Unhelpful NOTAMS
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Unhelpful NOTAMS
Has anyone noted (at least in Area 40 NOTAMS) the following NOTAMS?
PRD C1306/03
TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA ACT
WI 3NM RAD OF PSN S27 01 E151 51
SFC TO 5000FT AMSL
FROM 07 160235 TO 07 230200
PRD C1324/03 REVIEW C1282/03
A TEMPORARY DANGER AREA IS ACTIVE FOR HIGH SPEED MILITARY JET
AIRCRAFT TO OPERATE ON RANDOM TRACKS REMAINING CLEAR OF CTAF AND CTA.
CHAFF AND FLARES MAY BE USED. WITHIN THE DANGER AREA TRAFFIC WILL NOT
BE PASSED TO OR ABOUT THESE MILITARY AIRCRAFT.
LATERAL LIMITS: S24 00.0 E146 30.0, S24 00.0 E149 00.0,
S27 00.0 E149 00.0, S27 00.0 E146 30.0, S24 00.0 E146 30.0
VERTICAL LIMITS:SFC - LOWER LIMIT OF CTA
FROM 07 172310 TO 07 241200
0307172310 TO 0307180700 0307202300 TO 0307211200 0307212300 TO
0307221200 0307222300 TO 0307231200 0307232300 TO 0307241200
PRD C1325/03
TEMPO DANGER AREA ACT
FOR HIGH SPEED MILITARY JET AIRCRAFT TO OPERATE ON RANDOM TRACKS
REMAINING CLEAR OF CTAF AND CTA. CHAFF AND FLARES MAY BE USED. WITHIN
THE DANGER AREA TRAFFIC WILL NOT BE PASSED TO OR ABOUT THESE MILITARY
AIRCRAFT.
LATERAL LIMITS: S28 30 E150 30, S30 00 E150 30, S30 00 E151 00, S30
30 E151 00, S30 30 E152 30, S29 21 E153 13, S29 15 E153 03, S29 06
E153 06, S28 30 E152 30, S28 30 E150 30
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - LOWER LIMIT OF CTA
FROM 07 202300 TO 07 241200
0307202300 TO 0307211200 0307212300 TO 0307221200 0307222300 TO
0307231200 0307232300 TO 0307241200
Maybe I'm just a lazy sod who doesn't want to sit and plot out lat/longs on WACs just to see whether a NOTAM is relevant to my flight plan, but do you think it would be too much for the military/AirServices boys and girls to at least label the NOTAMs with some names of areas affected or even make available on the net/AVFAX a *gasp* graphic depiction of the area involved (as they do with some of the more helpful AIP SUPPs)?
Frankly it all seems a little too unhelpful if it is meant to promote the great (affordable) god of safety......
Cheers
NOtimTAMs (or Chocolate Montes, either....)
PRD C1306/03
TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA ACT
WI 3NM RAD OF PSN S27 01 E151 51
SFC TO 5000FT AMSL
FROM 07 160235 TO 07 230200
PRD C1324/03 REVIEW C1282/03
A TEMPORARY DANGER AREA IS ACTIVE FOR HIGH SPEED MILITARY JET
AIRCRAFT TO OPERATE ON RANDOM TRACKS REMAINING CLEAR OF CTAF AND CTA.
CHAFF AND FLARES MAY BE USED. WITHIN THE DANGER AREA TRAFFIC WILL NOT
BE PASSED TO OR ABOUT THESE MILITARY AIRCRAFT.
LATERAL LIMITS: S24 00.0 E146 30.0, S24 00.0 E149 00.0,
S27 00.0 E149 00.0, S27 00.0 E146 30.0, S24 00.0 E146 30.0
VERTICAL LIMITS:SFC - LOWER LIMIT OF CTA
FROM 07 172310 TO 07 241200
0307172310 TO 0307180700 0307202300 TO 0307211200 0307212300 TO
0307221200 0307222300 TO 0307231200 0307232300 TO 0307241200
PRD C1325/03
TEMPO DANGER AREA ACT
FOR HIGH SPEED MILITARY JET AIRCRAFT TO OPERATE ON RANDOM TRACKS
REMAINING CLEAR OF CTAF AND CTA. CHAFF AND FLARES MAY BE USED. WITHIN
THE DANGER AREA TRAFFIC WILL NOT BE PASSED TO OR ABOUT THESE MILITARY
AIRCRAFT.
LATERAL LIMITS: S28 30 E150 30, S30 00 E150 30, S30 00 E151 00, S30
30 E151 00, S30 30 E152 30, S29 21 E153 13, S29 15 E153 03, S29 06
E153 06, S28 30 E152 30, S28 30 E150 30
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - LOWER LIMIT OF CTA
FROM 07 202300 TO 07 241200
0307202300 TO 0307211200 0307212300 TO 0307221200 0307222300 TO
0307231200 0307232300 TO 0307241200
Maybe I'm just a lazy sod who doesn't want to sit and plot out lat/longs on WACs just to see whether a NOTAM is relevant to my flight plan, but do you think it would be too much for the military/AirServices boys and girls to at least label the NOTAMs with some names of areas affected or even make available on the net/AVFAX a *gasp* graphic depiction of the area involved (as they do with some of the more helpful AIP SUPPs)?
Frankly it all seems a little too unhelpful if it is meant to promote the great (affordable) god of safety......
Cheers
NOtimTAMs (or Chocolate Montes, either....)
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Well then, I suggest if you don't want to get blasted out of the sky you get off your a** and plot the co-ordinates on a map. You're right; you're just a lazy sod............
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Location: Brisbane
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Better be careful it looks like someone in Airservices read's PPRUNE, the area looks like about half of Queensland, seems strange with all the restricted areas for Military flying they need more.
TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA ACT
WI 3NM RAD OF PSN S27 01 E151 51 (COOYAR)
SFC TO 5000FT AMSL
FROM 07 202245 TO 07 230200
C1337/03 REVIEW C1325/03
TEMPO DANGER AREA SE QUEENSLAND N NEW SOUTH WALES ACT
FOR HIGH SPEED MILITARY JET AIRCRAFT TO OPERATE ON RANDOM TRACKS
REMAINING CLEAR OF CTAF AND CTA. CHAFF AND FLARES MAY BE USED. WITHIN
THE DANGER AREA TRAFFIC WILL NOT BE PASSED TO OR ABOUT THESE MILITARY
AIRCRAFT.
LATERAL LIMITS: S28 30 E150 30, S30 00 E150 30, S30 00 E151 00, S30
30 E151 00, S30 30 E152 30, S29 21 E153 13, S29 15 E153 03, S29 06
E153 06, S28 30 E152 30, S28 30 E150 30
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - LOWER LIMIT OF CTA
FROM 07 202300 TO 07 241200
0307202300 TO 0307211200 0307212300 TO 0307221200 0307222300 TO
0307231200 0307232300 TO 0307241200
C1336/03 REVIEW C1324/03
TEMPO DANGER AREA CENTRAL WESTERN QUEENSLAND ACT
A TEMPORARY DANGER AREA IS ACTIVE FOR HIGH SPEED MILITARY JET
AIRCRAFT TO OPERATE ON RANDOM TRACKS REMAINING CLEAR OF CTAF AND CTA.
CHAFF AND FLARES MAY BE USED. WITHIN THE DANGER AREA TRAFFIC WILL NOT
BE PASSED TO OR ABOUT THESE MILITARY AIRCRAFT.
LATERAL LIMITS: S24 00.0 E146 30.0, S24 00.0 E149 00.0,
TEMPO RESTRICTED AREA ACT
WI 3NM RAD OF PSN S27 01 E151 51 (COOYAR)
SFC TO 5000FT AMSL
FROM 07 202245 TO 07 230200
C1337/03 REVIEW C1325/03
TEMPO DANGER AREA SE QUEENSLAND N NEW SOUTH WALES ACT
FOR HIGH SPEED MILITARY JET AIRCRAFT TO OPERATE ON RANDOM TRACKS
REMAINING CLEAR OF CTAF AND CTA. CHAFF AND FLARES MAY BE USED. WITHIN
THE DANGER AREA TRAFFIC WILL NOT BE PASSED TO OR ABOUT THESE MILITARY
AIRCRAFT.
LATERAL LIMITS: S28 30 E150 30, S30 00 E150 30, S30 00 E151 00, S30
30 E151 00, S30 30 E152 30, S29 21 E153 13, S29 15 E153 03, S29 06
E153 06, S28 30 E152 30, S28 30 E150 30
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - LOWER LIMIT OF CTA
FROM 07 202300 TO 07 241200
0307202300 TO 0307211200 0307212300 TO 0307221200 0307222300 TO
0307231200 0307232300 TO 0307241200
C1336/03 REVIEW C1324/03
TEMPO DANGER AREA CENTRAL WESTERN QUEENSLAND ACT
A TEMPORARY DANGER AREA IS ACTIVE FOR HIGH SPEED MILITARY JET
AIRCRAFT TO OPERATE ON RANDOM TRACKS REMAINING CLEAR OF CTAF AND CTA.
CHAFF AND FLARES MAY BE USED. WITHIN THE DANGER AREA TRAFFIC WILL NOT
BE PASSED TO OR ABOUT THESE MILITARY AIRCRAFT.
LATERAL LIMITS: S24 00.0 E146 30.0, S24 00.0 E149 00.0,
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Actually, I'm not a lazy sod - I just didn't want anyone to think I was too conscientious (but I *do* update my DAPS/CARs/AIP SUPs etc. on time and without a company lackey to do it for me!)
The "temporary danger areas" listed above are not part of any of the "yellow" AIP SUPs ( i.e. not part of Excercises Grumpy Strike, Crocodile 03, Cobra Strike, Kakadu VI or Black Dagger - don't you just love them military flyboys and the dinky names? Roger that, Taipan One.....
)
In fact, one of the areas takes in a large part of northeastern NSW (including Grafton, Pt Lookout, Inverell, Glen Innes and most low level IFR tracks out of SE Qld to southern states) and the other large area covers many tracks out from SE Qld to western Qld and vice versa.
Given that the danger areas encompass the activities of military ACFT on random tracks and altitudes from SFC to base of CTA and given that many RPT/Charter on short sectors in this area fly below CTA (not to mention PVT flyers), why aren't folks as up in arms at the potential for mid airs here as they seem to be for the NAS proposals?
Given that the military or CASA (or someone) cares enough to publish nice graphics-based outlines of PRDs for the AIP SUPs for the above-named military excercises, why doesn't military or CASA (or someone) give a damn about doing the same for the above very extensive areas?
For whose benefit are these danger areas published anyway? If we believe we could have a collision do we not fly there - even if the area takes in a quarter of a state? If we are carrying fare-paying pax (or even just someone we love
), are we or our companies culpable for flying through such a danger area if the unthinkable happens? Does anyone think see and avoid will help a military jet avoid a collision?
Frankly, I don't see a practical safety risk myself, but I can't stand to see the hypocrisy of those who whinge and bitch about having non-announced traffic flying through "their" sacrosanct levels, when the reality is that it happens and has been happening almost every day, in very fast aircraft on routes serviced by charter and RPT.....
In addition, if it is seen to be worthwhile to detail (in a more useful fashion - by diagram) such airspace in AIP SUPs, why doesn't that apply to the above danger areas??
Happy flying.
NOtimTAMs
The "temporary danger areas" listed above are not part of any of the "yellow" AIP SUPs ( i.e. not part of Excercises Grumpy Strike, Crocodile 03, Cobra Strike, Kakadu VI or Black Dagger - don't you just love them military flyboys and the dinky names? Roger that, Taipan One.....
)In fact, one of the areas takes in a large part of northeastern NSW (including Grafton, Pt Lookout, Inverell, Glen Innes and most low level IFR tracks out of SE Qld to southern states) and the other large area covers many tracks out from SE Qld to western Qld and vice versa.
Given that the danger areas encompass the activities of military ACFT on random tracks and altitudes from SFC to base of CTA and given that many RPT/Charter on short sectors in this area fly below CTA (not to mention PVT flyers), why aren't folks as up in arms at the potential for mid airs here as they seem to be for the NAS proposals?
Given that the military or CASA (or someone) cares enough to publish nice graphics-based outlines of PRDs for the AIP SUPs for the above-named military excercises, why doesn't military or CASA (or someone) give a damn about doing the same for the above very extensive areas?
For whose benefit are these danger areas published anyway? If we believe we could have a collision do we not fly there - even if the area takes in a quarter of a state? If we are carrying fare-paying pax (or even just someone we love
), are we or our companies culpable for flying through such a danger area if the unthinkable happens? Does anyone think see and avoid will help a military jet avoid a collision?Frankly, I don't see a practical safety risk myself, but I can't stand to see the hypocrisy of those who whinge and bitch about having non-announced traffic flying through "their" sacrosanct levels, when the reality is that it happens and has been happening almost every day, in very fast aircraft on routes serviced by charter and RPT.....
In addition, if it is seen to be worthwhile to detail (in a more useful fashion - by diagram) such airspace in AIP SUPs, why doesn't that apply to the above danger areas??
Happy flying.
NOtimTAMs
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Timtam has a point.
Whoever drafted the Notam has to be precise -- another case of precision that covers someone's @rse -- legalese may be precise, but it is rarely effective communication.
Put this into the context of a regional pilot who has signed on 45 min ahead of an 11duty hour tour with six or eight sectors to plan, and you can see that it is no SERVICE to him/her and his/her dozens of colleagues who have to either (1) plot this accurately on a spare (huh) chart and possibly run late or (2) take a quick look and get on with the two hundred and fifty other things legally required to be inpected/signed off/actioned before start up.
Why not append with something like...
"1:10,000 diagram available as AVFAX product number 81234"
And get someone to input the diagram the military boys drew into the AVFAX system! You can't tell me that it doesnt exist as a map or diagram SOMEWHERE!?!?
Whoever drafted the Notam has to be precise -- another case of precision that covers someone's @rse -- legalese may be precise, but it is rarely effective communication.
Put this into the context of a regional pilot who has signed on 45 min ahead of an 11duty hour tour with six or eight sectors to plan, and you can see that it is no SERVICE to him/her and his/her dozens of colleagues who have to either (1) plot this accurately on a spare (huh) chart and possibly run late or (2) take a quick look and get on with the two hundred and fifty other things legally required to be inpected/signed off/actioned before start up.
Why not append with something like...
"1:10,000 diagram available as AVFAX product number 81234"
And get someone to input the diagram the military boys drew into the AVFAX system! You can't tell me that it doesnt exist as a map or diagram SOMEWHERE!?!?
Captain Sand Dune,
young NOtimTAMS might be a lazy sod, but for the life of me I can't understand why you'd want to confirm irrefutably that you are an obnoxious, ill-tempered, and thoroughly arrogant old pric
Has someone shot at you recently?
A bit touchy old boy. Get back in your cage.
I actually agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment about bloody useless information from NOTAM. Not just the death by numbers routine, but also the death by a thousand completely useless and trivial pieces of excrement.
Being an old beggar, I'm sure you'll recall the definition of a NOTAM, "Operational information, the timely notification of which is essential to flight operations."
Nowadays, it reads something like; "Information about anything that may be of interest to anyone involved even remotely with the aviation industry." Only in a whole lot more words.
It actually should read, "Complete legally considered information, the timely notification of which may possibly be required to prevent a law suit being brought against any of the government bodies involved in the provision of services to the aviation industry."
Do you have a problem with the fact that the NOTAM system has been trivialised into being nothing more than a waste of paper?
SO DO I.
Can we do anything about it? Probably not. No point worrying about it then, eh?
Relax again.
young NOtimTAMS might be a lazy sod, but for the life of me I can't understand why you'd want to confirm irrefutably that you are an obnoxious, ill-tempered, and thoroughly arrogant old pric
Has someone shot at you recently?
A bit touchy old boy. Get back in your cage.
I actually agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment about bloody useless information from NOTAM. Not just the death by numbers routine, but also the death by a thousand completely useless and trivial pieces of excrement.
Being an old beggar, I'm sure you'll recall the definition of a NOTAM, "Operational information, the timely notification of which is essential to flight operations."
Nowadays, it reads something like; "Information about anything that may be of interest to anyone involved even remotely with the aviation industry." Only in a whole lot more words.
It actually should read, "Complete legally considered information, the timely notification of which may possibly be required to prevent a law suit being brought against any of the government bodies involved in the provision of services to the aviation industry."
Do you have a problem with the fact that the NOTAM system has been trivialised into being nothing more than a waste of paper?
SO DO I.
Can we do anything about it? Probably not. No point worrying about it then, eh?
Relax again.
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They're at it again! This one from Area 40 NOTAMs.
PRD C1494/03
TEMPO DANGER AREA ACT
FOR HIGH SPEED MIL JET ACFT TO OPR ON RANDOM TRACKS REMAINING CLEAR
OF CTAF AND CTA. CHAFF AND FLARES MAY BE USED WI THE DANGER AREA.
TRAFFIC WILL NOT BE PASSED TO OR ABOUT THESE MIL ACFT.
LATERAL LIMITS: S28 00 E149 30,
S30 00 E149 30,
S30 00 E150 00,
S30 30 E150 00,
S30 30 E152 30,
S29 21 E153 13,
S29 15 E153 03,
S29 06 E153 06,
S28 00 E152 00,
S28 00 E149 30.
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - LOWER OF CTA
FROM 08 102300 TO 08 151200
0308102300 TO 0308111200 0308112300 TO 0308121200 0308122300 TO
0308131200 0308132300 TO 0308141200 0308142300 TO 0308151200
The observant ones will see it as a reissue of one of the original NOTAMs of the post, but not everyone is obsessive compulsive about remembering these things.
"Hold on, before I fly today, lets get out the WACs and plot the 8 points and see if it applies to my flight plan.....' - for f*cks sake, if it's seriously there as safety advice, make it bl00dy accessible.
To me it means the RAAF don't actually care if the information is useable or not and that they perhaps assess collision risk as v. v. low anyway (maybe they are NAS converts.......) and are just issuing it because they have to.........
Either way, it's pretty pointless.
Safe Flying
NOtimTAMs
PRD C1494/03
TEMPO DANGER AREA ACT
FOR HIGH SPEED MIL JET ACFT TO OPR ON RANDOM TRACKS REMAINING CLEAR
OF CTAF AND CTA. CHAFF AND FLARES MAY BE USED WI THE DANGER AREA.
TRAFFIC WILL NOT BE PASSED TO OR ABOUT THESE MIL ACFT.
LATERAL LIMITS: S28 00 E149 30,
S30 00 E149 30,
S30 00 E150 00,
S30 30 E150 00,
S30 30 E152 30,
S29 21 E153 13,
S29 15 E153 03,
S29 06 E153 06,
S28 00 E152 00,
S28 00 E149 30.
VERTICAL LIMITS: SFC - LOWER OF CTA
FROM 08 102300 TO 08 151200
0308102300 TO 0308111200 0308112300 TO 0308121200 0308122300 TO
0308131200 0308132300 TO 0308141200 0308142300 TO 0308151200
The observant ones will see it as a reissue of one of the original NOTAMs of the post, but not everyone is obsessive compulsive about remembering these things.
"Hold on, before I fly today, lets get out the WACs and plot the 8 points and see if it applies to my flight plan.....' - for f*cks sake, if it's seriously there as safety advice, make it bl00dy accessible.
To me it means the RAAF don't actually care if the information is useable or not and that they perhaps assess collision risk as v. v. low anyway (maybe they are NAS converts.......) and are just issuing it because they have to.........
Either way, it's pretty pointless.
Safe Flying
NOtimTAMs
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“Obnoxious, ill-tempered, and thoroughly arrogant old pric”, “has someone shot at you recently?”.
….and you call ME touchy!!
Wow, Manwell you’d best get that knot out of your g-string pretty quick before it does some permanent damage.
But enough of pleasantries….I have no problems taking a few minutes (and that’s all it takes) to plot a few lines on a map in the interests of flight safety. After all, isn’t that part of the job description?
….and you call ME touchy!!
Wow, Manwell you’d best get that knot out of your g-string pretty quick before it does some permanent damage.
But enough of pleasantries….I have no problems taking a few minutes (and that’s all it takes) to plot a few lines on a map in the interests of flight safety. After all, isn’t that part of the job description?
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.... and I'd rather spend 15 seconds looking at a diagram such as those included in the AIP SUPPs than dig around, find the right WAC, plot it and find that it does't apply to me anyway. Perhaps, Cap'n Sandy, you'd like all those unnecessary diagrams in the AIP SUPPs taken away and replaced by those useful descriptions such as "....and thence along the minor arc of 125 DME PLACENAME to S nn nn E nnn nn to ...." Could spend lots more enjoyable minutes there. Then again, if you're always on the ERC-H, you don't have to worry......
Even them technologically challenged and backward Yanks are able to get out graphical representations of their daily-changing TFR's - not so much to ask of the RAAF and good ol' ASA.......
Fly safely
NOtimTAMs
Even them technologically challenged and backward Yanks are able to get out graphical representations of their daily-changing TFR's - not so much to ask of the RAAF and good ol' ASA.......
Fly safely
NOtimTAMs
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notams
check out this site in the US, they have airspace notams and links to maps so no plotting is required:
http://www2.faa.gov/ats/afss/leesburg/
It is the web site of Leesbursg flight service, remember when we had flight service?
They have links to several sites where pictorial views of restricted areas can be viewed on WAC, GNC or sectionals.
A pity we cannot have the same here.
http://www2.faa.gov/ats/afss/leesburg/
It is the web site of Leesbursg flight service, remember when we had flight service?
They have links to several sites where pictorial views of restricted areas can be viewed on WAC, GNC or sectionals.
A pity we cannot have the same here.
's sake run like hell away from JAR.
