Foolish to become a commercial pilot?
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Foolish to become a commercial pilot?
Why would you want to be a pilot nowadays? Looks like the best of aviation is a thing of the past. Here are a few of my observations:
-> The shear cost of training and the ammount of BS you have to put up with during training.
-> The high probability of being unemployed after training.
-> Working in G.A. for 'X' ammount of time for less money than the average unskilled factory hand who paid nothing for his/her training.
-> Even if you manage to get into an airline, there appears that wages & conditions have dropped substantially.
-> The shear uncertainty that surrounds your pilot job. No one is safe, even the guys in the majors.
-> Time away from friends & family. In my humble opinion this would be the worst aspect of being a commercial pilot. It's hard to have a husband/wife (&) children when you are away from them so much.
-> Also the majority of pilots I've come across (both G.A. and Airline) would not think twice about compromising your situation to only benefit themselves. Gross generalisation? Well I know there are some "good guys" out there, but I'd really have to admit that most that I've come across wouldn't know the meaning of such words as: honour, integrity, loyalty, true friendship, etc.
Call me weak, but I don't think I could put up with the above just for the love of flying. I love my flying but who in their rightful mind would put up with the above for just that, the love of flying?
I've decided to pursue a more stable and better paid career and fly privately occasionally for the shear love of it. It is true that all industries have their risks but it is also true that aviation is riskier than most. I see myself as one of those "nice guys" and know that I wouldn't be able to put up with being exploited by the company I worked for and by the pilots around me. I really did believe that I'd be able to bring some goodness to this industry, even a small bit but in all honesty...I can't be bothered. This industry is a loss, with every person like me there is 10, maybe 100 other people who are doing their best to destroy this industry. Everywhere I look there is someone trying to bring down another. Everyone for themselves. This happens in other industries, but with a combination of some of the above points I fancy my chances elsewhere. So the "bad guys" win? Well I hope you all have a most enjoyable life together. As for those "good guys" out there I wish you all the best. I really do hope that things could be turned around for the better.
So who would be foolish enough to become a pilot nowadays?
-> The shear cost of training and the ammount of BS you have to put up with during training.
-> The high probability of being unemployed after training.
-> Working in G.A. for 'X' ammount of time for less money than the average unskilled factory hand who paid nothing for his/her training.
-> Even if you manage to get into an airline, there appears that wages & conditions have dropped substantially.
-> The shear uncertainty that surrounds your pilot job. No one is safe, even the guys in the majors.
-> Time away from friends & family. In my humble opinion this would be the worst aspect of being a commercial pilot. It's hard to have a husband/wife (&) children when you are away from them so much.
-> Also the majority of pilots I've come across (both G.A. and Airline) would not think twice about compromising your situation to only benefit themselves. Gross generalisation? Well I know there are some "good guys" out there, but I'd really have to admit that most that I've come across wouldn't know the meaning of such words as: honour, integrity, loyalty, true friendship, etc.
Call me weak, but I don't think I could put up with the above just for the love of flying. I love my flying but who in their rightful mind would put up with the above for just that, the love of flying?
I've decided to pursue a more stable and better paid career and fly privately occasionally for the shear love of it. It is true that all industries have their risks but it is also true that aviation is riskier than most. I see myself as one of those "nice guys" and know that I wouldn't be able to put up with being exploited by the company I worked for and by the pilots around me. I really did believe that I'd be able to bring some goodness to this industry, even a small bit but in all honesty...I can't be bothered. This industry is a loss, with every person like me there is 10, maybe 100 other people who are doing their best to destroy this industry. Everywhere I look there is someone trying to bring down another. Everyone for themselves. This happens in other industries, but with a combination of some of the above points I fancy my chances elsewhere. So the "bad guys" win? Well I hope you all have a most enjoyable life together. As for those "good guys" out there I wish you all the best. I really do hope that things could be turned around for the better.
So who would be foolish enough to become a pilot nowadays?
Victa
From reading pprune over the past few years, little has really changed in the past 25 years. Even the airframes are the same
I made the mistake of pulling out in the late 70's because there seemed to be no future in aviation. High unemployment, poor pay, little airline recruiting, oil crisis, poor RAAF morale/low retention rates etc etc. (The main difference was probably that the aircraft in GA were 'newer' and there was some respect for DCA.)
A mate persevered and retired a few years back as a senior long haul captain with 25,000 hours.
The easy 'better paid' option appears good at first...but once the family comes along and starts chipping away at your wallet there'll be fewer opportunities for private flying.
And the problems you so accurately identify within aviation you find are still with you no matter which industry you work in. Something to do with our competitive spirit I guess.
Eventually you may end up holding responsible and possibly prestigious positions that look great from the outside...but on the inside, all you really want to do is pack it all in and go flying.
The choice is yours.
But if I had the chance to turn the clock back 25 years, I know which way I'd be going.
(Actually, I'd take the well paid job to fund further ratings and build hours so I'm ready when opportunity knocks
)
From reading pprune over the past few years, little has really changed in the past 25 years. Even the airframes are the same
I made the mistake of pulling out in the late 70's because there seemed to be no future in aviation. High unemployment, poor pay, little airline recruiting, oil crisis, poor RAAF morale/low retention rates etc etc. (The main difference was probably that the aircraft in GA were 'newer' and there was some respect for DCA.)
A mate persevered and retired a few years back as a senior long haul captain with 25,000 hours.
The easy 'better paid' option appears good at first...but once the family comes along and starts chipping away at your wallet there'll be fewer opportunities for private flying.
And the problems you so accurately identify within aviation you find are still with you no matter which industry you work in. Something to do with our competitive spirit I guess.
Eventually you may end up holding responsible and possibly prestigious positions that look great from the outside...but on the inside, all you really want to do is pack it all in and go flying.
The choice is yours.
But if I had the chance to turn the clock back 25 years, I know which way I'd be going.
(Actually, I'd take the well paid job to fund further ratings and build hours so I'm ready when opportunity knocks
)
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Victa, affirm - I'm hearing ya!
So true.
I think in years to come the 1950's -1990's will be remembered as "The Golden Age" of aviation.
Don't wish to sound like a pessimistic person, but I think it is over.
I read an article recently saying between 1965 and 1975 in the states, both the airline and GA industry grow at a huge 20% PER YEAR, EVERY YEAR. I don't know what the figures back here were but no doubt in the 10-15% range.
What has happened in the last 5 years?
Business travel, once the bread and butter of the airlines has dropped, they reckon (who ever 'they' are) has dropped about 20%, most of this before 9/11 actually. There is now no need now to fly business people across the lands for meetings as you now have internet video conferencing.
People, in this country are travelling less. Read an article last month in the Syd Morning Herald that said people in the last 5 years (especially in wanky Sydney) are spending big dollars on big fancy TV systems. People in Sydney who have friends that have real jobs will tell you that half their friends have invested in these fantastic 10 grand systems rather than go on holidays.
And lets be honest, it is only a matter of time before good old Bush invades someone else and it's off to war again.
Unfortunately, thanks to the big down turn in aviation, for the first time ever, the airline industry is just like GA. That is, too many qualified drivers and not enough jobs.
It appears, at all levels in aviation, it is a management hobby to bend pilots over and get them to grab both ankles with both hands.
Sorry, I think the golden age is over, probably forever, a bit sad really!
So true.
I think in years to come the 1950's -1990's will be remembered as "The Golden Age" of aviation.
Don't wish to sound like a pessimistic person, but I think it is over.
I read an article recently saying between 1965 and 1975 in the states, both the airline and GA industry grow at a huge 20% PER YEAR, EVERY YEAR. I don't know what the figures back here were but no doubt in the 10-15% range.
What has happened in the last 5 years?
Business travel, once the bread and butter of the airlines has dropped, they reckon (who ever 'they' are) has dropped about 20%, most of this before 9/11 actually. There is now no need now to fly business people across the lands for meetings as you now have internet video conferencing.
People, in this country are travelling less. Read an article last month in the Syd Morning Herald that said people in the last 5 years (especially in wanky Sydney) are spending big dollars on big fancy TV systems. People in Sydney who have friends that have real jobs will tell you that half their friends have invested in these fantastic 10 grand systems rather than go on holidays.
And lets be honest, it is only a matter of time before good old Bush invades someone else and it's off to war again.
Unfortunately, thanks to the big down turn in aviation, for the first time ever, the airline industry is just like GA. That is, too many qualified drivers and not enough jobs.
It appears, at all levels in aviation, it is a management hobby to bend pilots over and get them to grab both ankles with both hands.
Sorry, I think the golden age is over, probably forever, a bit sad really!
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Say VICTA,
Whats wrong with working as a 744 F/O earning the better part of $190 000 a year?
Sure there is a lot of conjecture and speculation about pilots wages on these forums but you need to remember that the majority of these posts come from people that are not really qualified to make proper and objective arguments.
They are pilots for gods sake!
There is very little evidence to support a lot of this crap thats been posted on these forums about dwindling wages.
The wages that a pilot earns worldwide amongst reputable and established airlines are excellent and the job is very rewarding.
Don't believe the bull**** so readily. Think man! Use that grey matter and take a long hard look at the reality behind the tripe!
Remember there exist a lot of sour grapes in this business and when someone promises a lot of grapes always bring a small basket!
Whats wrong with working as a 744 F/O earning the better part of $190 000 a year?
Sure there is a lot of conjecture and speculation about pilots wages on these forums but you need to remember that the majority of these posts come from people that are not really qualified to make proper and objective arguments.
They are pilots for gods sake!
There is very little evidence to support a lot of this crap thats been posted on these forums about dwindling wages.
The wages that a pilot earns worldwide amongst reputable and established airlines are excellent and the job is very rewarding.
Don't believe the bull**** so readily. Think man! Use that grey matter and take a long hard look at the reality behind the tripe!
Remember there exist a lot of sour grapes in this business and when someone promises a lot of grapes always bring a small basket!
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But remember it will take you a loong time to get that 744 F/O slot with QF even if you do get in.
And if you do make it, the way the company is going the 190k is more likely to be closer to 90K if what Fartsock has heard comes to fruition. Over the past few years QF have been busy cuttin' the salaries of ground staff and CC by outsourcing and casualising the workforce. They will get around to the pilots in due course by the looks of things.
The future for professional pilots t&c's look bleak imo, in QF anyway.
And if you do make it, the way the company is going the 190k is more likely to be closer to 90K if what Fartsock has heard comes to fruition. Over the past few years QF have been busy cuttin' the salaries of ground staff and CC by outsourcing and casualising the workforce. They will get around to the pilots in due course by the looks of things.
The future for professional pilots t&c's look bleak imo, in QF anyway.
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Exactly how is QF going Bonvol?
You think that spending up to 6 months of the year away from your family is worth $90000 a year?
Where did this figure come from?
Like I said a lot of misguided ill informed tripe gets posted on this forum.
Victa, its up to you to determine whether this job is worth pursuing. At the very least do yourself a big favour and make that determination based on fact and not on the bull**** spun by people who know not what they speak of!
You think that spending up to 6 months of the year away from your family is worth $90000 a year?
Where did this figure come from?
Like I said a lot of misguided ill informed tripe gets posted on this forum.
Victa, its up to you to determine whether this job is worth pursuing. At the very least do yourself a big favour and make that determination based on fact and not on the bull**** spun by people who know not what they speak of!
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Victa
For one simply reason, job satisfaction. It all depends on what you enjoy. I ran a software development business for three years, made a killing and decided to chuck it in for a more enjoyable (and I agree less stable) career. Do I have any regrets, yeah not doing it earlier
Ang
For one simply reason, job satisfaction. It all depends on what you enjoy. I ran a software development business for three years, made a killing and decided to chuck it in for a more enjoyable (and I agree less stable) career. Do I have any regrets, yeah not doing it earlier
Ang
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Victa et al
Why are you asking this question at all?? The only person who knows the correct answer to this question is you.
If it is advice or reassurance that you seek then listen to the people who made the decision 20 years ago to get out. The vast majority if them have major regrets about what might have been.
I can only speak from the other perspective. GA for 12 years, regionals for 5 years and then a major for last 4 years. Could not have had more fun with my clothes on and no, it has not been all beer and skittles.
At times my family has paid a price, but that has been a considered decision (by all concerned) and in the end a decision has to be made whether it is better to be satisfied and happy and be around your family a little less, or be miserable and with them every night.
My experience in GA was that it could become what you made it. There are positions that satisfy a requirement to be home every night, be away every night or any point between.
There is an apprenticship to be served in any industry but in the end your qualification make you marketable and you can pursue your desires. Not every avanue is open to all but a healthy and happy living can be made.
All the best in your search
Cheers
Bendy
Why are you asking this question at all?? The only person who knows the correct answer to this question is you.
If it is advice or reassurance that you seek then listen to the people who made the decision 20 years ago to get out. The vast majority if them have major regrets about what might have been.
I can only speak from the other perspective. GA for 12 years, regionals for 5 years and then a major for last 4 years. Could not have had more fun with my clothes on and no, it has not been all beer and skittles.
At times my family has paid a price, but that has been a considered decision (by all concerned) and in the end a decision has to be made whether it is better to be satisfied and happy and be around your family a little less, or be miserable and with them every night.
My experience in GA was that it could become what you made it. There are positions that satisfy a requirement to be home every night, be away every night or any point between.
There is an apprenticship to be served in any industry but in the end your qualification make you marketable and you can pursue your desires. Not every avanue is open to all but a healthy and happy living can be made.
All the best in your search
Cheers
Bendy
Foolish to become a commercial pilot?
Hell no, not if you love it.
Try catching the same train every day to the same office, sitting down at the same desk, seeing the same people with the same miserable looks on their faces. I have been doing it for 2 months and I'm ready to hang myself already. I've got another 2 months or so before my next flying gig kicks off, and the anticipation of getting back in the air is killing me.
As for the money? Well, you're more than welcome to take my lead and try and find a rich girl to marry!
(Although drinking in all these swish bars finding these rich girls is starting to hurt my back pocket!)
TL
Hell no, not if you love it.
Try catching the same train every day to the same office, sitting down at the same desk, seeing the same people with the same miserable looks on their faces. I have been doing it for 2 months and I'm ready to hang myself already. I've got another 2 months or so before my next flying gig kicks off, and the anticipation of getting back in the air is killing me.
As for the money? Well, you're more than welcome to take my lead and try and find a rich girl to marry!
(Although drinking in all these swish bars finding these rich girls is starting to hurt my back pocket!)
TL
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And pray tell what makes you such an expert on QF salaries Huan?
I was not saying the salary will be 90K but I'm sure QF management would love to save money if they can. They are doing it all over the company already so it would be naive to believe we wont get some attention at some stage.
Another disturbing trend is I notice the company not abiding by IRC rulings with respect to some QFCL matters of restructuring. Check out some of the transcripts and it may give you an appreciation of the emloyer militancy alive and well in Qantas.
Huan, your attitude reminds of the frog experiment.
I was not saying the salary will be 90K but I'm sure QF management would love to save money if they can. They are doing it all over the company already so it would be naive to believe we wont get some attention at some stage.
Another disturbing trend is I notice the company not abiding by IRC rulings with respect to some QFCL matters of restructuring. Check out some of the transcripts and it may give you an appreciation of the emloyer militancy alive and well in Qantas.
Huan, your attitude reminds of the frog experiment.
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Bonval,
Now hold on to your horses there big fellar!
I am no expert on QF salaries or any other industrial aspect of the job. Thats why you won't see me making predictions about the future of pilots pay and conditions.
I simply maintain that there is a lot of crap that is being spun by management at the moment and that you should not blindly accept this rhetoric as justification for a cut in pay.
I agree the company seem to be playing games at the moment maybe testing the waters.
The message from QF pilots should be that they best not stick their noses in it lest they get scalded!
There is a legal system in this country that does catch up with offenders sooner or later so QF managements disregard for the industrial law of the land will serve no purpose other than to buy them a ****load of trouble.
Sars and Iraq are quickly becoming history in terms of their affect on airlines. The negative impact by many accounts has peaked. Its over! This airline is set to post a profit of $350 000 000 don't loose sight of that fact!
Pay cuts my arse!
Now hold on to your horses there big fellar!
I am no expert on QF salaries or any other industrial aspect of the job. Thats why you won't see me making predictions about the future of pilots pay and conditions.
I simply maintain that there is a lot of crap that is being spun by management at the moment and that you should not blindly accept this rhetoric as justification for a cut in pay.
I agree the company seem to be playing games at the moment maybe testing the waters.
The message from QF pilots should be that they best not stick their noses in it lest they get scalded!
There is a legal system in this country that does catch up with offenders sooner or later so QF managements disregard for the industrial law of the land will serve no purpose other than to buy them a ****load of trouble.
Sars and Iraq are quickly becoming history in terms of their affect on airlines. The negative impact by many accounts has peaked. Its over! This airline is set to post a profit of $350 000 000 don't loose sight of that fact!
Pay cuts my arse!
Last edited by huan hung lo; 24th Jul 2003 at 11:23.
Yep mate ,read it all before. I remember doing an instructors
rating in 1979 and the instructor said dont become an airline
pilot as you will whinge within a year.How right he was as far
as a lot of my colleagues are concerned,but l look back at how tough it was in the early days whenever l have a whinge these days. The problem was breaking out of GA into the airlines and
it definitely is a case of being in the right place at the time.
I thought l was going to be stuck prawn spotting in the gulf ad
infinitum and then it happened and l eventually ended up
in long haul.
Whilst we are on the subject man antipodeans enquire about
Jars etc and licence conversion, make no mistake it costs a
fortune and the dear old totally unaccountable CAA
(campaign against aviation) will put obstacles in ones path all the way.
How do pilots build the hours up these days, the old method
of doing the licences at moorrabbin and going north (usually PNG)
are over as no dougt prawn spotting
rating in 1979 and the instructor said dont become an airline
pilot as you will whinge within a year.How right he was as far
as a lot of my colleagues are concerned,but l look back at how tough it was in the early days whenever l have a whinge these days. The problem was breaking out of GA into the airlines and
it definitely is a case of being in the right place at the time.
I thought l was going to be stuck prawn spotting in the gulf ad
infinitum and then it happened and l eventually ended up
in long haul.
Whilst we are on the subject man antipodeans enquire about
Jars etc and licence conversion, make no mistake it costs a
fortune and the dear old totally unaccountable CAA
(campaign against aviation) will put obstacles in ones path all the way.
How do pilots build the hours up these days, the old method
of doing the licences at moorrabbin and going north (usually PNG)
are over as no dougt prawn spotting
I'm not too sure where you are coming from franga, as your syntax leaves some doubt as the exact point you are making, but I will say one thing (not to you, but to those who would moan about GA)....
The worst day in my "office" at 10k is still better than being either stuck down a sweaty dirty hole digging six foot deep trenches, or indeed burning the s#!t out of my forearms on a bloody hot exhaust manifold of the car owned by some overpaid schmuck of a dot com merchant who needs his car back twenty minutes before it even got there.
This I can say from eight years in the former and seven in the latter.
So if some of you cannot handle the heat of actually having to perform in your job.... get the idea? Just don't slam the door on your way out.
You are effectively rubbing the nose of each and every person who actually has an ambition to make GA their occupation for the next thirty or so years in ka-ka. Go poop on somebody else inb another profession.
Man I must be getting old to feel like that.....
The worst day in my "office" at 10k is still better than being either stuck down a sweaty dirty hole digging six foot deep trenches, or indeed burning the s#!t out of my forearms on a bloody hot exhaust manifold of the car owned by some overpaid schmuck of a dot com merchant who needs his car back twenty minutes before it even got there.
This I can say from eight years in the former and seven in the latter.
So if some of you cannot handle the heat of actually having to perform in your job.... get the idea? Just don't slam the door on your way out.
You are effectively rubbing the nose of each and every person who actually has an ambition to make GA their occupation for the next thirty or so years in ka-ka. Go poop on somebody else inb another profession.
Man I must be getting old to feel like that.....
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Gee, I'm glad I never read this forum when I started my career, listening to a lot of disgruntled/whineing pilots does nothing positive. Yeah, go become an accountant or a doctor, sounds glamourous etc but when your sixty are you gonna say you gave it your best shot at life or are you always going to wish you had flown for a living (or at least given it a go) There are some great jobs out there, my advice to anyone is don't listen to anyone but yourself. I'm not saying it's the best job in the world but you can do a hell of a lot worse.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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It's a cold,wet day here as I slowly warm up after freezing my a**e off in a vineyard for the last four hours pruning vines. I think back to the warm days and nights of my time as a pilot with a few GA operators in PNG. I would have loved to stay there but fate decreed otherwise. I made a king sized mistake, and literally crashed out of a career in aviation.
That was over twelve years ago and only earlier this year did I finally get my foot back in the door. I now get an occasional flight in Pa 31's ferrying them around the countryside. Note the word; occasional! Otherwise my full time employment is fruit picking at $24 a bin (just over 1 hour a bin) and pruning grape vines and orange trees @$13.20 an hour.
What would I rather do full time?
Was it worth getting a CPL ?
Is it worth spending my hard earned cash keeping my command m/e IFR rating current?
Of course it bl***y well is!!!!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
That was over twelve years ago and only earlier this year did I finally get my foot back in the door. I now get an occasional flight in Pa 31's ferrying them around the countryside. Note the word; occasional! Otherwise my full time employment is fruit picking at $24 a bin (just over 1 hour a bin) and pruning grape vines and orange trees @$13.20 an hour.
What would I rather do full time?
Was it worth getting a CPL ?
Is it worth spending my hard earned cash keeping my command m/e IFR rating current?
Of course it bl***y well is!!!!
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Last edited by Pinky the pilot; 25th Jul 2003 at 13:52.