Oxford Students
 

Hello everyone,
I was just looking for some opinions on how the Oxford trained pilots go when looking for jobs in GA?
Do they have an equal chance against someone with the same experience that attended another school?
I ask this as most entry level jobs won't have the G1000 setup.
As well as their training goals are more orientated around airline SOPS.

Thanks

You've used a lot of words there to say "I have no fkn idea" soseg...

wwejosh : I did a bit of training at Oxford/GFS and know quite a few of the current instructors, so I understand your dilemma.

It really comes down to what you think or hope you'll be doing afterwards. If you're going to be an instructor and hang around at Oxford or MFS or similar, its not a problem, and you'll be placed in good stead with your experience.

If you want to go bush, you'll need to spend some time on standard gauge aircraft. Operators will have their own preferences, but even for your own flying standards and safety, you'll need to get out of the ********-proof full size GPS and train your eyes where to look for stuff, especially moving from the tape style Airspeed and Altimeter readings to circular gauges.

The thing is, if you do want to go bush, you'll need to do some 206/210 time or similar anyway, which Oxford dont have, and which are very rarely G1000. Alternatively, if you do your multi endorsement at Oxford you'll be flying the Semen-holes which have steam gauges.


As for the SOPs question, I wouldn't worry about it. You'll probably use some sort of SOPs through your career even in GA, so some exposure to them is not negative.

Lastly I would say, just remember there is a big wide world outside the rather cushy Oxford environment, where you have to do more difficult things than land a leather-seated G1000 on a big wide tarmac runway, so if you get the chance, get some other experience.

soseg: What makes you think they have such a good reputation? That's absolute crap. The only reputation they have outside of MB is for being able to screw their instructors and churn out students who are quite one-dimensional.

Ever since they brought in the G1000s, stopped all unsealed ops and had a million cadets going through the standard was always going to slip. Now hear me, they do churn out "safe" pilots, but probably not very highly skilled ones who have their abilities really tested.

I've dealt with a number of former students of the said organisation. Most of them are top blokes and good workers, no different standards-wise to any other newbie I've encountered. The only negative I've seen in quite a few of them is that they're blinkered to the real world of GA and are too used to the rarified environment of brand new aeroplanes and having plenty of money around. I once had to interrupt a group of them discussing what sort of captains they were going to be to get them to move an aeroplane and none of them would lift a finger until booted up the arse. :ugh:

So make the most of the training, enjoy the nice aeroplanes, but don't think that's how the rest of GA is - when you come out of the pilot factory you'll be a **** kicker just like we all are with 200hrs! Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty.:ok:

Oxford doesn't allow unsealed ops? There's an indication right there.

G1000 glass cockpit hey. Well have a good look because it will the last time you see one for a very long time if you go charter as they dont last long in the bush, or operators cant afford them. Grab an aircraft with steam gauges and head off on a trip.

No gravel/grass/unprepared action, get some of that. If you have never seen a dirt strip your in for a rude shock if you head north and your in the desert, kimberley or arnhemland areas as most strips around there (even the bigger strips) are gravel, so a bit of airmanship (airperson for the ladies) on them will really impress the CP.

PS: If my boss gets a phone call from another newbie pilot that emphasises the glass cockpit training in brand new aircraft, I think he will cry. We dont operate glass cockpits, "how does that help us?" is what he asks.

So get some exposure to older sort of aircraft as everyone here is saying there is a slight difference between the analog and glass, pack your swag in your car and head off. And if you see a dirty flogged out 206/210 parked at a fuel bowser or tied down somewhere that you would not take your girlfriend for a holiday, then talk to the operator or the pilot, that may be your first job.

Best of luck, stick with it and you will get something.

Don't want to get them pretty C172R wheel pants dirty do we? :E

tmpffsch: When the new G1000s came in around early 2006 it was stopped. Pretty disappointing, but i guess they saved on props and figured that the overseas cadets didnt need the experience anyway. Apparently they do occasional T&Gs at YOLA if supervised by instructors but certainly not solo. I think a remote operator would find it pretty hard to employ a tarmac baby.

XanaduX: That'd be 172S mate! All the Rs are steam gauge and have gone to better homes.

I find alot of the aforementioned pretty disturbing especially for the new pilot about to choose a course-wwejosh.


The thing about unsealed ops is true, however with permission from authority there can be exceptions made.

Oxford is trying to prepare pilots for the airlines- hence glass cockpits, King airs, 300 page sops etc and taking in so many cadets is just a pretty obvious example of this.

It is NOT your local flying school like some others at YMMB where youll just chill all day and come in whatever you want and fly when you want. There is a certain order of discipline at Oxford because after all this is what pilots are meant to have and what is meant to prepare them for a long career namely as an Airline Pilot!:)

You're my hero nkand

j3

See what I mean? :ugh:

Nkand. If you think the kind of discipline the airlines are after will be instilled in you from doing a course at oxford, rather than working your butt off in GA for 5 years, you're in for a rude shock.
Good luck with that.

I have wondered, how, the past few years, the large percentage of Oxford students who DON'T end up getting a job straight away in airlines, manage to survive out in the real world, operating in non-glass cockpit aircraft, operating from skinny little dirt/gravel strips etc etc, with no ADF, when this has been all they have known since their first hour of flying training?

I know a few oxford students, and was gobsmacked to see how much they rely on the moving map displays and other tech wizadry in the cockpit when I backseated a nav with one student a few months ago. Getting thrown into an old steam driven C210 with basic avionics and not much else must be quite a shock to some of them heading north to get hours!

Nkand, a couple of things.

How many of your mates are now in the airlines?
How many have acceptance and start dates with the airlines?
How many of your mates are now in GA?
How many are unemlpoyed?

You have just proved your ignorance in the world of aviation. I don't intend to be harsh, but sit back and think about it. There are guys with many thousands of hours out there applying to airlines, with thousands of hours COMMAND, in aircraft that aren't always shiny. Learning airline SOP's is not going to be hard for them.

From my mates in the airlines the cadets are not despised, but certainly not looked upon with envy by captains and FO's that have done the GA or military route. The stories I heard about Qlink and its trainee's with 250-300hrs were downright scary.

What I'm saying is you won't be prepared for airline from the school your at or any school really. I am not saying that Oxford is a bad school, but to imply that you will be prepared for an airline gig when you finish it with 200hrs in a 172, please.

All this preparing you for the airlines rubbish that flying schools are jamming down naive students throats these days is just marketing crap and totally inappropriate for the Australian and NZ aviation environment where there is a very strong focus on working in GA before moving into the airlines.

Unlike the UK and rest of the world where it is not uncommon for fresh cpls to jump straight into a jet, down under here 95% of people will go through the GA ranks. This may change in the future but is still a long long way off.

The reality is the first few years of your career you will be landing on other than sealed strips and will usually be flying old aircraft (ok there are the odd operator with new airvans etc) with steam driven gauges, You will be filling your own aircraft out of drums and bowsers, you will be filling out your own MRs and keeping track of your own Flight and Duty times, you will be washing planes and mopping up spew. Why don't flying schools teach this stuff anymore as this is what will happen in the real world. Not walking about posing in uniforms with a shoulder full of ****** bars telling all who will listen how easy it is to become an airline pilot.:ugh:

Unless you have the ability to up stumps and move over seas all you blokes and blokeets out there will be in for a real shock once you have a nice freshly printed licence in your hands.

As for the original question posted You will find that that a licence is a licence at the end of the day and no one really cares if you flew glass or steam but your future employer will be expecting you to be able to handle yourself or adapt quickly to unfamiliar aircraft and strips. My advice is to get out of your comfort zone and get familiar with other aircraft ie 206/210 and find an instructor who will show you the in's and outs of a real operational environment.

to the above posters,

my point wasnt to say that I or indeed any of my fellow pilots would jump with 200 hrs in a 172 into the RHS of a 737. That stuff happens in India:ugh:

My point is that Oxford prepares you for the future possibility of a jet job/airline pilot career. Alot of graduates have subsequently gotten cadetships and traineeships and some are in GA. It really depends- to say though that this is the wrong way to train as many above have suggested is totally absurbed and you can clearly tell the whingers above- i did GA this, that- there are many routes and that is one option.. not THE only option!

I think you will find myself and those above speak from experience. Take the advice if you like or ignore it no skin off my nose.

Out of interest nkand....how does a flying school prepare you for an airline career? What do they do that is SO different to any other flying school?

Exactly Tempo It is all just marketing BS that flying schools bleat out all the time not just Oxford just about all of them. That is why Hungry Jacks is usually the next job for these guys that have gone out into the real world with eyes wide shut after being feed all this airline crap from flying schools.

Geez you blokes are harsh!!!!:confused:
Nkand.....generally speaking I've been kinda impressed with the product thats been turned out by GFS/Oxford over the last few years. Standards and procedure driven students can't be all bad!
I'm not that sure that flying a glass cockpit over steam driven is an advantage or disadvantage. You're flying VFR in your commercial training so you really shouldn't be looking at the dials for more than 5% of the time.
Unless you jag yourself an airline job with a couple of hundred hours (HIGHLY unlikely)......sorry mate , it's off to GA and all the fun that it entails!!!.
GFS/Oxford wouldn't prepare you any better than any other "reputable" school for an airline job so I'd be on this forum, ringing mates in GA, going for a drive around the traps to try for your first GA job now....not when you're finished.

"As for the original question posted You will find that that a licence is a licence at the end of the day and no one really cares if you flew glass or steam but your future employer will be expecting you to be able to handle yourself or adapt quickly to unfamiliar aircraft and strips. My advice is to get out of your comfort zone and get familiar with other aircraft ie 206/210 and find an instructor who will show you the in's and outs of a real operational enviroment"
Probably the best advice given here I think.
Good luck....any further questions., PM me:ok:

I met a guy who went through GFS and I must say the first time I saw him fly I had never seen anything like it.

The methodical out-loud checks typical of a multi crew environment were apparent, the briefs, reciting figures off his head he knew to heart, flawless radio transmissions...but then..

A gun-ho thinker, no mechanical common sense on how to take care of the machine that is keeping you in the sky, no appreciation for the beauty of flight instead a reliance on the electronics that keep the plane in order for you and the list doesn't stop there.

I am in no way generalising all who come out of GFS/Oxford however if these are the habits that have been picked up along the way it wont take long to come unstuck. You might find yourself a gig but whether you last is another thing.

I agree with the point raised about "how does a company prepare you for airline operations".

Having now spent 18 months in a major airline flying 744 after the GA path I have noticed the following.
1) A 300 page Ops manual for an airline really at the end of the day is set out no differently than a respectable GA / regional airline. It has the same ole waffle and blah blah blah that comes with writing a legal document.

2) The airline looks after your duty times and manages your renewals and medical expiry dates. They tell you with enough notice to sort it out.

3) Recency is taken care of (to a point)

4) You have a fraction of the things you needed to consider and worry about than when your flying GA and regionals


So really, how do you teach people a person to prepare for the airlines when really its nowhere near as difficult as GA. The things I experienced in GA as well really have helped in alot of bigger picture things that Ive so far experienced in my limited time in the Airlines....and that includes gravel operations and steam driven instruments.

how much is a c172 dual there?

soseg: Your points are semi valid, but be honest - you don't really know, because you haven't flown anywhere else, you've just heard "on the airwaves", "from a mate" about how it goes on somewhere else.

I agree that it is for the most part down to the individual and their commitment and abilities, but there are a lot (and an increasing number) of sausages being churned out of Oxford who are not taught to think for themselves and are lacking in real GA experience. The gravel runway at YOLA is not real GA experience btw.

I can assure you nkand learning to fly a G1000 172 in a flying school compared to Airline operations is like chalk and cheese.

The best way to prepare yourself for Airline operations is to go and get some experience. You will encounter bad weather, tech issues and unruly passengers which will develop your decision making skills as a future Airline pilot.

At the end of the day you fly the aircraft how your boss wants the aircraft flown and every company has different expectations and rules of thumb. It's all about being able to adapt your flying to take into account how you are being told to operate the aircraft.

I would suggest you are being given an unreal perspective of the industry which will only come as a rude shock when you finally learn what it really is.

Coming up through the GA ranks I thought it was a novelty to have a HSI and RMI instead of a DG and Fixed card ADF! A 430 was considered a luxury but a G1000??? Sheeeeeesh

Goblin - let alone something relevant on that RMI ...

Maybe compare the G1000 info to a WAC chart ... no vtc's out here.

soseg. Stop and think. Everyone here is giving their opinion. But it sounds like everyone here has done GA in some form. To think you know better than them on what will place you in a good postion in the industry is naive and arrogant. People are trying to help you see out of the bubble that flying schools surround their students in, I wish I had been told these facts of life as it would have eased the shock and frustration of GA.

As for your statement about your experience into unsealed strips, I can't comment alot as I haven't seen them. But your a student, how many tight, dirt strips have you been on.

As someone who went to GFS for most of my training and to another smaller GA school for the rest of my training here's my 2cents.

I found GFS to be a good school overall and they are very SOP orientated. I did my training there back before they got the glass cockpits so I can't comment on those but the 172's we flew were latest models and had all the latest equipment.

As has been said the fees were/are very high and really, the only thing you're paying extra for as opposed to another school is the equipment you fly. The std of training was nothing amazing. They, like every other school still had a number of low experienced/airline wannabe instructors so to say the training was any better then another school is wrong. We also had to pay a $2000 administration fee as part of our course which at the time I didn't question but now look back at and shake my head at.

I then went to another school for further training and I started to regret paying all that money to GFS for the privilege of flying their new 172's around.

The training at the new school was just as good and the SOP's were just as good. The only difference now, was that the aircraft were considerably older, and of course the prices were literally half of what they were with GFS. I could have saved $30,000 if only I'd done all my training at this new smaller school.

I also found the new aircraft at GFS had a negative impact on flying actual industry aircraft. One example is one time, when I was flying an older model 172, the alternator light came on and I didn't have a clue as to what to do. Because nothing ever broke in the sparkling new GFS machines we were never taught how to deal with any problems such as these.

So while GFS was in no way a bad school, If I did my time again I would def. not go there as you can get the same product and better realistic industry aircraft experience from going to a smaller outfit and all for half the price!

No worries soseg, have it your way mate.

The funniest thing about Oxford students is that they can go through life never having had to refuel a plane themselves...

Doesn't it just come on a Shell truck!?


Last time I flew at what was then GFS, a G1000 172 was $240 an hour solo, probably over 300 dual. So probably now $300 solo, $400 dual :ugh:

Soseg,

Come on reply some more, because its really entertaining to watch young guys with little experience get all wound up on pprune.

Oh and can you make your replies a little longer!

This is awesome. Thanks for the enlightenment soseg. Keep it up, very entertaining in a laugh out loud, did I once think like that sort of way.

GG you don't know sh1t. A 172 is sooooo like a jet. Just put a cardboard FMC in between the two front seats and I couldn't tell the difference

Fonzie, good balanced post.

Ah yes, the "flyaway" of course, how could I forget. Such invaluable straight line experience that is. I guess that is useful for the airlines though.

Look forward to working with you one day soseg. You can shout out the SOPs while I hook up the CD player on the Audio AUX IN.... :8

A CD player, Flypy, you should be ashamed of yourself listening to music on a CD PLAYER WHILST FLYING!!!!! THAT IS AN UTTER DISGRACE, PILOTS LIKE YOU SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT AND SHOT, Cos an Ipod works much better. :}

Soseg,

thought id pm you but more pertinent to say it here.

Don't worry about these ********, they are all whingers who probably have gotten nowhere in their careers and are extremely jealous. I've been flying for 4 years and have come across many of the same people who post on this thread in real life and its people often who have a chip on their shoulder who feel the need to degrade organizations and demote people for flying at a reputable school.

Can give an example of some guy i met who was insistent on convincing me to do my flying at a school in port macquarie- no matter what i said, everywhere else taught IFR flying poorly and youd get nowhere if you didnt go to this place etc etc. Narrow minded opiniated people like this posting above.

What i can say is- whether those above like it or not- aviation is changing rapidly and MPL is coming to Australia whether you care or not. Looking at qf link traineeship of 07/08 which yielded quite a few of Oxford graduates and other programs no doubt to come in the future things have markedly changed. If I go to say Qantas in 2-3 yrs and they can see I have trained at the same organization they put their cadets through and their qf link trainees dont you think it would be ringing bells about the way a person was trained- considering thats how they wanted their cadets trained!

I can totally understand that GA experience is invaluable and from my perspective I can't comment on the GA scene- and hence I haven't!!! But to say the sort of thing said above about Oxford without having EVER been to the place, EVER trained here or observed ops is absurb and downright ridiculous.

I invite anyone who wishes to see the flying school to send me a PM and i will personally show you around and tell you what it is and is not- but one things for sure- the misconception of the school as posted above is pretty evident!

CDs ??? Ipods ??? What the hell are you blokes doing ??? Aren't you listening out for the engine of the V-tail Bonanza about to chop you in half from behind ? :=

BP

Only on the ground, but I'd love to see him catch me once airborne:}:}:}

the Dr doesn't seem to come to Vic very much..


And right on time, nkand comes back. Mate, I flew at GFS/Oxford too, I could run the tour too.... "This is where you bend over, this where you wait with 30 other cadets for your flight, here are the stifling un airconditioned classrooms where you'll do your theory lessons"...

oops, maybe they have AC now.

I don't know what part of soseg's life we're supposed to be jealous of, but if its training at Oxford..... nah I'm not jealous of him. If he had a job, maybe I could find some green envy in my heart, somewhere. :)

nkand, you're awesome, 4 years and only just getting your MECIR? I wish I could be near you to absorb some of your awesomeness. Good luck with your MPL. When you get it you can be a SO and get the ATIS and help out in first class when they're a bit busy...

Actually retard i didnt have the money to fly when i first started flying so i worked and flew once every 1-2 months. Hence why its been a while. Recently enrolled in a full time course.

go get a life ********