Greenslopes, you beat me to it. Very well said Bunglerat. :ok:

I agree Bunglerat, the best arguement by far on this thread!

Well maybe! But what is next?

Nice aeroplane, nice hotels (well probably not!). More money for the time being.

But the position leads to nowhere. You may as well tough it out where you are, and move up the greasy pole, gaining marketable experience along the way.

Gentlemen,

I put in an application months ago through internal sources and it's looking positive with interview soon. Regardless of what YOU think about this position it's a chance for hard working GA pilots like me who have done their time to become part of a professional flight crew and fly with the big boys. I've only just picked up heavy turbo-prop experience and would pay my bond out in a heart beat to sit in the 777... and with my experience I think they'd be lucky to have me and others alike who have slogged it out in GA.

My sources tell me they are hiring big and all the people who are stuck flying turbo-props or bug smashers in their 30's will miss out with your current attitudes!! :ugh:

PM me for any (private) details if anyone wants info on the interview and testing process. :ok:

Salute.

Are you really a colonel ???

If you're serious colonel, then you deserve what you get, it couldn't be put any plainer than it has been on this thread, you'd be well advised to listen.

Enter at your own risk, but dont complain in 12 months about your upgrade, dont complain about DE F/O's taking "your" seat, dont complain about the cabin crew being paid more than you,and dont say you werent warned.

A 777 job is now just a "slightly" better GA gig ...well done boys, you're selling your very expensive career down the river.:ok:

:ok:GOODAY and kind regards sir!

All the very best in your new position, it certainly must be very exciting to finally become part of a professional flight crew and fly a heavy twin like the 777! :ok:

I know that you may have just picked up some heavy turbo-prop experience and obviously this has helped immensely in gaining your new professional flight crew position, but what I need to ask you if you don't mind, is how important is it to have heavy single time when applying for a heavy turbo prop flight crew position?

Any advice much appreciated :ok:

PM me if you prefer :ok:

If, as Biggles has pointed out 'The minimums are the same for DEFO with Virgin Blue', whats wrong with applying for both and taking whichever opportunity presents itself first.

It seems everyone seems to focus on the Cruise FO wage. Its not always necessarily about the money, its about and lifestyle and opportunities, and everyone's individual circumstances are different! You would certainly not be doing your career any harm in taking a Cruise FO position. If you dont - someone else will. If I was the boss of VOz, or any airline for that matter and I could get away with paying my staff less than I had to - then I would, it kinda makes sense to me!

Reading these posts just highlights to me why leaving GA in Australia was the best thing I ever did. I took a chance, when an opportunity presented itself, and have never looked back.

You can't realistically ridicule anyone for taking this opportunity.

Good on you guys who have applied, and in the process hope to change your circumstances. I wish you all the best.

I AM still in GA and get paid more than this. And even when I was getting paid 30k to fly a bongo, I still thought the FO wage was an insult. Good luck guys, hope you get what you deserve.

Thanks j3. I just hope that by getting what I deserve, I get to live with my family. I get to live in a country where I don't have to worry about the military breaking into my house to take me to prison because I might have said the wrong thing while at work. I get to enjoy the outdoor pursuits and hobbies that I can't do here because it is illegal. Oh and also the ambulances here haven't run for the last three months because they don't have any money to buy fuel for them!

I guess moving over here has given me a whole new outlook on life and it has shown me that money does not equal happiness. Everyone has their own reasons for applying for these jobs.

And oh for the record, I haven't just applied for VOz, but also Jetstar and VB too.

So Empacher,

Was it that same military that came over, dragged you from your home and threw you in the RHS? Or was it, oh my god I'm gonna say it, YOUR CHOICE?!???.....

So you went overseas to try and further your career. Sorry that it doesn't seem to have worked for you (and it really mustn't have if you're applying for a CZFO). You probably didn't do your homework on the country you were intending on living, you just saw a turboprop and everything else faded into the background. It wasn't until a few months later you realised the contract you signed was pitiful...

There's no point arguing with you guys/girls. Your minds are made up, however follishly. I'll just leave you with this....

IF THEY PAY PEANUTS WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU...

And quit comparing GA to airlines, there SHOULD NOT be any comparison in Terms and Conditions. Besides, you've still gotta go out and get that 500 multi to apply anyhow.

j3

I find it pathetic in the level of people justifying this ridiculous salary.

All of you chose to be pilots!!! Now that you've shelled out thousands to get a licence (some $80k+) you just jump at a position paying half the going rate, flying machines that should be the top pay scale to retire on. Why didn't you just save your money and do something else rather than winge how bad GA is and I want to fly a jet yesterday.

The only thing wrong with GA is the lower end pay. If the aircraft or operations are dangerous, report the company and leave.

I have never felt sorry for any Australian pilot because they can easily leave and take up another profession in this country. For those who moved overseas to fly for a living well that was YOUR choice.

What is being said here is advice to try to stop the deterioration in terms and conditions in this country.

These lower salaries are being used to compete directly with airlines that pay reasonable wages, so what do you think the next step will be? Your airline will not pay more (they have all you guys accepting their terms), however the others have reason to PAY LESS!

Yes it was my choice to make the move here. I did it to further my career, my next step will be to further my career.

I do not regret making the move over here, after 9 years in GA it was a shot to make it into the airlines at a time when no one else was hiring. Anyway the flying is fantastic and it has shown me that money isn't the be all and end all. You should have your own values to consider your life a successful one. As I said, to me, its family, health and a job that I enjoy. In that order now.

I realise there are people who wish the T&Cs to be the same as they were 20 or 30 years ago. Unfortunately it will never be "like it once was" pilots are no longer the demigods they once were and every country on earth is in a race to the bottom.

GA may seem rough but it is invaluable experience. The skills, thought processes and maturity gained in GA are FAR more valuable to potential employers than a cruisy CRZ FO slot with VA.

Unfortunately a CRZ FO means nothing. It's a dead-end street. It's the same as having been a S/O with Qantas for 10 years - you are unemployable elsewhere. Indeed the time may be regarded as a liability - you may be seen to lack motivation and too indoctrinated with big company/cruisy living mentality. The major difference is that at least with QF (shrinking operation though it maybe) you still progress to F/O and Captain. No such guarantee exists with VA.

Beware shiny jet syndrome. It's nice to see enthusiasm at the joy of working for VA but as it stands it's not a good career move. Yes living in Karratha and banging about in a rusty 206 or Baron isn't as glamourous as looking at pretty FA's but the latter means nothing when it comes to your attractiveness to potential employers.

empacher48,

Good God Almighty!!! :rolleyes:

In my opinion there is significantly more opportunity with Voz as a cruise F/O, than sadly with QF as an S/O.
Not the way I'd like to see it either, and maybe a little pessimistic. But nonetheless in simple terms a new contract verses an old and withering one.

Good luck to those who join, you'll never look back.

At the moment when life is cruisy you do bugger all flying, and have long layovers. V probably is great fun, and now is the time to experience it.

However if things ramp up a bit I think your contract could bight you in the arse very hard. Flying from one side of the world to the other one day off then off to the other side of the world I don't think would be much fun. Even less so when you are getting pay peanuts. Not sure if V do it however I know Jestar count days off overseas as RDOs!!

As a cruise FO??:rolleyes:

Assuming that V will let you to go VB and VB will take you!!
If not I would suggest you are probably in the same position as QF 2nd Officers. I also believe that there is no seniority at V so in theory they could just flush out Emirates and fill the RHS will those guys.

'you are probably in the same position as QF 2nd Officers'

I disagree, you would be in a growing company instead of a contracting one.

Of course the pay would be what, triple at least, but how long will that last?

Or indeed the LHS.

:ouch:

QF has progression.

To those who've applied, have you asked yourselves why there is no career path or progression? In fact they have said quite clearly 'opportunities will be limited'.

I would be very sceptical of a company with this attitude. I certainly can't see any positive reason as to why this policy would exist, not for flight crew anyway.

Errr... novice110

How's the air on your Planet? :hmm:

For those of you that think there is no career path for CFOs. VB are arranging slots for interviews with VB after their 24 month bond comes closer to expiry. Some of you may say that why have to go through the interview process again. Those VB guys/gals that transverred to V about a yr ago also had to go through Vs interview process.

Sorry Neville, you may have got the wrong end of the stick. I don't work for VOz, I've only just applied. :ok:

Rumour has it the majority of VOz CFO's found out today just how much opportunity there is. :rolleyes:

C'mon TF, don't keep it to yourself.

A bloody very talented little monkey. :ok:

I here there is another payrise about to come for them :ok:.

Krusty,

Put it this way... If you joined as a CFO without jet time >40T....... you wont be seeing the RHS of the tripler.

:uhoh:

WannabeQF,

Im not sure. I just heard some sort of upgrade policy was presented to the pilots today.

CFO's WILL have to transfer to VB........ or leave I guess?

:\

Thanks TF, I kinda' worked that one out for myself back in the beginning. People really need to read the original VA contract. A more cynical document you will never find. I particularily love the part where a CFO after having spent thousands of dollars and years of effort to become qualified, then over a period of no less than six years, is required to resign from Two(2) major airlines, and Re-apply to the same Two(2) major airlines, all just to advance His/Her career with the original carrier! Also, there is nothing in the contract to prevent VA or VB from not accepting the pilot either on the outbound journey or back to VA! More than one golden opportunity to punt an undesireable, aggitator, or non-brownnoser if ever there was one.

It's all well and good to have stars in your eyes. Crikey if we didn't have stars at some stage in our lives then none of us would be flying today, but the "progression" component of the VA contract takes the term "Snake Oil Salesman" to an entirely new level.

There's a lot of flack going back and forth. Quite naturally when you have two different opinions from people with "stars" on one side of the fence, and those who can see this whole thing for what it really is.

If you're hopeing for the EBA negotiations to bring about change in this area, I wouldn't be holding my breath. I've been involved with more than one EBA in the past, and I can tell you apart from maybe a modest pay rise (usually at the sacrifice of some conditions, although in this case I fail to see any conditions to give up in the first place), operational matters such as Minimum crew requirements for a window seat, won't get a look in.

As I said before,

GOOD LUCK!!!

Just the Facts
 

Upgrade Requirements for V-Australia Pilots

Command

Basic Hour Requirements- Command

8000 Total of which 500 hours should be multi Engine command

And Either

2000 Command or First Officer Time on a Wide or Narrow Body RPT Jet > 40 tonnes. A pilot must have a command endorsement on the aircraft to meet this requirement.

Or 1000 Command on Wide Body Jet > 120 tonnes (B767 or above)

Or 250 Sectors as a First Officer on Wide-bodies (767 or above) with a minimum of 50

Sectors completed on V Australia B777 aircraft

The above requirements may be varied by the GMFO in exceptional circumstances only.

Military aircraft and two crew jets below 40 tonnes will be assessed by the GMFO on a case by case basis to decide if the hours meet the required criteria to be considered for promotion.

First Officer

Basic Hour Requirements- First Officer

4000 Total

400 Sectors in a Jet RPT aircraft > 40 tonnes as Co-Pilot or Pilot in Command. A pilot must have a Command endorsement on the aircraft to meet this requirement. 1000 Co-Pilot Hours after Check to Line on RPT aircraft > 40 tonnes is deemed to meet these sector requirements.

CRFO?s who have prior sectors on RPT Jets > 40 tonnes may combine these sectors with CRFO sector?s on the B777 to meet the 400 sector requirement. The minimum number of hours as a First Officer on RPT Jets > 40 tonnes must be 200 hours to take advantage of this provision. For CRFO?s who have prior sectors on an RPT jet a minimum of 50 sectors is required to be on V Australia B777 aircraft. The Company reserves the right to consult with previous employers in respect of sectors flown if added to the 400 sector requirement.

CRFO sectors do not constitute FO sectors unless the above provision is available.

The above requirements may be varied by the GMFO in exceptional circumstances only.

Military aircraft and two crew jets below 40 tonnes will be assessed by the GMFO on a case by case basis to decide if the hours meet the required criteria to be considered for promotion.:yuk::ugh::yuk:

Not saying that I agree, but the fact that many Cruise FOs would have to leave to gain the experience for an upgrade has been available on the careers website since inception. It also states that opportunities will be limited.

The lure of a shiny jet should not be underestimated, but it's not ALWAYS best to jump at the first opportunity.

I worked as a cruise pilot in the past, here's a typical flight:

Turn up in briefing room, prepare all documents with F/O, do the chart (we did Oceanic via NATS so needed a chart with ETOPS circles). With capt's permission notify final fuel. In my experience 40% of capt's consulted and involved you, 40% didn't and the final 20% didn't have a clue how to act in a heavy crew.

On board, program FMC from PF chair as they went to do the walkaround. Get clearance and fill out V speed card. W&B document was my responsibility to complete in outlying airports.

After take off, fill in waypoint times, notify hosties of expected turbulence so they could plan the service. Plan the work schedule based on who was doing landing and who was tired at present.

Rarely got into a seat within 30 minutes of take off, some captains saw it as integral you were involved as much as possible. Some went down the back for a sleep, some never left their seat.

Generally do most comms, most inflight paperwork and weather dictation. NATS you have 5 minutes of activity followed by 1 hour of reading the manuals or paper. Other than that, a 12 hour flight was 2 hours sleeping, 1 hour eating, 1 hour toilet/stretch legs in aft galley/talking to crew, 3/9 hours in a seat.

The company I worked for had an SOP that whenever a CP was in a control seat, they would defer to PF regardless of their role before.

20 minutes before TOD, back into back, look to speak to Ops and give them ETA and get stand, finish up paperwork that you could without getting final Landing/Block times.

After landing, pass all paperwork to capt for signing, prepare new documents for incoming crew and tidy up the mess.

Hotel after meet and greet with incoming crew.

GOOD:
Easy life, good to absorb procedures from the third seat "the throne". Get a decent layover 4x a month (mini holiday - if its a crap crew it drags). 11 colleagues to go away with, 11 new colleagues a week later.

BAD:
Job in mundane, treated as a dick/skivvy by a lot of colleagues (including hosties), could be messed about with by management with respect to upgrade as its an inconvenience for them. Some regulatory authorities and airlines don't value all the time logged towards their thresholds. No T/O or Landings.

Only a fool enters into a job without researching it. If it works for you financially or as career progression then you apply, if you have an aversion or don't fancy it, you don't.

Out of interest, does this new policy mean that "CRZFOs" will automatically be offered positions with VB? And on what fleet? Will be interesting to find out how this will all work. What about all the experienced pilots outside of the Virgin group applying for the latest round of recruitment? Will they be overlooked for CRZFOs coming from Vaus? What about all of the VB FOs who transferred to the Ejet and are waiting to come back to the 737? And more worrying, who will replace the CRZFOs? I wonder if that is still a much sought after position....or if it ever was.

biton: "Out of interest, does this new policy mean that "CRZFOs" will automatically be offered positions with VB?"

NO!

Read the contract. :=

Your dreaming mate of thinking that you will walk into a window seat at VB after a stint in the galley at VOZ

You asked Biton?? Thats the answer....DYOR.

Eaeaasy biton, no need to get too hot under the collar.

Hope your S/A in the cockpit is better than your knowledge of your own company's hireing policy! :ugh:

So who pulled the retort? Biton or the Mods.

Don't think it would be the mods, But for the benefit of others it went something like this...

"I dont give a @#%* about the contract Champ.. I work for VB...etc, etc,...":ok:

Yes, I deleted it because I took a deep breath after I'd posted it. Schoolboy error. I'll let you in on something you may not know about VB, we don't know much at all about what is happening at Vaus. They are run as two separate companies with separate recruitment and conditions, etc. You wouldn't believe the lengths one has to go to to see a copy of the Vaus contract. Now, I don't know too many people working at Vaus which is why I asked the questions here. So now you know that it's not just a simple matter to "read the contract" as you so gleefully told me to do. Is it really that unreasonable that I should ask the questions I did on here? You act like I offended you in some way by asking them. Perhaps you should take a deep breath too.