View Poll Results: What do I do???
Leave your job and get a student loan for $60 000
32
18.60%
Get a commercial license while working and instruct part time
99
57.56%
Give up flying all together
41
23.84%
Voters: 172. This poll is closed
What do I do???
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What do I do???
"To fly, or not to fly, that is the question."
Scenario...
I LOVE to fly. If I dont fly I think I get some kind of PMS or something. Not that bad really but I find myself running outside and any hint of an aeroplane flying past my house, followed by me saying, "Bastard! I should be doing that."
I am hoping to do my PPL flight test in a week or so, and I am thinking of going commercial. I have 150 Hours (used to have my license in Africa) and I am looking at studying the commercial license on my own while I work.
I hold a 9-5 job with some kind of security ( I work with computers and hate 'em! )
My concern is the job market here, it is pretty dismal from what I see. Getting an instructors rating seems impossible since you have to do so much classroom time which you dont seem to be able to do part time. I would love to instruct, in fact I did a course on instructing before.
Do I pay for my commercail exams and my flight test and then try and freelance, is there any work there?
HELP!!!!
Scenario...
I LOVE to fly. If I dont fly I think I get some kind of PMS or something. Not that bad really but I find myself running outside and any hint of an aeroplane flying past my house, followed by me saying, "Bastard! I should be doing that."
I am hoping to do my PPL flight test in a week or so, and I am thinking of going commercial. I have 150 Hours (used to have my license in Africa) and I am looking at studying the commercial license on my own while I work.
I hold a 9-5 job with some kind of security ( I work with computers and hate 'em! )
My concern is the job market here, it is pretty dismal from what I see. Getting an instructors rating seems impossible since you have to do so much classroom time which you dont seem to be able to do part time. I would love to instruct, in fact I did a course on instructing before.
Do I pay for my commercail exams and my flight test and then try and freelance, is there any work there?
HELP!!!!
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what to do
I did my commerical part time while i was also working 9- 5. It took me a while, but i made it in the end. I then left my job, did an instructor rating full time for two months while working part time at night and on the weekends. I was then lucky enough to get a job instructing at the school where i completed the rating.
It may take you a while, but stick with it.. and in the end you will make it!
It may take you a while, but stick with it.. and in the end you will make it!
If you can get anything instructing part time then do it, just don't do it for too long, same as skydiving, good to get your first couple of hundred and consolidate but make sure you make a break up North when you can and get into the real stuff, I love it, and where I am at the pay is quite good.
Besides no job is all that secure anymore............
Good Luck!
Willie
Besides no job is all that secure anymore............
Good Luck!
Willie
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I had the same problem / choice a few years ago now. I was making great money doing what I was doing (at least 2.5 times what I am now!!).
Finally it came down to a choice of either fullfilling a life long ambition, or deciding to settle for second best, yet still be relatively financially secure. In the end it came down to thinking if I don't go for it then I'll always know I settled for second best. I'd rather give it a go and at the end of the day be happy that if it didn't work out then I'd tried, and / or live out doing something I love.
Money isn't so good - but if that's your motivation you're in the wrong game!
Your predicament is why I dislike flying schools so much. YOU are the paying customer! YOU tell them when you can fly and train and get THEM to work around YOU!! This seems to be the only industry where you pay upwards of $180 per hour to be treated like cr#p. Too many people fail to remember the old supply and demand thing. There are so many instructors desperate for hours who will fly around your schedule - they have no choice, for any number of reasons.....
Name another profession where you offer to pay (min) $35K+ and and they tell you when they will give you the priviledge of taking your money. YOU are in charge! Shop around till you find someone willing to provide the service you need. Don't be suckered into being sold "The Dream", ie: "Train with us, get an instructor's rating, instruct for free for 6 months and Qantas will be begging to employ you...". Heard it all too often.
Never work for free. You paid and worked too hard for it all.
One last thing - for an instructor's rating if you can find another "training buddy" then you will reduce your training costs. Instead of paying for an instructor to play the passive "student" role, you will have a training partner to do it for free, and vice versa. Not sure about the exact details, but look into it.
I have never regretted my choice. Job satisfaction is everything. A lot of polotics and rubbish to put up with, but find a job where that doesn't happen.
Good luck with your choice!
Finally it came down to a choice of either fullfilling a life long ambition, or deciding to settle for second best, yet still be relatively financially secure. In the end it came down to thinking if I don't go for it then I'll always know I settled for second best. I'd rather give it a go and at the end of the day be happy that if it didn't work out then I'd tried, and / or live out doing something I love.
Money isn't so good - but if that's your motivation you're in the wrong game!
Your predicament is why I dislike flying schools so much. YOU are the paying customer! YOU tell them when you can fly and train and get THEM to work around YOU!! This seems to be the only industry where you pay upwards of $180 per hour to be treated like cr#p. Too many people fail to remember the old supply and demand thing. There are so many instructors desperate for hours who will fly around your schedule - they have no choice, for any number of reasons.....
Name another profession where you offer to pay (min) $35K+ and and they tell you when they will give you the priviledge of taking your money. YOU are in charge! Shop around till you find someone willing to provide the service you need. Don't be suckered into being sold "The Dream", ie: "Train with us, get an instructor's rating, instruct for free for 6 months and Qantas will be begging to employ you...". Heard it all too often.
Never work for free. You paid and worked too hard for it all.
One last thing - for an instructor's rating if you can find another "training buddy" then you will reduce your training costs. Instead of paying for an instructor to play the passive "student" role, you will have a training partner to do it for free, and vice versa. Not sure about the exact details, but look into it.
I have never regretted my choice. Job satisfaction is everything. A lot of polotics and rubbish to put up with, but find a job where that doesn't happen.
Good luck with your choice!
PPRuNeaholic
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I voted for your first option, ie "Leave your job and get a student loan for $60 000", but with the following proviso.
From what you've posted, I believe that you really want to fly. You want it more than you've ever wanted anything before. If this isn't the case then you better record me as voting for item 3! You MUST be prepared to walk barefooted over broken glass for your vocation - it's THAT sort of dedication that's needed.
The industry has a way of weeding out those who don't have that much dedication.
And now for my own story, in case it helps...
I held down a pretty well paying 9-5 job in the public service. It got to the stage where I absolutely hated it. By that stage, I'd used my income to gain something that, in those days, was called a Restricted PPL and then an Unrestricted PPL, then a Class 4 Instrument Rating (Night VMC). Yeah, it really WAS a while ago.
Anyway, so I stayed employed and kept using my income to pay my way thru a CPL. It took quite a while and I ended up getting older, of course, and therefore ended up without the option of working for an airline. After about 1000 hours of joy flights and charter, I did an instructor rating and got my first instructing job at the school where I trained - it belonged to the late, great George Campbell, at Mudgee.
That led to many things in what has become a long, if somewhat indistinguished, career. But I don't regret a minute of it.
The thing is, in your circumstance, you'll be better served by getting out and doing it. And the only way to do it properly is to do it all without the hindrance of a job. So, go get the loan, leave your job and get stuck into the CPL and ATPL theory. Get it all done.
Take the advice offered by No. 15, and others, in choosing a school.
If your emotions rebel at the thought of leaving the comfort and security of your current job, then a full time aviation career will NEVER be for you. Never. In that event, your choice is between options 2 and 3 and, as you clearly want to fly, maybe you need to settle for option 2.
If this sounds like I'm "having a bit each way", then so be it. The fact is that it's impossible to know how you really feel. I suspect that, because you've posted the question and the poll, you may be unsure of your own level of commitment and dedication to the "hard yards" that we've all had to go thru. Think again about the concept of walking barefoot over broken glass because it WILL be a lot like that.
From what you've posted, I believe that you really want to fly. You want it more than you've ever wanted anything before. If this isn't the case then you better record me as voting for item 3! You MUST be prepared to walk barefooted over broken glass for your vocation - it's THAT sort of dedication that's needed.
The industry has a way of weeding out those who don't have that much dedication.
And now for my own story, in case it helps...
I held down a pretty well paying 9-5 job in the public service. It got to the stage where I absolutely hated it. By that stage, I'd used my income to gain something that, in those days, was called a Restricted PPL and then an Unrestricted PPL, then a Class 4 Instrument Rating (Night VMC). Yeah, it really WAS a while ago.
Anyway, so I stayed employed and kept using my income to pay my way thru a CPL. It took quite a while and I ended up getting older, of course, and therefore ended up without the option of working for an airline. After about 1000 hours of joy flights and charter, I did an instructor rating and got my first instructing job at the school where I trained - it belonged to the late, great George Campbell, at Mudgee.
That led to many things in what has become a long, if somewhat indistinguished, career. But I don't regret a minute of it.
The thing is, in your circumstance, you'll be better served by getting out and doing it. And the only way to do it properly is to do it all without the hindrance of a job. So, go get the loan, leave your job and get stuck into the CPL and ATPL theory. Get it all done.
Take the advice offered by No. 15, and others, in choosing a school.
If your emotions rebel at the thought of leaving the comfort and security of your current job, then a full time aviation career will NEVER be for you. Never. In that event, your choice is between options 2 and 3 and, as you clearly want to fly, maybe you need to settle for option 2.
If this sounds like I'm "having a bit each way", then so be it. The fact is that it's impossible to know how you really feel. I suspect that, because you've posted the question and the poll, you may be unsure of your own level of commitment and dedication to the "hard yards" that we've all had to go thru. Think again about the concept of walking barefoot over broken glass because it WILL be a lot like that.
PPRuNe's Paramedic
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Oz... Regarding The late great George Campbell of Mudgee fame...
You got that right! He was a character if ever Ive met one!....
Had the pleasure each time he came over the hill for a drink or two..... he struck me as one who had forgotten more than Id ever learn... He was so cheeky at times with a wicked sense of humour...
*raises toast once again "to George!"*
You got that right! He was a character if ever Ive met one!....
Had the pleasure each time he came over the hill for a drink or two..... he struck me as one who had forgotten more than Id ever learn... He was so cheeky at times
with a wicked sense of humour...*raises toast once again "to George!"*
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There are many chioces and many correct ways in getting this whose flying stuff sorted out.
The important thing is to make a very firm decision to keep going!
If you decide not to continue, years from now you may hate yourself for that choice.
I am not going to give advice either way, student loan versus part time work etc. All can work but it comes down to the individual's situation re finance, family, geographical situation and so on.
I took out loans and learnt while I was working full time. This worked for me.
I have seen many fall by the way side due to motivation,( or the lack of), If you have a strong enough drive you will find a way that works for you.
Hope these idle thoughts help
The important thing is to make a very firm decision to keep going!
If you decide not to continue, years from now you may hate yourself for that choice.
I am not going to give advice either way, student loan versus part time work etc. All can work but it comes down to the individual's situation re finance, family, geographical situation and so on.
I took out loans and learnt while I was working full time. This worked for me.
I have seen many fall by the way side due to motivation,( or the lack of), If you have a strong enough drive you will find a way that works for you.
Hope these idle thoughts help
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my 2 cents worth would be,
Flag the commercial schools and go somewhere like the auckland aero club, work and do your flying in the weekends or after work. It wont take that long.
Thats what I did
I did my IR course at ardmore f/s and found them very professional, not sure what they are like now tho, but they make you think you will be employed real quick and its easy to sign up.
Also the student loan intrest rates are higher than the banks at the mo...
Veeeeeery keen to sign you up to the whole lot by the sounds of it.
I reckon you should flag the student loan if you can, just do the instructional techniques course at the schools when you are ready. it would take a couple of months to do the c cat if you worked hard at it.
Flag the commercial schools and go somewhere like the auckland aero club, work and do your flying in the weekends or after work. It wont take that long.
Thats what I did
I did my IR course at ardmore f/s and found them very professional, not sure what they are like now tho, but they make you think you will be employed real quick and its easy to sign up.
Also the student loan intrest rates are higher than the banks at the mo...
Veeeeeery keen to sign you up to the whole lot by the sounds of it.
I reckon you should flag the student loan if you can, just do the instructional techniques course at the schools when you are ready. it would take a couple of months to do the c cat if you worked hard at it.
xelophab
I don’t think there is any right or wrong way to go in getting you CPL. Just don’t let any flying school try to convince you to pay up front. Pay as you go and if they won’t come to this, find another school. They maybe desperate for cash and could go out of business tomorrow.
I personally did my CPL part time, paying as I went, while working full time over four years. I could have done it quicker and for less up front money if I had done it full time but I didn’t want to be left with a huge debt at the end of it. Mind you interest rates at the time were over 20% for personal loans so borrowing money could have been very expensive if I had gone the full time way. The mid to late Eighties wasn’t the time to be borrowing large amounts of money at fixed interest rates.
I don’t think there is any right or wrong way to go in getting you CPL. Just don’t let any flying school try to convince you to pay up front. Pay as you go and if they won’t come to this, find another school. They maybe desperate for cash and could go out of business tomorrow.
I personally did my CPL part time, paying as I went, while working full time over four years. I could have done it quicker and for less up front money if I had done it full time but I didn’t want to be left with a huge debt at the end of it. Mind you interest rates at the time were over 20% for personal loans so borrowing money could have been very expensive if I had gone the full time way. The mid to late Eighties wasn’t the time to be borrowing large amounts of money at fixed interest rates.
g
Firstly, I would ignore this sort of comment.
I have been an instructor, charter pilot (mainly in the NT) RPT, jets. The most satisfying was instructing. The most unsatisfying is my current job. It just pays the best though. The one that is a short term career would have to be charter pilot, there is no future or money in that type of job.
You, xelophab, need to sit back and decide where in the industry you want to be. Instructing is very rewarding, and if you stick with it and are any good it can provide a living, so can most other directions.
If instructing is not your long term goal, well, I would suggest don't venture there to start with, do the potential students a favour and be a charter pilot.
what ever you decide to do, if you are keen enough you will get there, you may need a few part time jobs to support you along the way.
Good luck, choose your flying training organisation and instructor carefully.
If you can get anything instructing part time then do it, just don't do it for too long, same as skydiving, good to get your first couple of hundred and consolidate but make sure you make a break up North when you can and get into the real stuff, I love it, and where I am at the pay is quite good.
You, xelophab, need to sit back and decide where in the industry you want to be. Instructing is very rewarding, and if you stick with it and are any good it can provide a living, so can most other directions.
If instructing is not your long term goal, well, I would suggest don't venture there to start with, do the potential students a favour and be a charter pilot.
what ever you decide to do, if you are keen enough you will get there, you may need a few part time jobs to support you along the way.
Good luck, choose your flying training organisation and instructor carefully.
Last edited by RENURPP; 13th Mar 2003 at 12:46.
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Dudes.
Thanks for the positive feedback and I have made my descision as follows!!!
I am going to get my COM license and instructors rating while working and I have a mate, manamana who is going to help, and I shall do it on my own!
Thanks guys!
Here comes richless days woohoo!
I am going to get my COM license and instructors rating while working and I have a mate, manamana who is going to help, and I shall do it on my own!
Thanks guys!
Here comes richless days woohoo!
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and few other ideas
With the way the industry is moving at the moment, going quite quickly. You might want to get the licence out of the way and either try to find a ga job or go instructing.
With the recruitment going on at the moment it won't be long before the filter down effect takes over.
Air NZ, Freedom and Cathay are hiring and taking quite a few guy/gals from NZ. Eagle and Origin pilots are moving up leaving jobs vacate, so the thrird tier airlines, Mountain Air, Great Barrier Airlines, Sun Air etc will start to fill these gaps along with instructors from various organisations.
Which means in the long run guys like you will be filling those spots.
But it comes down to when will you be ready? I know it's a lot of money to part with BUT if you're not ready then you will get looked over. Hard but true.
I wish you the best in your choice. Don't F&%K Up along the way, but if you do then keep it quiet, and work hard.
[COLOR=skyblue]
With the way the industry is moving at the moment, going quite quickly. You might want to get the licence out of the way and either try to find a ga job or go instructing.
With the recruitment going on at the moment it won't be long before the filter down effect takes over.
Air NZ, Freedom and Cathay are hiring and taking quite a few guy/gals from NZ. Eagle and Origin pilots are moving up leaving jobs vacate, so the thrird tier airlines, Mountain Air, Great Barrier Airlines, Sun Air etc will start to fill these gaps along with instructors from various organisations.
Which means in the long run guys like you will be filling those spots.
But it comes down to when will you be ready? I know it's a lot of money to part with BUT if you're not ready then you will get looked over. Hard but true.
I wish you the best in your choice. Don't F&%K Up along the way, but if you do then keep it quiet, and work hard.
[COLOR=skyblue]
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Some great points here:
RENURRP "If instructing is not your long term goal, well, I would suggest don't venture there to start with, do the potential students a favour and be a charter pilot."
And from the charter companies perspective please leave everything you "learned" whilst in the RHS of the 152 at the door and be prepared to start again.
Always inverted "Flag the commercial schools and go somewhere like.."
Steer clear of these clowns they will empty your pockets and steal your watch whilst they hand you a cup of coffee and invite you into the CFI's office (imagine the top gun soundtrack playing in the back ground with amateur footage of a Warrior doing a touch and go). They all claim to be this and that and all they really are is a bunch of crooked rip off merchants. Trust me I've dealt with them and I gave them the arse pretty quick. What you should consider is some thorough research into finding a real charter company that has a small section dedicated to instructing. These sorts of places will give you a head start in GA and if you plan to make a career of it will save you a lot of anguish. Oh and if some pimply face kid is up on the board as your instructor begin laughing histerically and walk out shaking your head saying to yourself "$200 dollars an hour for that.." Ask for credentials from instructors - you want someone with well rounded experience. By the way if they say they've been doing charters in the seminole - run off.
The main problem is that often the place that you are learning is the place that you are trying to get a job and hence you are scared to pipe up when things are poor or unprofessional. The schools boss the students around like some silly pretend GA boot camp. YOU are an adult - YOU have the money. That makes YOU the employer and them the employees. If they put in a poor performance treat them like employees and give them a written warning - if they keep it up grap your gear and go else where. Books and stationary - look on bulletin bords for this stuff they will try and charge you silly amounts for this stuff.
Good luck,
Mr. Hat
RENURRP "If instructing is not your long term goal, well, I would suggest don't venture there to start with, do the potential students a favour and be a charter pilot."
And from the charter companies perspective please leave everything you "learned" whilst in the RHS of the 152 at the door and be prepared to start again.
Always inverted "Flag the commercial schools and go somewhere like.."
Steer clear of these clowns they will empty your pockets and steal your watch whilst they hand you a cup of coffee and invite you into the CFI's office (imagine the top gun soundtrack playing in the back ground with amateur footage of a Warrior doing a touch and go). They all claim to be this and that and all they really are is a bunch of crooked rip off merchants. Trust me I've dealt with them and I gave them the arse pretty quick. What you should consider is some thorough research into finding a real charter company that has a small section dedicated to instructing. These sorts of places will give you a head start in GA and if you plan to make a career of it will save you a lot of anguish. Oh and if some pimply face kid is up on the board as your instructor begin laughing histerically and walk out shaking your head saying to yourself "$200 dollars an hour for that.." Ask for credentials from instructors - you want someone with well rounded experience. By the way if they say they've been doing charters in the seminole - run off.
The main problem is that often the place that you are learning is the place that you are trying to get a job and hence you are scared to pipe up when things are poor or unprofessional. The schools boss the students around like some silly pretend GA boot camp. YOU are an adult - YOU have the money. That makes YOU the employer and them the employees. If they put in a poor performance treat them like employees and give them a written warning - if they keep it up grap your gear and go else where. Books and stationary - look on bulletin bords for this stuff they will try and charge you silly amounts for this stuff.
Good luck,
Mr. Hat
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well well, should be interesting to follow this one up, in the couple of months since you posted the original thread there's been a few changes around the business ...
The great bombshell has fallen, student loans are no more, so I guess that rules option 1 out.
It also means that option 2 is going to become a right b!tch, since it seems likely that the big sausage factory schools are going to cut adrift a LOT of their instructors at the end of the year, people who are no longer needed in the wake of the demise of the student-loan gravy train they've been riding for the last few years, and the likely 80% reduction in CPL student numbers now that people have to go back to paying for it themselves again. There are dozens and dozens of people in this category sitting about in polytechnics up and down the country right now, fresh and high time C's and probably low hour B's as well, who have got halfway to the airlines, got 5 or 6 or 800 hours, no multi, no guaranteed fresh pack of student-loan suckers to come through the door next year and all of a sudden wondering where their next C152 / tomahawk hour will come from? The smart ones are putting out the feelers to the non-student-loan-approved aero clubs now, because it's a fair bet that they are the only ones that won't be absolutely snowed under with redundant staff in 6 months time.
Regional hiring has also slowed right down, I guess because Cathay put everything on hold after SARS, Eagle etc didn't have to take on the numbers of newbies they were forecasting 6 months ago.
Did you find a good school xelophab and are they gonna stick by their promises, given the new-look flight training industry landscape?
The great bombshell has fallen, student loans are no more, so I guess that rules option 1 out.
It also means that option 2 is going to become a right b!tch, since it seems likely that the big sausage factory schools are going to cut adrift a LOT of their instructors at the end of the year, people who are no longer needed in the wake of the demise of the student-loan gravy train they've been riding for the last few years, and the likely 80% reduction in CPL student numbers now that people have to go back to paying for it themselves again. There are dozens and dozens of people in this category sitting about in polytechnics up and down the country right now, fresh and high time C's and probably low hour B's as well, who have got halfway to the airlines, got 5 or 6 or 800 hours, no multi, no guaranteed fresh pack of student-loan suckers to come through the door next year and all of a sudden wondering where their next C152 / tomahawk hour will come from? The smart ones are putting out the feelers to the non-student-loan-approved aero clubs now, because it's a fair bet that they are the only ones that won't be absolutely snowed under with redundant staff in 6 months time.
Regional hiring has also slowed right down, I guess because Cathay put everything on hold after SARS, Eagle etc didn't have to take on the numbers of newbies they were forecasting 6 months ago.
Did you find a good school xelophab and are they gonna stick by their promises, given the new-look flight training industry landscape?
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Get that Student Loan locked up!
The head honchos may have already pulled the pin on student loans for aviation.
Maybe the children of two MPs must have already qualified so no more requirement?? Ouch!
And make sure they give you what they promise. I understand that there are approx. 12 legal cases against a well known Plamerston North based University affiliated training organisation for failing to deliver......
All the best.
The head honchos may have already pulled the pin on student loans for aviation.
Maybe the children of two MPs must have already qualified so no more requirement?? Ouch!
And make sure they give you what they promise. I understand that there are approx. 12 legal cases against a well known Plamerston North based University affiliated training organisation for failing to deliver......
All the best.
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Xeno,
I was going to suggest looking at the Military option...but then I realised that you're in NZ...need I say more (crying shame !). You could always join the RAAF?!
I was going to suggest looking at the Military option...but then I realised that you're in NZ...need I say more (crying shame !). You could always join the RAAF?!