Twin IFR
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Twin IFR
Hi all,
I was wondering if I could ask your opinions on the following:
I'm contemplating undertaking my twin IFR Rating at the end of this year when I hopefully get holidays. Is it, in your opinion too early to be doing it? I have currently close to 600hrs TT, of which about half is on complex singles (C210 and the like). I've heard some people say there's no point in doing it until at least 1000hrs TT. What are your thoughts?
Also, does it matter what equipment I do this on? I'm intending to go with Ad Astral, meaning that I'd be doing it on a Duchess, but of course no one in WA is using the Duchess, but rather C310 or Baron. Is there anything advantageous to be had by doing it on equipment that companies are actually using?
All help gratefully received.
520.
I was wondering if I could ask your opinions on the following:
I'm contemplating undertaking my twin IFR Rating at the end of this year when I hopefully get holidays. Is it, in your opinion too early to be doing it? I have currently close to 600hrs TT, of which about half is on complex singles (C210 and the like). I've heard some people say there's no point in doing it until at least 1000hrs TT. What are your thoughts?
Also, does it matter what equipment I do this on? I'm intending to go with Ad Astral, meaning that I'd be doing it on a Duchess, but of course no one in WA is using the Duchess, but rather C310 or Baron. Is there anything advantageous to be had by doing it on equipment that companies are actually using?
All help gratefully received.
520.
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G'day 520, 600 hours is plenty to do the IFR rating, whether someone will give you an IFR job with those hours is another question. You may have to keep doing the single VFR job but you'll be "johnny on the spot" if an IFR job appears, it'll make you a better pilot too. I had about 350 hours when I did my rating many years ago and didn't have too many problems.
If did the rating in a duchess[one of the cheapest twins to do it in] and then did a baron and 310 endorsment to make myself employable.
As an aside I found the IFR rating the most enjoyable training I'd ever done.
If did the rating in a duchess[one of the cheapest twins to do it in] and then did a baron and 310 endorsment to make myself employable.
As an aside I found the IFR rating the most enjoyable training I'd ever done.
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Dude,
go for the instrument rating asap, jobs in the future will have minimum numbers of renewals required. to do an instrument rating, a duchess is not always the cheapest option, companies like johnson aviation at port macquarie do theirs in a baron and are the best price and value, ATO in house, alot of fun.
any jackass with a flying school can do an instrument rating, what i feel is a good measure of if this is the correct school is ask 1. do you instruct the theory course, if not go else where, 2. how long since you've had a dedicated instrument rating student, anything more than a few weeks also go else where.
good luck
go for the instrument rating asap, jobs in the future will have minimum numbers of renewals required. to do an instrument rating, a duchess is not always the cheapest option, companies like johnson aviation at port macquarie do theirs in a baron and are the best price and value, ATO in house, alot of fun.
any jackass with a flying school can do an instrument rating, what i feel is a good measure of if this is the correct school is ask 1. do you instruct the theory course, if not go else where, 2. how long since you've had a dedicated instrument rating student, anything more than a few weeks also go else where.
good luck
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I had about 250-300hrs when I did my rating.
I was flying ATO's in a Partenavia and a Navajo at 900 hrs.
So I say 'Go For It'.
Did it in an Aztec. Was told that the airlines prefer training done in faster/more technical aircraft, don't think it really makestoo much of a difference as long as it has cowl flaps and retracable gear.
My only recommendation for selection of training establishment, is to make sure the person training you has experience on actual ATO's, not just instructing. Too many people are getting taught how to fly Multi-IFR by instructors who have only a few more hours than themselves, these instructors have never done a real approach single pilot down to minima's (i.e. Some of the Massey instructors with only 60hrs multi, 30 of that PIC. Not trying to start an argument, some of their instructors, R.R. are very good). My instructor was doing a regular run in some of the most difficult flying conditions in the country, he taught me a lot more than any non-experienced instructor would ever be able to do. If it's possible, see if you can go along for a ride with your instructor, you will learn a lot this way as well.
Hope that all helps ya.
D_W_C
I was flying ATO's in a Partenavia and a Navajo at 900 hrs.
So I say 'Go For It'.
Did it in an Aztec. Was told that the airlines prefer training done in faster/more technical aircraft, don't think it really makestoo much of a difference as long as it has cowl flaps and retracable gear.
My only recommendation for selection of training establishment, is to make sure the person training you has experience on actual ATO's, not just instructing. Too many people are getting taught how to fly Multi-IFR by instructors who have only a few more hours than themselves, these instructors have never done a real approach single pilot down to minima's (i.e. Some of the Massey instructors with only 60hrs multi, 30 of that PIC. Not trying to start an argument, some of their instructors, R.R. are very good). My instructor was doing a regular run in some of the most difficult flying conditions in the country, he taught me a lot more than any non-experienced instructor would ever be able to do. If it's possible, see if you can go along for a ride with your instructor, you will learn a lot this way as well.
Hope that all helps ya.
D_W_C
Agree with dances_with_clouds. Had an aeroclub MEIR intructor "try" get up to speed on our freight run a few months back. He lasted about a month or 2. In that time, they had to operate 2 pilot as he wasn't up to speed. Decided to quit and go back to his last job instructing people like yourself. Instructors can always use the out " I think the weather is too bad for your experience today" When it is their inexperience they are talking about.
Definately start your rating, but think long and hard about who you do it with. Ask yourself "What opportunites are there for you after your rating? Is there a possibilty of a job with the training org afterwards? (ATO's) How experienced are the instructors?"
Most of all enjoy your flying
Definately start your rating, but think long and hard about who you do it with. Ask yourself "What opportunites are there for you after your rating? Is there a possibilty of a job with the training org afterwards? (ATO's) How experienced are the instructors?"
Most of all enjoy your flying
Seasonally Adjusted
600hrs is an ideal time to start the MECIR, especially if you have some big single time.
I would have a good look around before handing over my hard earned dollars. As well as checking out the level of experience your instructor has I would also be enquiring about what type of sim they use. A large amount of time will be spent in the sim getting your procedures right before jumping into the aircraft.
On the subject of aircraft, I don't believe it matters what type you use as long as it has two engines. If you choose the Duchess/Senneca/Seminole option you will truly appreciate the Baron/C310 when you step up.
I would recommend Anne and Brad at the Royal. Great facilities, very experienced instructors, excellent sim (based on the C310) and you wont feel out of your depth bashing around in the 'smelly-hole' or the Partnavia.
I would have a good look around before handing over my hard earned dollars. As well as checking out the level of experience your instructor has I would also be enquiring about what type of sim they use. A large amount of time will be spent in the sim getting your procedures right before jumping into the aircraft.
On the subject of aircraft, I don't believe it matters what type you use as long as it has two engines. If you choose the Duchess/Senneca/Seminole option you will truly appreciate the Baron/C310 when you step up.
I would recommend Anne and Brad at the Royal. Great facilities, very experienced instructors, excellent sim (based on the C310) and you wont feel out of your depth bashing around in the 'smelly-hole' or the Partnavia.
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Hey, Fly Real Fast
It was only 3wks training, and as well as him deciding to give it up, the boss man told him to go home as he was not willing to continue on if the original pilot did not return. He would rather go back to his cosy lil aeroclub job and instruct mutli-IFR (From what I have heard, he was, at the time, no where near ready to start instructing, let alone go flying a twin IFR, single pilot in bad Wx).
Maybe they will put you on the run next year.
C Ya in GS next wk Big Boy...
It was only 3wks training, and as well as him deciding to give it up, the boss man told him to go home as he was not willing to continue on if the original pilot did not return. He would rather go back to his cosy lil aeroclub job and instruct mutli-IFR (From what I have heard, he was, at the time, no where near ready to start instructing, let alone go flying a twin IFR, single pilot in bad Wx).
Maybe they will put you on the run next year.
C Ya in GS next wk Big Boy...
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Hello again,
Many thanks to all of you who offered your insight. It is much appreciated and has put my mind at ease a little about the aspects mentioned in my original post.
By the looks of a couple of posts above, it would appear that some of you are flying mail runs. If this happens to be on C210 with Chartair, please elaborate! I'm sorta working towards their minimum requirements as my next career move, not to mention PREYING that they will consider me when they next need someone.
Thanks again.
520.
Many thanks to all of you who offered your insight. It is much appreciated and has put my mind at ease a little about the aspects mentioned in my original post.
By the looks of a couple of posts above, it would appear that some of you are flying mail runs. If this happens to be on C210 with Chartair, please elaborate! I'm sorta working towards their minimum requirements as my next career move, not to mention PREYING that they will consider me when they next need someone.
Thanks again.
520.
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Hi OpsNormal,
In short, all I want to know is the following:
1) How much work a 'newbie' can expect (so I can determine whether I'd need work in other fields to get by, and how much)
2) What the pay basis is, and if casual, what the hourly rate is (ballpark figure will suffice)
3) Now that I think of it, whether they would look see a twin IFR rating as an advantage in the case of someone in my shoes or whether it wouldn't really matter.
4) What living in Alice is like. High living cost? I suppose it would be. Rent expensive?
All help gratefully received, of course.
Aside from the above, would I be right in assuming you now work for them, and no longer NAC?
Thank you for your time.
520.
In short, all I want to know is the following:
1) How much work a 'newbie' can expect (so I can determine whether I'd need work in other fields to get by, and how much)
2) What the pay basis is, and if casual, what the hourly rate is (ballpark figure will suffice)
3) Now that I think of it, whether they would look see a twin IFR rating as an advantage in the case of someone in my shoes or whether it wouldn't really matter.
4) What living in Alice is like. High living cost? I suppose it would be. Rent expensive?
All help gratefully received, of course.
Aside from the above, would I be right in assuming you now work for them, and no longer NAC?
Thank you for your time.
520.
Last question - something like that.
Ask whatever you like, but I wont be discussing it here except to say that Chartair is a signatory of the GA award and it's conditions per se.
Ask whatever you like, but I wont be discussing it here except to say that Chartair is a signatory of the GA award and it's conditions per se.
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Continental instead of praying, go and pester the hell out of them until they give you a job! Btw you don't need to have an endorsement on the space shuttle to get a job up here in the NT so aim high and see what happens.....
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Sounds like good advice, there.
You've motivated me to do just that now. Thanks!
I'm aware it's advantageous, but is it necessary to be (living) in town to get hired, or would visiting and an introduction in person be adequate?
520
You've motivated me to do just that now. Thanks!
I'm aware it's advantageous, but is it necessary to be (living) in town to get hired, or would visiting and an introduction in person be adequate?
520
Oh well 520, you obviously didn't want the confidential info that was on offer (it was mentioned how you could get it), so I guess you lose.
OK, answers to some of your questions.....
1). That depends on the candidate, but can expect to be rather busy at worst.
2). As mentioned, The GA Pilot's award is what it all comes back to. I was casual at first, flew max hours for a couple of months and made a motza.
3). That isn't a question for me to answer as I'm not the CP, but if you don't have it then you cannot look forward to using it, pure and simple.
4). Cost of living. Some things are more expensive, some things aren't. Rent anywhere from $130/week for a small studio to $400/week for a house. Fuel, around a buck at the moment. Like most towns in the middle of everywhere, everything has to be frieghted in and bears the associated cost.
As mentioned, there is more but you obviously don't want it that much.
When you finally get to meet the CP, are you going to say.... "Give us a job would ya?", or would you ask for it?
Manners count as well as not jumping down people's throats because they used ONE word that annoyed you. My reference to
as a "kid" in previous conversation wasn't with any malice, because as far as you'd know I could be/am old enough to be his/your father. BTW, according to a couple of mutual friends we have actually met, but I'll leave it up to you to work it out as to where and when.
This forum isn't as anonymous as perhaps you'd like. If you require anything else, don't hesitate to email and I'll answer what I can.
Regards,
OpsN.
edited to correct formatting.
OK, answers to some of your questions.....
1). That depends on the candidate, but can expect to be rather busy at worst.
2). As mentioned, The GA Pilot's award is what it all comes back to. I was casual at first, flew max hours for a couple of months and made a motza.
3). That isn't a question for me to answer as I'm not the CP, but if you don't have it then you cannot look forward to using it, pure and simple.
4). Cost of living. Some things are more expensive, some things aren't. Rent anywhere from $130/week for a small studio to $400/week for a house. Fuel, around a buck at the moment. Like most towns in the middle of everywhere, everything has to be frieghted in and bears the associated cost.
As mentioned, there is more but you obviously don't want it that much.
....In short, all I want to know is the following:....
Manners count as well as not jumping down people's throats because they used ONE word that annoyed you. My reference to
as a "kid" in previous conversation wasn't with any malice, because as far as you'd know I could be/am old enough to be his/your father. BTW, according to a couple of mutual friends we have actually met, but I'll leave it up to you to work it out as to where and when. This forum isn't as anonymous as perhaps you'd like. If you require anything else, don't hesitate to email and I'll answer what I can.
Regards,
OpsN.
edited to correct formatting.
Last edited by OpsNormal; 24th Jun 2003 at 09:06.
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Hi Ops Normal,
You can expect an email from me in due course. Please do not interprete the delay as a sign of disinterest, as that could not be further from the truth.
I don't recall being inpolite towards you unless our last exchange is what you consider rudeness. That, of course, is open to interpretation.
The only point I was trying to outline in our last was that for someone who has indeed seen some hardship in their time, which you have from my understanding, what you were saying was far from encouraging or helpful to those you were referring to. Again, it is up to the individual to interprete. Whilst you may not have intended in the context mentioned, it was sure taken that way, not only by me, but my former employer also. Does this have to be anyone's fault??
Yes, I have been aware and have just driven home the fact in the paragraph above that we both know exactly who each other are, if that makes any sense. This is what contributed to any angst in my previous posts in that topic, the fact that you never mentioned when we met that I had "talked myself out of a job". Quite the contrary, in fact.
Surely you, of all people can understand that the learning curve one goes through initially after entering this industry is not only one to do with operation of equipment, but also the conduct of oneself towards potential future employers. You obviously thought I knew nothing, and whilst I don't/didn't know a lot, I along with countless others am/was learning, and have so far learnt enough to be hired by two companies, one of them twice over.
To your credit, you at least dissed my resume to my face, but whilst it gets me somewhere, I don't care how 'wanky' it may appear. With the amount of competition around, I figured the only way to get anywhere was to talk oneself up. And hey presto, it has worked. Whilst I could have gone further than what I have, I'm grateful that I've gotten anywhere at all.
So, excuse me for trying. By your post above, I'm justabout drowned in fear that as soon as my piece of paper lands on a desk there, it will be slagged off. Nevertheless, it won't stop me from trying, cause yes, I DO want it that much.
I will take up your offer if I may and endeavour to email you as soon as I can.
520.
You can expect an email from me in due course. Please do not interprete the delay as a sign of disinterest, as that could not be further from the truth.
I don't recall being inpolite towards you unless our last exchange is what you consider rudeness. That, of course, is open to interpretation.
The only point I was trying to outline in our last was that for someone who has indeed seen some hardship in their time, which you have from my understanding, what you were saying was far from encouraging or helpful to those you were referring to. Again, it is up to the individual to interprete. Whilst you may not have intended in the context mentioned, it was sure taken that way, not only by me, but my former employer also. Does this have to be anyone's fault??
Yes, I have been aware and have just driven home the fact in the paragraph above that we both know exactly who each other are, if that makes any sense. This is what contributed to any angst in my previous posts in that topic, the fact that you never mentioned when we met that I had "talked myself out of a job". Quite the contrary, in fact.
Surely you, of all people can understand that the learning curve one goes through initially after entering this industry is not only one to do with operation of equipment, but also the conduct of oneself towards potential future employers. You obviously thought I knew nothing, and whilst I don't/didn't know a lot, I along with countless others am/was learning, and have so far learnt enough to be hired by two companies, one of them twice over.
To your credit, you at least dissed my resume to my face, but whilst it gets me somewhere, I don't care how 'wanky' it may appear. With the amount of competition around, I figured the only way to get anywhere was to talk oneself up. And hey presto, it has worked. Whilst I could have gone further than what I have, I'm grateful that I've gotten anywhere at all.
So, excuse me for trying. By your post above, I'm justabout drowned in fear that as soon as my piece of paper lands on a desk there, it will be slagged off. Nevertheless, it won't stop me from trying, cause yes, I DO want it that much.
I will take up your offer if I may and endeavour to email you as soon as I can.
520.
IWFAJ, yeah mate I did, but have been a bit tied-up at work over the last week or so and keep forgetting to get back to you, my sincerest apologies. I'll remedy that this this arvo!
520, you're getting warmer, but my first name starts with "D", not "R". I certainly had no idea at the time that your resume' hadn't been well recieved, you made me aware of this on the drive to your accom. If you email me some way of getting hold of you, I might be able to perhaps suggest the sort of approach here might best bear fruit for you.
Regards,
OpsN.
520, you're getting warmer, but my first name starts with "D", not "R". I certainly had no idea at the time that your resume' hadn't been well recieved, you made me aware of this on the drive to your accom. If you email me some way of getting hold of you, I might be able to perhaps suggest the sort of approach here might best bear fruit for you.
Regards,
OpsN.
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Conti-520, a few of my humble opinions......
Price and job opportunities and getting a 'useful' endorsement on a 'working' aeroplane are just window dressing.
Spend your money on an IFR school that has trained hundreds or thousands of guys in your position. There are not many around. You should know who they are right now.
If you were studying to be a surgeon, which medical school would you pick? The one with the best teaching reputation, or the one next to the beach?
I am not father time [yet] but i have seen guys with full CIR-multi ratings that could not fly a C210 around an NDB. Or remember what the conditions for descent below the MDA are. Or verbalise a plan of action for how will fly a particular approach and what they planned to do off the bottom of the approach, visual/not visual/circling. Or turned the wrong way entering a holding pattern in a pre-employment sim test, or could not orient themselves to an NDB or VOR indication. Seen guys that did the hard yards in GA that missed out on their big break into turbines or jets coz they had poor skills and insufficient knowledge. Maybe it was poor attitudes to study and keeping proficient, maybe it was poor training, maybe both.
Pick a school that has trained a few thousand pilots, specialises in IFR, has well maintained sims, and at least two instructors with grey hair 10,000+ hours. Everything else is window dressing. Pay them what they ask, on time, and behave yourself while you are there.
Alice Springs.
Expensive, compared to Adelaide, not compared to Sydney.
Approximately five hundred single females on any given night, nurses, teachers, backpackers from all over zer vorldt. Think Melanka's! Also pubs in casino, couple of resort hotels, etc etc.
Casino with visiting bands and shows and five star feeds all the way to camping in riverbeds under the stars with your cask of rough red.
Lots of friendly people who look to meet new people and make new friends.
Give it a go mate!
Price and job opportunities and getting a 'useful' endorsement on a 'working' aeroplane are just window dressing.
Spend your money on an IFR school that has trained hundreds or thousands of guys in your position. There are not many around. You should know who they are right now.
If you were studying to be a surgeon, which medical school would you pick? The one with the best teaching reputation, or the one next to the beach?
I am not father time [yet] but i have seen guys with full CIR-multi ratings that could not fly a C210 around an NDB. Or remember what the conditions for descent below the MDA are. Or verbalise a plan of action for how will fly a particular approach and what they planned to do off the bottom of the approach, visual/not visual/circling. Or turned the wrong way entering a holding pattern in a pre-employment sim test, or could not orient themselves to an NDB or VOR indication. Seen guys that did the hard yards in GA that missed out on their big break into turbines or jets coz they had poor skills and insufficient knowledge. Maybe it was poor attitudes to study and keeping proficient, maybe it was poor training, maybe both.
Pick a school that has trained a few thousand pilots, specialises in IFR, has well maintained sims, and at least two instructors with grey hair 10,000+ hours. Everything else is window dressing. Pay them what they ask, on time, and behave yourself while you are there.
Alice Springs.
Expensive, compared to Adelaide, not compared to Sydney.
Approximately five hundred single females on any given night, nurses, teachers, backpackers from all over zer vorldt.
Think Melanka's! Also pubs in casino, couple of resort hotels, etc etc.Casino with visiting bands and shows and five star feeds all the way to camping in riverbeds under the stars with your cask of rough red.
Lots of friendly people who look to meet new people and make new friends.
Give it a go mate!
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Ops Normal,
Rightyo, I'm with ya now.
Hope that automotive beast of yours is still going strong! That was an interesting drive, especially when it came to crossing the Todd... (!)
Will be in touch via email.
520.
--break--
ITCZ,
Thanks for your input there. Sounds pretty sensible to me. The outfit I'm considering going with has trained countless pilots for the MECIR and have a pretty good reputation, they specialise in IFR, however I don't know of they quite fit the "has well maintained sims, and at least two instructors with grey hair 10,000+ hours" description. Might have to research that one a bit more before parting with any dosh.
Heed what you're saying in regards to the quality of the training and attitude towards study, also. I guess it's a matter of 'maintaining' the qualifications one has in the theoretical aspect.
Looking forward to breaking into Alice quite a lot, actually. Especially when you lay it out like that. Then again, Broome was laid out to me in a similar sorta way and was nothing shy of a fiasco, but we've learned a tad since then.
Thanks for your help.
520.
Rightyo, I'm with ya now.
Hope that automotive beast of yours is still going strong! That was an interesting drive, especially when it came to crossing the Todd... (!)
Will be in touch via email.
520.
--break--
ITCZ,
Thanks for your input there. Sounds pretty sensible to me. The outfit I'm considering going with has trained countless pilots for the MECIR and have a pretty good reputation, they specialise in IFR, however I don't know of they quite fit the "has well maintained sims, and at least two instructors with grey hair 10,000+ hours" description. Might have to research that one a bit more before parting with any dosh.
Heed what you're saying in regards to the quality of the training and attitude towards study, also. I guess it's a matter of 'maintaining' the qualifications one has in the theoretical aspect.
Looking forward to breaking into Alice quite a lot, actually. Especially when you lay it out like that. Then again, Broome was laid out to me in a similar sorta way and was nothing shy of a fiasco, but we've learned a tad since then.
Thanks for your help.
520.
Yep, Ole Flashy is still going strong, and I'm still waiting for the Todd to flow again so that I can wash the underside again.
Will answer your email after hang-over abates somewhat (think State of Origin).....
Will answer your email after hang-over abates somewhat (think State of Origin).....
