Question on minimums and applications
Thread Starter
Question on minimums and applications
Just want to ask people's/employers views about receiving an application for a position if you don't hold ALL the minimums. Read below before abusing me!
I know a few operators where this is a big NO NO and if they receive something and it doesn't match there minimums it's straight to the bin.
The position I'm looking into, I hold all min's except I'm 50 hours short of 'multi engine command under IFR plan' This is a new one I hadn't been expecting. I found it was actually a bit difficult to calculate considering there are some IFR plans where I have logged a big fat 0 in the I/F column.
My main question to the experts is, in the current climate (whatever that is) Do operators want to here from prospective people? Or will I be wasting their time and then possibly destroying a possible job down the track by not being able to READ their minimums?
Any comments welcomed. . .
GA Driver
I know a few operators where this is a big NO NO and if they receive something and it doesn't match there minimums it's straight to the bin.
The position I'm looking into, I hold all min's except I'm 50 hours short of 'multi engine command under IFR plan' This is a new one I hadn't been expecting. I found it was actually a bit difficult to calculate considering there are some IFR plans where I have logged a big fat 0 in the I/F column.
My main question to the experts is, in the current climate (whatever that is) Do operators want to here from prospective people? Or will I be wasting their time and then possibly destroying a possible job down the track by not being able to READ their minimums?
Any comments welcomed. . .
GA Driver
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Minimums are usually that - minimums ie 'don't apply until you have met the minimum'.
Most Ops manuals will have a clause that allows the CP to change the minimum requirement at his/her discretion - but don't expect any of them to do that to employ you, unfortunately.
Having said that, It's not a bad idea to establish contact with a prospective employer prior to getting the minimums. It is easier to do this with smaller companies, but companies with a bigger bureaucracy are often alot more difficult to make 'personal' contact with.
I would suggest giving a prospective employers' CP a call and try and make an appointment for a chat and to explain that you are short of their criteria, but once you meet these criteria would be interested in being considered for a position should one arise, and clarify exactly what is or may be required for you to gain a spot. It shows interest and also gives you an excuse to make appearances from time to time as you are getting closer to their requirements/your goals. Just don't expect to be employed until you have 'met the minimum requirements'.
Flight 'under the IFR' is a different animal to 'IF' time. That is, you can count time flown on an IFR plan and not have done IF during those flights. Just don't mix the two up.
Hope that makes some sense to you.
Good luck!
Most Ops manuals will have a clause that allows the CP to change the minimum requirement at his/her discretion - but don't expect any of them to do that to employ you, unfortunately.
Having said that, It's not a bad idea to establish contact with a prospective employer prior to getting the minimums. It is easier to do this with smaller companies, but companies with a bigger bureaucracy are often alot more difficult to make 'personal' contact with.
I would suggest giving a prospective employers' CP a call and try and make an appointment for a chat and to explain that you are short of their criteria, but once you meet these criteria would be interested in being considered for a position should one arise, and clarify exactly what is or may be required for you to gain a spot. It shows interest and also gives you an excuse to make appearances from time to time as you are getting closer to their requirements/your goals. Just don't expect to be employed until you have 'met the minimum requirements'.
Flight 'under the IFR' is a different animal to 'IF' time. That is, you can count time flown on an IFR plan and not have done IF during those flights. Just don't mix the two up.
Hope that makes some sense to you.
Good luck!
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Jet_A_Knight is correct about the IFR plan time.
Any flight you have done under the IFR is what they need here, and not actual IF time.
I have over 2500 hrs planned IFR, but just over 150 hrs of actual instrument time.
Check your logbook carefully and see if you can find all of your IFR flights. I used to keep a separate record of my IFR planned time at the back of my logbook until I reached the required hours.
Also, if that is your only shortfall, I would be applying now so that when you do achieve the requisite hours, that operator will know that you have been keen to work for them for a while, and not just blown through the door on the day your 50 hrs comes up.
Good Luck.
Any flight you have done under the IFR is what they need here, and not actual IF time.
I have over 2500 hrs planned IFR, but just over 150 hrs of actual instrument time.
Check your logbook carefully and see if you can find all of your IFR flights. I used to keep a separate record of my IFR planned time at the back of my logbook until I reached the required hours.
Also, if that is your only shortfall, I would be applying now so that when you do achieve the requisite hours, that operator will know that you have been keen to work for them for a while, and not just blown through the door on the day your 50 hrs comes up.
Good Luck.
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GA Driver,
The way I interpret
is not IF time rather, time on an IFR Flight Plan. Two distinctly different things.
All my flying time for the past 8 years has been on IFR flight plans, so that's about 5000 hrs. Yet only a small proportion of that has been IF time!
'multi engine command under IFR plan'
All my flying time for the past 8 years has been on IFR flight plans, so that's about 5000 hrs. Yet only a small proportion of that has been IF time!
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Like Dan wrote regarding the IFR plan. Read it as "IFR procedures", as that's what they're interested in. So if you did a 3 hour flight on an IFR plan, but did 0 I.F. (cavok day), it's still 3 hours IFR procedures, and counts towards your totals.
Sadly, GA Driver, an increasing number of employers are going the way of electronic applications. That means that if you don't cross the line (experience-wise), you won't get a look in until you do. Kind of takes away the personal (merit) side of things.
With airlines going for the 'leaner' look, that usually means shedding people from admin roles such as screening every single application on merit. It's more cost effective to do it electronically so that staff can be used more productively in other areas.
Good luck.
Sadly, GA Driver, an increasing number of employers are going the way of electronic applications. That means that if you don't cross the line (experience-wise), you won't get a look in until you do. Kind of takes away the personal (merit) side of things.
With airlines going for the 'leaner' look, that usually means shedding people from admin roles such as screening every single application on merit. It's more cost effective to do it electronically so that staff can be used more productively in other areas.
Good luck.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the responses.
I understood the difference between the two 'plan' and 'actual' I/F times, just a bit perplexed as to why an operator would want to know this and not actual I/F in flight??
Anybody know? Insurance I pressume??
I hold the dreaded CASA logbook, so it looks like it's back to the start, see if I can remeber if I logged an IFR plan 2 years ago!!!!
Thanks again.
GA Driver
I understood the difference between the two 'plan' and 'actual' I/F times, just a bit perplexed as to why an operator would want to know this and not actual I/F in flight??
Anybody know? Insurance I pressume??
I hold the dreaded CASA logbook, so it looks like it's back to the start, see if I can remeber if I logged an IFR plan 2 years ago!!!!
Thanks again.
GA Driver
Just out of interest, the pel-air website asks for both "planned IFR", and also "actual IFR time" as part of their application process.
Hope it helps and have a good one,
Ops.
Hope it helps and have a good one,
Ops.
Thread Starter
Thanks everyone for all the replies, I think that may have just cleared it all up for me.
Until next time at least!
Just when you think you've got the right hours. . .
GA Driver
Until next time at least!
Just when you think you've got the right hours. . .
GA Driver
Can't do any harm
in applying if you don't have the hours. Say on your cover letter, at the current rate I should have your minimums in October (or whatever). If it goes in the bin, so be it.
Then when you have the minimums, you can say that you have been wanting to work for company XYZ for a long time and "since our last correspondence, I now have your minimums" etc.
And planned IFR vs IF time...
good comments above (except the last one ).
Planned IFR: As it says. Can be in VMC and no cloud in the sky.
Actual IF time: time of piloting the aircraft with sole reference to the instruments. Dark nights with no moon and no horizon do not count, which is a crock of sh!t in my book, but them's the rules.
Then when you have the minimums, you can say that you have been wanting to work for company XYZ for a long time and "since our last correspondence, I now have your minimums" etc.
And planned IFR vs IF time...
good comments above (except the last one
).Planned IFR: As it says. Can be in VMC and no cloud in the sky.
Actual IF time: time of piloting the aircraft with sole reference to the instruments. Dark nights with no moon and no horizon do not count, which is a crock of sh!t in my book, but them's the rules.
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Have a read of Reg.170 to 174D as to what a VFR flight is and 175 to 181 as to what a IFR flight is. I can not see the Moon mentioned in either.
Amongst other things. If you can avoid other aircraft visually (continuously) then it can be a VFR flight. If you only can avoid other aircraft procedurally then I suggest you have a VFR problem. If you can see the other aircraft continuously at 10+Km then it’s not IMC, Moon or no Moon.
I think the 50 hours is less of an employment impediment than the ability to interpret the requirements the same way the Chief Pilot does. Perhaps the CP interprets ‘planned IFR’ time as opposed to ‘unplanned IFR’. I don’t think you can say on the way to the airport. “I’m planning to do this flight as an IFR flight to increase my employment prospects” and then, once you have read the forecast file VFR, and still count it towards “planned IFR time”
Amongst other things. If you can avoid other aircraft visually (continuously) then it can be a VFR flight. If you only can avoid other aircraft procedurally then I suggest you have a VFR problem. If you can see the other aircraft continuously at 10+Km then it’s not IMC, Moon or no Moon.
I think the 50 hours is less of an employment impediment than the ability to interpret the requirements the same way the Chief Pilot does. Perhaps the CP interprets ‘planned IFR’ time as opposed to ‘unplanned IFR’. I don’t think you can say on the way to the airport. “I’m planning to do this flight as an IFR flight to increase my employment prospects” and then, once you have read the forecast file VFR, and still count it towards “planned IFR time”
G'Day BIK
Thanks for pointing out my lazy definitions. 
It would appear that I have not kept track of those little blue and yellow things that float around in the back of the AIPs.
There was one back a few years (late 90's) - a blue one - that had instructions and clarifications for filling in logbooks.
I would swear on a 6 pack of Boags that it had instructions along the line of "time spent above overcast or at night in VMC do not count". So when I am out the back of Bourke on a dark moonless night, in the circuit and there are NO external lights for a hundred miles and my night vision is shot because of the EFIS, even though I am on instuments, I am still in VMC. If there was a light 5kms away I could see it. Thus, according to the Circular it cannot go in the logbook as IMC
However the AIC is no longer there...and I even checked on line.
Now I cannot think where else it would have gone to... but it was the rules once (albeit quasi rules).
G'Day again I fly
My reference to the moon was purely to paint the picture of the aforementioned dark night. You would know as well as anyone that with a full bright moon in the outback it is almost as good as sunlight at times.
And I fully agree with you about the wording of planned IFR etc. I am sure that the intent from operators/CPs in job candidates is that they have stooged around under the IFR making appropriate radio calls and position reports etc. But that's unproveable really in a candidate, but would be obvious (to a point) in a checkride.
Cheers
CS
It would appear that I have not kept track of those little blue and yellow things that float around in the back of the AIPs.
There was one back a few years (late 90's) - a blue one - that had instructions and clarifications for filling in logbooks.
I would swear on a 6 pack of Boags that it had instructions along the line of "time spent above overcast or at night in VMC do not count". So when I am out the back of Bourke on a dark moonless night, in the circuit and there are NO external lights for a hundred miles and my night vision is shot because of the EFIS, even though I am on instuments, I am still in VMC. If there was a light 5kms away I could see it. Thus, according to the Circular it cannot go in the logbook as IMC
However the AIC is no longer there...and I even checked on line.
Now I cannot think where else it would have gone to...
but it was the rules once (albeit quasi rules).G'Day again I fly
My reference to the moon was purely to paint the picture of the aforementioned dark night. You would know as well as anyone that with a full bright moon in the outback it is almost as good as sunlight at times.
And I fully agree with you about the wording of planned IFR etc. I am sure that the intent from operators/CPs in job candidates is that they have stooged around under the IFR making appropriate radio calls and position reports etc. But that's unproveable really in a candidate, but would be obvious (to a point) in a checkride.
Cheers
CS
Last edited by compressor stall; 14th Aug 2003 at 22:37.
