and melt away - as you will be the one paying - today, tomorrow, the next day, the day after that........ But is there another way....

This industry has turned to worms, with the help of that attitude. Just go to J* and tell them you'll fly for 28k. Just get it over and done with...

Jeez, some pretty passionate responses here.

I guess there are guys here who will take this and see it as an opportunity to move up in their careers. Yes the pay may not be flash in comparison to QANTAS or Cathay or Air NZ. With time to command with the legacy carriers somewhere around the 20 year plus mark. I wouldn't want to be making beds and serving the Captain coffee for the next 5 to 10 years before I get to move into the Right seat for another 10 years..

According to the VAus recruiting page it does state:

"Opportunities to progress from Cruise Relief First Officer to First Officer may exist within the company provided a CRFO has sufficient appropriate experience. It is envisaged that in line with forecasted aircraft delivery dates these opportunities will be limited"

It doesn't say that opportunities to progress to First Officer will never happen and no one will be able to predict what is going to happen, but those CRFOs in the company with suitable experience may find themselves F/Os in 2 or 3 years time, a lot sooner than with a legacy carrier - it may take longer too, point is we just don't know.

I have put my name down for it, just under $60K a year is better than what I am on now flying as an F/O on a turboprop for just under $30K outside of Australia, we all make sacrifices for our careers and what we want to do.

Given the short sighted attitudes of many on this thread, is it any suprise that the CEO of Voz "dared" insult our profession with the CRZ F/O T&C's on offer?

If you were a CEO, what would you do??.....the race to the bottom is nearly complete.

I dont care how you dress it up, $60k for a B777 gig is an insult

What VA is offering is a disgrace.

I have worked hard to get where I am in GA and enjoy my job (G1 MEIFR and occasional CHTR). I basically work 9-5 and earn slightly more than what's on offer at VA. Throughout my time I have enjoyed a great relationship, bought a house and spend plenty of time with family and friends. I've had the opportunity to move on but could not have achieved/enjoyed these things on a regional pay.

I have got this far never having paid for hours, endorsements, renewals etc...

Now why a person would spend so much money on a licence, ratings, hour building etc and then accept a contract like this is completely beyond my comprehension. I can only put it down to lack of maturity or too little time in the job. Flying is not life, it is a job, and while I think the 777 is a brilliant machine and would love to fly one, I'm not going to sacrifice my current situation/lifestyle with such a backwards step. Nor would I accept a job where they said, congratulations, now pay us 30k.

The main question I would ask those who have registered interest is, why is it VA has no clear path for progression within its ranks? How is this attractive?

Any CFO's out there want to talk us through a typical roster? Then we can compare it to QF SO and see how big the divide really is.

And yet you want to fly for a company that will have you earning about 80k a year less while you wait, and by its own admission says there will be extremely limited promotional opportunites?

If you think that 2 to 3 years is a possibility, you've got rocks in your head. The point is that there will be a stream of applicants for VA, and you can bet your bottom dollar they will be for Direct Entry F/O positions, while all the cruise F/O's sit there logging hour after hour of time that is getting them nowhere, but being paid 80k less than their Qantas brothers for doing the same thing.

For anyone considering this you WILL be much better off waiting for VB.

VB have been recruiting and will need pilots. The requirements are the same. The pay and conditions at VB are MUCH better.

If you join VA (as a CFO) with the bare minimum experience, you WILL eventually have to transfer to VB.

Good luck with your choices.

The minimum requirements for this job make it even worse. Perhaps with lower entry requirements, they'd attract willing lower-houred Pilots who drool over the prospect of being anywhere near a 777-3. The position has been rightfully compared to a QF S/O, who only require half the time for Direct Entry, and will earn nearly double. That is :mad: pathetic.

The minimums are the same for DEFO with Virgin Blue.

Why anyone with those minimums would apply for Cruise FO when they can apply for DEFO with VB is beyond me.

Biggles

...but it's a BIG SHINY JET!

May need a few more Second Officers (come on, let's call them what they are, it's not an insult, that's their role), heard some of the existing ones are getting a shot at window seats on company 737s. They won't know what do with the (nearly) 100% payrise.

As I was saying.........

Why waste 2 years of your life?

:ugh:

When you do the training for a type rating as a Cruise F/O position, is there less emphasis on the take-off, approach and landing phases, or is it the same as any other F/O type rating? Just curious.

I've been out of GA for a few years now, but a combination of circumstance and too much free time found me at a GA airfield earlier today. Basically I was in the area, so thought I would pop in and reminisce about the old days.

Turns out it was less reminiscing, and more cold shudders at the miserable sight I beheld. Can't say I ever enjoyed GA all that much to begin with, but it was still gut-wrenching to catch up with some hard-working, dedicated drivers who are simply doing whatever they can to climb the greasy pole. Just when I start getting disenchanted with terms and conditions at my place of employment, an afternoon with these guys certainly put me back in my place, and made me remember that I'm not better than them - just luckier.

As an airline pilot, I think the V-Oz conditions are disgraceful, but it's easy for me to say that from the perspective of someone who already flies for an airline. On the other hand, some poor bugger getting paid peanuts, flying a clapped-out, questionably unsafe piston-engine bugsmasher, may simply be unable to make that distinction - and I don't think it's fair for us to pass judgment on them as a consequence. Or in other words, it's about not criticising someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes first - and whilst most of us have at some time in our career worn those very same shoes, I daresay it was such a long time ago for some that they've simply forgotten how bad it was.

If I was stuck in GA and had the option to step up to the majors - even if just for a pissy Cruise F/O slot - I can see how it would make for a compelling argument. Thankfully I don't have to consider it, but I bear no ill will towards those who do.

Well said Bunglerat.