Student Loans and Pilot training
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You mean 3000 hours, a space shuttle rating, and the ability to stand on your head while drinking a glass of water and singing simutanously wasn't always the bench mark for an airline job in New Zealand?!!? 
Thinking selfishly here, There will therefore be less competition for that elusive first job. i back what is happeing. Weeds out the ones who want to fly from those who do it because they have nothing else to do." Just put in on my Loan" Always has been to easy to get a student loan for the simple reason Flying schools will try train you and take your money even if they know and I quote "will never make it." Looks like they will be alot of flying clubs struggling next year if this goes though.
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Hooray, maybe my complaint to MP Rick Barker (employment is part of his portfolio), about the loan/employment/pilot numbers may not have fallen on deaf ears!!
...anyone know if the student loan thing (whatever the limit) can be used on a type rating??
...anyone know if the student loan thing (whatever the limit) can be used on a type rating??
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do any other current aviaition students feel there being screwed in the arse by there flying school ..
I feel really ill ..
maybe i should have been a doctor ..at least i know there screaming out for them and theres work right out of uni ..
I feel really ill ..
maybe i should have been a doctor ..at least i know there screaming out for them and theres work right out of uni ..
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Its good to hear that alot of the shady operators and sharks living off manipulated teenagers are about to get a wake up call.
I have told various instructors that I couldnt work for an outfit willingly taking money off the unwary knowing that they will not get a job.
You know the type of student pilot I am talking about, the many that drift into training outfits around the country that could not pass a basic interview. Due to lack of people skills, bad hygene, uncoordination, poor mental capacity etc.
But I am told these students are the type that training organisations like as they will take longer than average to pass licenses and are more likley to spend more of their loans.
These instructors deserve to not only to have their income pool dry up, a smack in the head wouldnt go amiss.
Legit operators not living off the loans will carry on without a blip in income.
I have told various instructors that I couldnt work for an outfit willingly taking money off the unwary knowing that they will not get a job.
You know the type of student pilot I am talking about, the many that drift into training outfits around the country that could not pass a basic interview. Due to lack of people skills, bad hygene, uncoordination, poor mental capacity etc.
But I am told these students are the type that training organisations like as they will take longer than average to pass licenses and are more likley to spend more of their loans.
These instructors deserve to not only to have their income pool dry up, a smack in the head wouldnt go amiss.
Legit operators not living off the loans will carry on without a blip in income.
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Legit operators not living off the loans will carry on without a blip in income
As for accepting students who are unlikely to make the grade, I would make two comments. Firstly I agree that a value judgement can often be made on day one as to an individuals chances of success. I have said to some that I think that they will stuggle but its water off a ducks back to most of them. Secondly though, is it an instructors place to tell someone that they are wasting their money? These are big boys and girls. For those aged over 20, our magnificent ministry of education says that, where loans etc are available, everyone is entitled to an oportunity to fail. Selection procedures are not allowed it seems so a lot of money is wasted in aviation training in this country.
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is it an instructors place to tell someone that they are wasting their money? These are big boys and girls. For those aged over 20, our magnificent ministry of education says that, where loans etc are available, everyone is entitled to an oportunity to fail. Selection procedures are not allowed it seems so a lot of money is wasted in aviation training in this country.
It may not be our job to tell these sub standard wannabe's that they are having the p!ss taken out of them and they will never make the grade as pilots ... but I'd rather be telling it to them now than telling it to their next of kin a couple of months down the track!
I really really hope and pray that it doesn't come to that, but the trouble is that you actually have to let them go solo at some stage if you want to keep them hanging round. Some of these schools are walking a very very fine line between 'bleeding the wannabe for every penny they've got before we kick them out' and 'letting the sub standard student get into situations they should never have been allowed into in the first place'.
There's far too much of this going on now in more than a few loan approved training organisations and it makes me sick to be honest, I reckon a bloody good 'corporate manslaughter' charge levelled at one of these CFI's might be what it takes to wake up the rest of the industry.
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Luke, I have often thought about setting up an aviation training aptitude test (but I'm not qualified to do so) which would be voluntary but would give prospective students an indication of their suitability to train as a pilot. It would be mainly for those who aspire to be airline pilots. Most students could get to CPL level if they pulled finger but some are unlikely to get any further from my observations. This may have saved them the trauma of paying back horrendous loans. I can see your target CFIs loving that idea.
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Not on to piss in the fire but it's about time the govt reduced the amount of people getting sl's to learn to fly.
I must admit that I got one to do my IR in 95 but that was cause I did not have the cashflow at the time. Think there was about 5-6 that dropped out of the theory courses after the money had gone in, still saw them there tho, flying all the money on jollys instead of the IFR theory and flying. Sad thing is that you subconciously pick them at the start of any course.
The aero clubs will be the ones that carry on through it all cause they don't do sl's. People learn to fly there for the whole scene not just for a mass produced lisence, although I found my instructors exellent, and the training very thorough.
Will be interesting to see who walks and who folds next year, or more so, what type of training you can get through the schools, ie: types of course and how much they diversify from the standard.
You might be able to get a degree in Horticulture with a free ppl or half price cpl thrown in...
Certinly going to weed out the not so comitted.
Student loans do suck though you have to admit, I'm getting married next year and looking for a house now and the banks don't like to be second on the food chain if you can't pay the mortgage.
(HMMMMMMMMMMM) oh well, s#$t happens
I must admit that I got one to do my IR in 95 but that was cause I did not have the cashflow at the time. Think there was about 5-6 that dropped out of the theory courses after the money had gone in, still saw them there tho, flying all the money on jollys instead of the IFR theory and flying. Sad thing is that you subconciously pick them at the start of any course.
The aero clubs will be the ones that carry on through it all cause they don't do sl's. People learn to fly there for the whole scene not just for a mass produced lisence, although I found my instructors exellent, and the training very thorough.
Will be interesting to see who walks and who folds next year, or more so, what type of training you can get through the schools, ie: types of course and how much they diversify from the standard.
You might be able to get a degree in Horticulture with a free ppl or half price cpl thrown in...
Certinly going to weed out the not so comitted.
Student loans do suck though you have to admit, I'm getting married next year and looking for a house now and the banks don't like to be second on the food chain if you can't pay the mortgage.
(HMMMMMMMMMMM) oh well, s#$t happens
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Ok ok so the discussion continues, and to fill in some of the blanks about myself, im am one of the feared few newcomers with a student loan
the word was handed to us during the week that from december 31st there will be no new loans and no extensions to exsisting loans for pilots
this makes me on of the fortunate few that will have managed to get my CPL(H) in a year and able to get out there and start sweeping hangers waiting for one of you old guys to fail a medical
personally im keen to give it all ago its been a life long dream that with alot more hard work will become a reality
the word was handed to us during the week that from december 31st there will be no new loans and no extensions to exsisting loans for pilots
this makes me on of the fortunate few that will have managed to get my CPL(H) in a year and able to get out there and start sweeping hangers waiting for one of you old guys to fail a medical
personally im keen to give it all ago its been a life long dream that with alot more hard work will become a reality
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Jack Sprat..
Massey have been using that WOMBAT test to screen their intakes.. however I'm not entirely sure if it's just a formality...
BTW WOMBAT stands for "Wonderous Original Method of Basic Airmanship Testing" ... no s#it... Thats what the original symposium paper defined it as...
Massey have been using that WOMBAT test to screen their intakes.. however I'm not entirely sure if it's just a formality...
BTW WOMBAT stands for "Wonderous Original Method of Basic Airmanship Testing" ... no s#it... Thats what the original symposium paper defined it as...
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It just seems a shame that flying will be placed back into the realms of the rich. Loans are there to allow people with low incomes to get "that chance".
I have heard there are students applying for loans when they, or their parents, are in a position to afford it. Therefore putting those without the readies to go without an opportunity.
Therefore, maybe it should considered that "means" testing be brought into the equation.
I have heard there are students applying for loans when they, or their parents, are in a position to afford it. Therefore putting those without the readies to go without an opportunity.
Therefore, maybe it should considered that "means" testing be brought into the equation.
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1/ Prior to the student loan scheme there was no shortage of pilots, or perceived future shortage, or perceived strategic gain.
2/ This begs the question - Why do it?
Prior to this scheme many of those who trained did so with money earned doing whatever they could to pay. It was not a "realm of the rich" although it certainly did help.
The fact the system was poorly set up and badly administered only adds to the question. Have heard of these abuses even from over here. Like adding a rotary endorsment to your ATPL when you are shortly to retire etc. But then the scheme permits it , so why not?
Congrats to those of you quick enough to make use of the scheme.
Pity on those who come after you though. They will be doing it the old way AND waiting for a long time for the glut of licenses to dry up.
Cannot help but think the money wasted on this exercise could have been better spent on say, a strike wing for your airforce perhaps?
2/ This begs the question - Why do it?
Prior to this scheme many of those who trained did so with money earned doing whatever they could to pay. It was not a "realm of the rich" although it certainly did help.
The fact the system was poorly set up and badly administered only adds to the question. Have heard of these abuses even from over here. Like adding a rotary endorsment to your ATPL when you are shortly to retire etc. But then the scheme permits it , so why not?
Congrats to those of you quick enough to make use of the scheme.
Pity on those who come after you though. They will be doing it the old way AND waiting for a long time for the glut of licenses to dry up.
Cannot help but think the money wasted on this exercise could have been better spent on say, a strike wing for your airforce perhaps?
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And the winner is?
So who is the winner - the student, the owner of the school or society in general?
As stated before (in this thread) - it all comes down to supply and demand.
Firstly (and being repititious) there are few countries that offer loans for aviation like NZ - you need a rich daddy in Europe and beyond, so be grateful.
However, the access to places and ease of getting funding means there are more pilots looking for work than right hand and left hand seats combined. The added cost (or problems) with the transferability of the licence (or the professional qualification) means that for NZ trained pilots overseas employment opportunities may be limited. If you train as a nurse you can transfer your qualification almost anywhere for a fee payable to the local registration body - even though the practices and roles/specifications may be very different. the worldwide shortage of health professionals means they can earn big bucks overseas to pay off training, and as people are always sick (and the population ageing) the demand there will increase, As we all know things like SARS, invading countires, terrorism, all have a negative impact on air travel.
I do not think that having the NZQA (whom in my experience are dumb and dumber in their workings) on the aviation scene, validating degrees is of any value, and it is only by their involvement that these loans are available. Degrees and beyond are there to provide students the ability to demonstrate their assimilation and synthesis of knowledge by applying theory to practice, However, degrees are about identifying new ways of working, through dissertations, etc. In aviation the major concerns are safety and good airmanship (intrinsically linked), which are competancy based, rather than solely knowledge based. Considerable work has been done in a variety of fields to identify strategies to credit practice rather than exams. Why do the likes of Massey and Wintech have so much emphasis on business when those studying want to fly, not run an airline? Purely to get the academic credit to allow for funding.
I am watching with interest the growth of the Wananga in NZ - you know the lot who offer free courses in all sorts of nonsence - usually with the free tracksuit that seems to be mandatory! They are working there way into other industries, regardless of regulation (and as someone with close involvement with health care I know they are upsetting the apple cart with some of their programmes). They have already eroded many programmes within the Polytech sector and are now the largest tertiary provider in NZ
It will be interesting to see if they align themselves with any training organisations (e.g. clubs) to attempt to generate a new stream of business
As stated before (in this thread) - it all comes down to supply and demand.
Firstly (and being repititious) there are few countries that offer loans for aviation like NZ - you need a rich daddy in Europe and beyond, so be grateful.
However, the access to places and ease of getting funding means there are more pilots looking for work than right hand and left hand seats combined. The added cost (or problems) with the transferability of the licence (or the professional qualification) means that for NZ trained pilots overseas employment opportunities may be limited. If you train as a nurse you can transfer your qualification almost anywhere for a fee payable to the local registration body - even though the practices and roles/specifications may be very different. the worldwide shortage of health professionals means they can earn big bucks overseas to pay off training, and as people are always sick (and the population ageing) the demand there will increase, As we all know things like SARS, invading countires, terrorism, all have a negative impact on air travel.
I do not think that having the NZQA (whom in my experience are dumb and dumber in their workings) on the aviation scene, validating degrees is of any value, and it is only by their involvement that these loans are available. Degrees and beyond are there to provide students the ability to demonstrate their assimilation and synthesis of knowledge by applying theory to practice, However, degrees are about identifying new ways of working, through dissertations, etc. In aviation the major concerns are safety and good airmanship (intrinsically linked), which are competancy based, rather than solely knowledge based. Considerable work has been done in a variety of fields to identify strategies to credit practice rather than exams. Why do the likes of Massey and Wintech have so much emphasis on business when those studying want to fly, not run an airline? Purely to get the academic credit to allow for funding.
I am watching with interest the growth of the Wananga in NZ - you know the lot who offer free courses in all sorts of nonsence - usually with the free tracksuit that seems to be mandatory! They are working there way into other industries, regardless of regulation (and as someone with close involvement with health care I know they are upsetting the apple cart with some of their programmes). They have already eroded many programmes within the Polytech sector and are now the largest tertiary provider in NZ
It will be interesting to see if they align themselves with any training organisations (e.g. clubs) to attempt to generate a new stream of business
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I'm alright Jack, screw the rest of you
One thing that hasn't been discussed yet, in fact it's been incredibly well concealed throughout all this winding-up-of-aviation-student-loans drama, is that Steve Maharey - a.k.a. the Associate Minister of Education and the man that's driving this whole fees maxima policy - put his daughter through a student-loan-funded CPL/IR last year 
How convenient that there'll now be nowhere near as many people nipping at her heels while she makes her way through G.A.
Wonder if she got the idea from Michael Cullen's little girl who I believe has already done the fast-track-to-the-airlines thing now?
Wonder if any other sodding senior labour government ministers have conveniently put their kids through taxpayer-funded CPL/IRs recently, just before daddy pulled the pin on student loans? 
How convenient that there'll now be nowhere near as many people nipping at her heels while she makes her way through G.A.
Wonder if she got the idea from Michael Cullen's little girl who I believe has already done the fast-track-to-the-airlines thing now?
Wonder if any other sodding senior labour government ministers have conveniently put their kids through taxpayer-funded CPL/IRs recently, just before daddy pulled the pin on student loans?
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A question for the chief pilot's, CFI's etc out there.
Who would you be more likely to take on? Someone who payed there own way through or someone who was S.L funded? (assuming they were fairly similar people)
I'm starting to think that 4 years of working my butt off to pay for the flying has been in vain. Are there any others out there in the same postiion cause I feel like I'm the only one. Maybe I should have jumped on the NZQA bandwagon with the rest of them.
Who would you be more likely to take on? Someone who payed there own way through or someone who was S.L funded? (assuming they were fairly similar people)
I'm starting to think that 4 years of working my butt off to pay for the flying has been in vain. Are there any others out there in the same postiion cause I feel like I'm the only one. Maybe I should have jumped on the NZQA bandwagon with the rest of them.
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Hey Duff that is another interesting twist! But is there any real difference between putting the slog in before commencing your training (and raising the funds) or getting a big loan and paying it off after your training? If ''Daddy'' has indulged you with your PPL gratis, versus the kid who has worked their ar5e off I know which I'd pick (NB I'm not a CFI or chief pilot).
The other thing that perhaps hasn't been discussed is the age thing. The earlier you get to CPL seems to be determined as the better, given the fact that you have more time early on. However, airlines want people who function as a member of a team, so where (or how) is the potential applicant expected to demonstrate their ability to cope with a range of stimuli (e.g. in an emergency event) or their ability to work with a range of personalities?
The other thing that perhaps hasn't been discussed is the age thing. The earlier you get to CPL seems to be determined as the better, given the fact that you have more time early on. However, airlines want people who function as a member of a team, so where (or how) is the potential applicant expected to demonstrate their ability to cope with a range of stimuli (e.g. in an emergency event) or their ability to work with a range of personalities?