$50000+ Twin Driver??
 

I was having a discussion with guy looking through resumes at the company I work for about recruitment recently. It seems the flood of resumes is no more, in fact we have to ask the few people who do apply if they know of others that would be looking for work!!

I know there has been alot of discussion on the 'actual' or 'percieved' pilot shortage recently but there hasn't been a lot of ideas on how to keep people in GA any longer than 500 multi (which comes up very quick now).

I'm sure there would be a few companies out there with contracts that require pilots with 500 multi, or close to, flying piston twins. The company I work for does and they started paying a bonus for people with more than 400 multi.

Recent applicants for direct entry twin drivers (because no one in company has the hours yet to be moved up!) with baron and cheiftain endo's had minimal time on type, but a start, and were looking for $50K!!!

Three potential applicants and all refused.....
(all positions were fulltime, award rates, not remote, immediate start and as far as I know we don't have a bad reputation to scare them away)

Any Ideas?? (within reason, this is still GA..:))

Award update? maybe $35K single, $45K twin IFR, and $50K+ with 250-300hrs multi??

Conditions? I guess this is still largely dependent on the company and the attitudes of everyone involved, eg what do you do when you're not flying?

RDO's? anyone work on a fixed roster at a charter company? or are they just orgainised ad hoc

Career path? I know I like to know where I'm heading even if its a rough idea. (eg,twins/new base at the end of the wet, you should have the hours by then...)


I know it's PPrune but can we make it serious?:}

What impact have people found with people changing carrees into GA from other business ventures?

If, hypothetically (ha), someone with 16 years in another industry and 8 years of management experience decided to pursue a GA carreer with no intent of moving onto the airlines (wife, kids, etc.), is there an expectation that they would end up on better pay out of the gate?

I know $50k sounds like a lot for a twin job in a Cheiften dropping freight but someone such as described above brings a lot more to the table than a 500TT newbie (and they are paying $50k in tax alone right now).

Just wondering.

Cross industry comparison

23 yo female, basic HR truck license doing deliveries in local urban area = taking home $300/day after tax. Five day week.

Admittedly its casual rates and its not flying but its not a bad earner and there's plenty of positions available.

HI AE

What is the award rate these days that people are refusing?

THX

If its in alice not for $100k!

Multi Engine minimum wage:

UTBNI 3360kg - $37,699
3360kg to 5660kg - 39,306
5560kg to 8500kg - 41,592
8500kg to 12000kg - 44,930
12000kg to 15000kg - 48,477
15000kg to 19000kg - 53,050

Plus, the allowances, including but not limited to, $1128 for piston aircraft on commuter operations; $4909 for turboprop aircraft, $4510 for being required to have a CIR.

ICUS
 

$50k is not a lot for a chieftain pilot. It should be more. I know of a pilot who was earning $70k flying piston twins a couple of years ago.
But will not happen while there are lots of newbies, and some operators can sell it as ICUS while doing charter. Operators also have to compete with some organisations that raise money by public subscription to help cover costs.

17yo,first job, Darwhine, no quals,fixing pooter software, $50k plus

Arr.

Here be yer problem. If all ye pay is award wage, that not be somethin' to be proud of. Award wage be a minimum, not a target.

Fer all the bellyachin' that be goin' on about the AFAP, the minimum wage be simply the minimum you can be payin yer wee pirates and still bein' complyin' with the law. What ye should be payin' them, is what they're worth to you. Not what ye'd like them to be worth... not what they think they're worth, but what they are worth. And if ye want that good reputation to be stayin good, ye better be payin' a fair piece of eight more than the award.

Arr.

Pay Peanuts??
 

There are a couple of companies paying 50+ for cabin drivers in Darwin. I think Hardy's is paying low 50's for their titan drivers..

...and their pax spill that amount of grog a year....

How much had they just spent on the licence required to do the job ?

How much did they earn while doing the licence ?

How did they finance the training, big bank loan in the background prehaps ?

You are seeking to employ a skilled professional, have you compared the conditions you're offering to other skilled professions ?

How true.

Before the current shortage, were you paying the award or exploiting new CPLs keen to gain hours ?

Does your company expect a reasonable return on its capital but complains when pilots want a reasonable return for the time and money they have put in to their training. ?

Think about it. :ugh:

Aviation_enthus, I know someone with some multi who might be intersted if you're still looking. PM me if you want

My, my, my. How the tables have turned. For as long as I've known Australian GA most operators have taken pilots to the cleaners. Nice to see them having to play by the rules for a change.

Well...
 

...we have been trying to do the right thing, offerring well in excess of the award for an "entry level" job.

...That's well in excess of the TWIN award to fly a SINGLE.

PLUS flight pay (paid extra to actually do your job!!!)

PLUS end of year bonus of about a month's salary.

Total comes to over $50k to fly a C206.

Bloke I spoke to a couple of weeks ago said... "gees...not much, is it?" :ugh:

I will take it! A 206 job that is.

That's about you'd pay for a forklift driver. Weeks training, pair of steel capped boots and you're away. Total cost under $500.

Even for a basic single engine VFR CPL you're looking at $35 000 and a years training, maybe a bit of casual bar work but you won't earn much in that time.

Get real, pay your pilots what they are worth. :E

Thanks Metro Man! Hooray! All our business problems are solved!

Why didn't we think of that?

If ONLY we'd been paying our 206 drivers $100k from the start - NOW I see where we've been going wrong.... :ugh:

Career swap
 

Well I'm one of them Flog - swapped a desk for a cockpit a few years ago, took a 50% cut in salary, but dont regret it. :)

I am looking to stay in GA and hope to be driving decent twins around the countryside sooner rather than later. And I am pretty keen to be able to stay put, so not likely to be running off to the airlines.

And yes, I am able to use some of the skills I collected along the way driving a desk in my GA work - it has gotten me a pay increase to be able to do things like customer liaison, document preparation, records management etc.

Surveillance Australia tried paying their pilots properly http://www.pprune.org/forums/d-g-gen...australia.html

Seems to have worked for them. $100 000 bit much for a C206 driver, suggest around $70 000. Comparable to an aircraft refueller.

Have a look a what a newly qualified accountant or similar professional would expect as a starting wage. Give them the standard GA employer sob story about keeping costs down, will lead to better things, "I'm giving you a start." etc and see how far it gets you.

Most GA employers took full advantage of the abundance of pilots a few years back to keep their costs down. You had it good for years, don't expect any sympathy now.

Yep operators have screwed over pilots in GA for 30+ years, how can they now wonder why there is noone left to employ? Maybe it's time to close the doors or get some proper equipment that people might want to fly such as a King Air.

Sadly...
 

...while ever the competition can pay peanuts, we have limited room to move to keep our costs competitive.

We try to make it up in other ways... like paying in Cashews and Macadamias :}

Have you considered that if you pay proper salaries, the available pilots will choose to work for you rather than your competitors. Then when a charter comes up you will be the only one who can do it because your competitors won't have anyone available to actually do the flying even though they've got the aircraft ?

In the past the pilot has been the lowest paid person on board, nurses, miners, rig pigs, telstra technicians, electricity board workers etc all earnt far more. We've been grossly underpaid in the past which benefitted employers but has now led to a shortage. Double edged sword ?

Metroman,

...thanks for the condescending tone - my turn.

Have you considered that there is more to than that? :confused:

Operators or pilots? Or both?
 

Twenty years ago wages in GA were about the same as they are today. When I came to Alice Springs 30 odd years ago, my employer paid to shift my whole family and furniture etc. I was paid award rates or better and had annual airfares paid for me and my family to the capital city of my choice.

What have you blokes done to the industry???

Pilots have effectively been subsidising GA companies by paying for their own training and working for low wages. Why don't you take someone on, pay for their CPL and pay a training wage while they're studying. Some airlines do this via cadetships.

Other industries train people with return of service expected and pay a training wage. Those that expect you to arrive fully qualified offer good starting pay and quick progression.

Which other industry costs so much to get into, and the employers expect you to work for so little.

As far as I'm aware the company has been paying the award for a long time (someone else on here said 'since before it was cool').

A bonus is offered once you reach 400 multi (total). A lot of people already have an initial endo eg B58/55 or C310 and further endo's are given when required.

I've had a few comments that loyalty shown by a good employee and returned will make a healthy relationship. I know this is common sense but we all know it isn't so common....

Thanks for your infomation re wages, I fly props doing sunny tourist work. I wouldn't even concider getting out of bed for those wages. All single engine piston driver mates I know in oz get more doing day vfr. Award is minium legal wage, and don't think it's great paying it. Remember, $1 short, it's a federal crime.:{

Companies that have low turn over, it's not just higher pay, but company culture, one of doing it right. You will never stop progression. If you are in a "remote" place, well, you are climbing up a very steep hill indeed.

Good luck with your operation.:) Hope you get crew.

As it has been said before, "Award wage=minimum wage." Funny how a good company is one who pays award, therefore minimum, wage. :hmm:

Bloggs: "Mate, I hear you got your first pilot gig."
Smitty: "Yeah, for a real good company, they pay minimum wage!"
Bloggs: "Don't they all have too?"

Doesn't sound that great when you say it how it is.

Another Perspective
 

back in 1999/01 I was CP of a CHTR company flying Chieftains (3175kg) - I was paid $35,000 which was better than award at the time. Sure beat the $150/wk I was paid as a Gr3 instructor before that! :eek:

At that time, other guys landing their first Chieftain RPT gig (on less money) considered they had "made it" and would almost all go out and buy their first new car. Whatever turns you on, I suppose.

If you multiply that by average CPI of 3% for the intervening years, and 5% for this year, that comes up to $42,600 for 2008 - still above award.

As a matter of sociological interest (ie discussion point, not provocation):
Horatio is paying his C206 drivers $50k - The CPI is the CPI - what has happened that suddenly makes everyone (including me) think they deserve a pay rise of nearly 10%? :confused:

AV Enthus

Check your PM's. Interested in your opinion. :ok:

back in 1989 I was paid $36/hr to peddle a C402 around the countryside!!!

Dr :8

It should be noted that paying the award wage, also needs to include the instrument rating allowance etc. This is often not the case, as often only the base rate is paid. It makes a big difference.:)

Maybe because the original $35,000 you quoted for CP of a Charter company flying the chief is 10% too low to begin with regardless of what the hapless "award" states. (In my mind 10% isn't even enough)

In '99 I was playing computer games in between naps on the couch at AirServices and being paid $45,000.

Seems unfair.

I'd like to be paid in almonds, they're worth a bit now. :}:}

In 1993 I was getting $14/hr as a Control Desk Operator at the Sydney Opera House. The guys still there are on $25 now. I guess some jobs are ruled by what people will accept.

sc

GA today is probably the most dysfunctional industry in Australia, at least at its lower rungs.:mad:

Its charges are based on what it thinks the client can afford, not on what is the true cost of the operation; it pays lip service to the GA Award (I think only the NT, ACT and perhaps WA is it mandatory); it is mostly run by enthusiasts who started their business to get their passion for flying paid by someone else; and it has no idea how it is going to fund its capital replacement when its finally flogged its aircraft to death.:ugh:

Pilots wages are but one small aspect of the whole problem.:mad:

By way of contrast when I learnt to fly (nearly 40 years ago now) the aircraft were new, the instructors were a mixture of full and part time but the full time ones were paid sufficiently to raise a family without resorting to a second job. Admittedly, noone was going to get rich on it but it was a damn sight better than what is on offer today in GA.

For comparison First year as RAAf Officer Cadet Under training = approx $40k Taxable income. Rent $130 per week. Wage will double after gaining "Wings". Zero Training costs although not much job security till training completed, fair trade IMO.

Very true
 

Plovett has summed it up very well. There are also serious engineering problems, due to lack of money. GA is impoverished.

Some of this can be fixed, but this would require a serious attitudinal change. It is necessary to treat the GA industry with the respect it deserves. (shock horror)

GA is not just some city based flying schools that are only there to do ab initio training in order to build up a pool of airline wannabies. It is not just private aeroplanes owned by a few city silvertails.

It seems that is what most australians think it is.

And I become annoyed when I hear City based, government employees referring to the "GAFA" and saaying things like "if you are a gA pilot who connot find your way without gps" or "don't you think you should install adsb and be more professional."

There are some commercial anomolies in the outback (mainly caused by governments) which are hindering GA, and we have had a great influx of pilots and operators who are here only for short term gain.

Australian GA has not had a sound commercial base for a long time. But it can. And it must.

I remember getting paid $35,000 as a line pilot on PA31 in 2001 - which I thought was good until I discovered award was about $39,000 (but nobody paid that anyway). Mate as a CP you were being taken.

So $39,000 with yearly CPI increase takes us up to about $49,000.

There needs to be legislative changes to take away many of the 'cheap options'
if GA is to survive. As there is no replacement for the piston twin market really IFR charter should go to turbine only. However as long as people are driven by cost they will always go the cheapest option. I have seen some of Australians richest companies choose to fly in a 25 year old piston twin over a twin turbine on grounds of expense. Military did the same in the NT. They replaced a charter king air with some busted arse piston twin. If GA is going to survive they need to progress. In what other industry would you pay people $35000 to operate equipment that was built in the late 60 and 70's?