AOPA needs our help!!!
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Seeing as how there have been 81 replies to this topic and is level with the Smith/Boyd topic, I thought I would try something to kick it along a bit. Also while we wait for someone to see what is happening with AOPA US forums:
A lot has been said, positive and negative about AOPA Australia especially with regard who is running the "show".
Perhaps we should have some nominations for the jobs, ie, President,
Vice President,
Secretary,
Treasurer,
and 3 Board Members; one perhaps a Tech or research officer.
Bound to have some serious response, but there may be some common nominations that can sensibly be put forth.
You never know, if this works, perhaps we could have a pprune election.
This would have to be a wake up call to everyone concerned.
Try to keep it civilised and I guess a bit of humour wouldn't go astray.
Personally I like Marjorie Pagani and you know of course I would be biased toward Bill Hamilton. I have grown fond of Creampuff, hope that gets a nibble
A lot has been said, positive and negative about AOPA Australia especially with regard who is running the "show".
Perhaps we should have some nominations for the jobs, ie, President,
Vice President,
Secretary,
Treasurer,
and 3 Board Members; one perhaps a Tech or research officer.
Bound to have some serious response, but there may be some common nominations that can sensibly be put forth.
You never know, if this works, perhaps we could have a pprune election.
This would have to be a wake up call to everyone concerned.
Try to keep it civilised and I guess a bit of humour wouldn't go astray.
Personally I like Marjorie Pagani and you know of course I would be biased toward Bill Hamilton. I have grown fond of Creampuff, hope that gets a nibble
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Axiom old mate
It'll never beat Smith and boyd, Woomera has it on a sticky!!!! (not fair).
Now I absolutely agree with you on Pagani, she really has what it takes.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Hamilton.
Creampuff, BWAHAHAHAHAHA
It'll never beat Smith and boyd, Woomera has it on a sticky!!!! (not fair).
Now I absolutely agree with you on Pagani, she really has what it takes.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Hamilton.
Creampuff, BWAHAHAHAHAHA
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ulm;
With clever manipulation and a dextrous right and left index finger I now have us agreeing with each other.
How about we get serious and without character assasinations, let me nominate; (not in order of heirachy).
Pagani (Marjorie).
Hamilton (Bill).
Pape Arthur (Dr).
Laming (John).
Dawson (Jim).
Schiff (Barry).
Andersen (David).
Some of these people simply would not get on with one another and some would prefer to remain retired. There is a mix of old blood and new and I believe should be non factional.
I was once wrong (the time I admitted I was wrong), but at least it's a start.
And, remember, an old Jewish proverb that may be apt in your selections;
"The girl who cannot dance says the band can't play".
Can we find some common ground here ?
With clever manipulation and a dextrous right and left index finger I now have us agreeing with each other.
How about we get serious and without character assasinations, let me nominate; (not in order of heirachy).
Pagani (Marjorie).
Hamilton (Bill).
Pape Arthur (Dr).
Laming (John).
Dawson (Jim).
Schiff (Barry).
Andersen (David).
Some of these people simply would not get on with one another and some would prefer to remain retired. There is a mix of old blood and new and I believe should be non factional.
I was once wrong (the time I admitted I was wrong), but at least it's a start.
And, remember, an old Jewish proverb that may be apt in your selections;
"The girl who cannot dance says the band can't play".
Can we find some common ground here ?
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Axiom
Yes, we can reach common ground.
Pagani.
The others I would agree with you on have not recently nominated. So is there a point. (I think I'm about to find out, I just got a call from one on the list).
Yes, we can reach common ground.
Pagani.
The others I would agree with you on have not recently nominated. So is there a point. (I think I'm about to find out, I just got a call from one on the list).
Last edited by ulm; 21st Feb 2003 at 04:13.
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ulm,
Don't keep me in suspense, remember this is hypothetical, and not meant to be sinister.
If what I have read lately, the show needs a wake up call, so, then, let's do it.
I really like some of the Pommy posters on pprune, jetblast, perhaps we can get some to imigrate.
Incidently, I had three inches of rain, last 24 hours, can now pay my AOPA dues. (and perhaps the rest of my long suffering creditors).
Don't keep me in suspense, remember this is hypothetical, and not meant to be sinister.
If what I have read lately, the show needs a wake up call, so, then, let's do it.
I really like some of the Pommy posters on pprune, jetblast, perhaps we can get some to imigrate.
Incidently, I had three inches of rain, last 24 hours, can now pay my AOPA dues. (and perhaps the rest of my long suffering creditors).
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This Forums is open for business and would welcome AOPA members to use it responsibly.
We are NOT competition for AOPA, but we will be happy to host a continuation of the discussion that has been shut down elsewhere for entirely understandable reasons.
I did not see the "offending" email, but from what has been posted so far, it seems that the reaction has been a little OTT.
If someone would care to copy it to me it would help me support of the argument.
Is the robust nature of the way we deal with each other in OZ going to be monstered in to a state of snivelling "coercive sanction".???
For those who haven't seen that term before it was coined by that esteemed and highly respected OZ journalist, Frank Devine. whose CV includes editorship of the New York and Chicago Times, the Australian etc. etc., as the real definition of "political correctness".
We are NOT competition for AOPA, but we will be happy to host a continuation of the discussion that has been shut down elsewhere for entirely understandable reasons.
I did not see the "offending" email, but from what has been posted so far, it seems that the reaction has been a little OTT.
If someone would care to copy it to me it would help me support of the argument.
Is the robust nature of the way we deal with each other in OZ going to be monstered in to a state of snivelling "coercive sanction".???
For those who haven't seen that term before it was coined by that esteemed and highly respected OZ journalist, Frank Devine. whose CV includes editorship of the New York and Chicago Times, the Australian etc. etc., as the real definition of "political correctness".
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AOPA needs our help!!!
There are events unfolding that need a bit of exposure and ventilation.
I am going to merge the "AOPA in trouble" thread with this one and hope that there may be some constructive discussion.
Australia so far has not seen this kind of action and I am greatly surprised that it has even gained legs.
We may have to go to war in Iraq to make a point in regard to a robust public arena, it would be a pity if we were to condone the same behaviour here.
I am going to merge the "AOPA in trouble" thread with this one and hope that there may be some constructive discussion.
Australia so far has not seen this kind of action and I am greatly surprised that it has even gained legs.
We may have to go to war in Iraq to make a point in regard to a robust public arena, it would be a pity if we were to condone the same behaviour here.
Thread Starter
AOPA in trouble!
Sadly it is true, AOPA are in BIG trouble. As of this week the insurance company providing indemnity to the directors withdrew its coverage, seeing at least one director resign and a staff member leave during the last few days. The present financial situation is believed to be very bad and only some sound management from the Board is likely to avoid an administrator moving in soon. At least two members of the Board have refused to place the association first and agree to a total spill of all board positions. An EGM is on the cards. Only a new Board with MP at the helm is likely to work its way through this swamp. The forum I hear was closed because they did not want to expose themselves to any additional risk. The Association now has an urgent responsibility to officially inform its membership of what is going on.
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OK, here I am not in drag.
Axiom, Woomera et al.
The forum did not close because of an ATSB officer's paranoid attack on an AOPA member. It closed because the insurer has declined (but not in writing) to insure AOPA directors against liability arising from AOPA business. So Marjorie Pagani took the correct decision to close it down. Given the rantings of one particular member, can you blame her.
Now, courtesy of the 'forum mafia' (and I don't mean that in the derogatory - they know that) you are all aware I have resigned from the Board.
My reasons are related to the actions of two Board members, you all know who, who in my view have been making deals and running AOPA without the consent of the Board. After Russell Kelly left, John Lyon was appointed treasurer. I personally had no confidence in him in that (or any) position and decided it was in my best interests to resign lest decisions be made that I had no say in, but was still liable for.
I have not seen any indication of the financial position of AOPA since Russell's departure, without insurance I would have been liable for the financial position of the company, had I had confidence, or even knowledge, of how the company was being run that may have been different. I did not have that confidence or knowledge and so chose to resign.
I believe that as of last night John Lyon has been stood down as treasuruer by the Board; but I am not sure of that. I believe all bar Margorie Pagani, Chris McKeown and Bill Pike have been removed from any day to day running of the office or from making statements on AOPA's behalf, I think this is a very good move but again I am not sure of that.
Axiom, I commend Margorie Pagani to you. I said some time ago to Pike that he should stand down and we should elect her as President. He declined in his usual way.
I commend Chris Mckeown to you. He works tirelessly for AOPA and is a very good VP (even if he choses to fly that chugging high wing rubbish).
AOPA desperately needs Russell Kelly back as treasurer. His warnings in the past seem to me to be interestingly close to why the insurer declined to reinsure.
I could never again bring myself to be part of a Board were Bill Hamilton, John Lyon or Richard Rudd members as well.
That said, Bill Hamilton is a very hard worker and extremely valuable as a technical director. It is just that I think he needs to be kept away from the day-to-day running of AOPA. Perhaps even his greatest detractors can agree??? How to solve this, an ex-officio position perhaps.
But, AOPA members own AOPA. It is up to you to do everything you can to save it. In my view, and I have said this to Pike, the whole Board needs to stand at the next election. If the Board will not decide to do that (and I presonally believe Lyon and Hamilton will refuse), then it is up to the members to spill them.
An EGM is the way to do this, but it can can only be called by a Board member or by 100 members. If you are interested in this way forward contact me at
[email protected]
But there is no point in spilling if members don't stand to be elected. Pike often has a go at members about this and I agree with him, the last lot were elected unopposed, so in my view the members only have themselves to blame for the current situation.
Oh and axiom, one other I'd agree with you on is Dawson, so come on Chainsaw, rejoin and put your name in the hat.
Pagani for President
AK
Axiom, Woomera et al.
The forum did not close because of an ATSB officer's paranoid attack on an AOPA member. It closed because the insurer has declined (but not in writing) to insure AOPA directors against liability arising from AOPA business. So Marjorie Pagani took the correct decision to close it down. Given the rantings of one particular member, can you blame her.
Now, courtesy of the 'forum mafia' (and I don't mean that in the derogatory - they know that) you are all aware I have resigned from the Board.
My reasons are related to the actions of two Board members, you all know who, who in my view have been making deals and running AOPA without the consent of the Board. After Russell Kelly left, John Lyon was appointed treasurer. I personally had no confidence in him in that (or any) position and decided it was in my best interests to resign lest decisions be made that I had no say in, but was still liable for.
I have not seen any indication of the financial position of AOPA since Russell's departure, without insurance I would have been liable for the financial position of the company, had I had confidence, or even knowledge, of how the company was being run that may have been different. I did not have that confidence or knowledge and so chose to resign.
I believe that as of last night John Lyon has been stood down as treasuruer by the Board; but I am not sure of that. I believe all bar Margorie Pagani, Chris McKeown and Bill Pike have been removed from any day to day running of the office or from making statements on AOPA's behalf, I think this is a very good move but again I am not sure of that.
Axiom, I commend Margorie Pagani to you. I said some time ago to Pike that he should stand down and we should elect her as President. He declined in his usual way.
I commend Chris Mckeown to you. He works tirelessly for AOPA and is a very good VP (even if he choses to fly that chugging high wing rubbish).
AOPA desperately needs Russell Kelly back as treasurer. His warnings in the past seem to me to be interestingly close to why the insurer declined to reinsure.
I could never again bring myself to be part of a Board were Bill Hamilton, John Lyon or Richard Rudd members as well.
That said, Bill Hamilton is a very hard worker and extremely valuable as a technical director. It is just that I think he needs to be kept away from the day-to-day running of AOPA. Perhaps even his greatest detractors can agree??? How to solve this, an ex-officio position perhaps.
But, AOPA members own AOPA. It is up to you to do everything you can to save it. In my view, and I have said this to Pike, the whole Board needs to stand at the next election. If the Board will not decide to do that (and I presonally believe Lyon and Hamilton will refuse), then it is up to the members to spill them.
An EGM is the way to do this, but it can can only be called by a Board member or by 100 members. If you are interested in this way forward contact me at
[email protected]
But there is no point in spilling if members don't stand to be elected. Pike often has a go at members about this and I agree with him, the last lot were elected unopposed, so in my view the members only have themselves to blame for the current situation.
Oh and axiom, one other I'd agree with you on is Dawson, so come on Chainsaw, rejoin and put your name in the hat.
Pagani for President
AK
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More information needed!
It surprises me to find out that AOPA is a Company, and not an incorporated association.
If liability is the primary concern of all concerned (and what organisation is not going through this right now?), why can't AOPA become an incorporated association, liability limited by the assetts of the association and a book of rules so simple a monkey could run the show. (On agenda next AGM or EGM).
Directors SHOULD be held accountable for company matters, however, is AOPA such a financially significant player in World affairs that we need to put our Board Members necks on the block? AND make AOPA impotent.
There must be someone out there that can enlighten me on this.
IS THIS AN OPTION ?
It surprises me to find out that AOPA is a Company, and not an incorporated association.
If liability is the primary concern of all concerned (and what organisation is not going through this right now?), why can't AOPA become an incorporated association, liability limited by the assetts of the association and a book of rules so simple a monkey could run the show. (On agenda next AGM or EGM).
Directors SHOULD be held accountable for company matters, however, is AOPA such a financially significant player in World affairs that we need to put our Board Members necks on the block? AND make AOPA impotent.
There must be someone out there that can enlighten me on this.
IS THIS AN OPTION ?
Ax
Try to quell your youthful exuberance.
There are companies and there are companies.
Back in the old days, there was a big disadvantage if you incorporated under a State’s or Territory’s associations incorporation legislation but your activities extended beyond that State or Territory: you had to register as a foreign corporation in each of the jurisdictions to which those activities extended.
AOPA’s been around a long time, and its activities aren’t confined to one State or Territory.
The alternative was to register as a company limited by guarantee under the companies legislation. A company formed for non-commercial purposes that applied its income to promoting its objects could also be licensed to be registered without the word “Limited” in its name.
You now know why AOPA doesn’t have Proprietary or Limited in its name: it’s not a proprietary company, and it got a licence to be registered without the word “Limited” in its name.
However, neither the associations incorporation option nor the company limited by guarantee option excludes the officers from liability in all circumstances, especially where other people’s money’s concerned.
Interesting question arises if – repeat if - AOPA can’t pay its bills. I’m told the members, and ex-members who have been ex for less 12 months, can have the guarantee enforced against them. Or perhaps it’s just the officers Snarek: do you know what the amount of the guarantee is, and who is bound by it???
Try to quell your youthful exuberance.
There are companies and there are companies.
Back in the old days, there was a big disadvantage if you incorporated under a State’s or Territory’s associations incorporation legislation but your activities extended beyond that State or Territory: you had to register as a foreign corporation in each of the jurisdictions to which those activities extended.
AOPA’s been around a long time, and its activities aren’t confined to one State or Territory.
The alternative was to register as a company limited by guarantee under the companies legislation. A company formed for non-commercial purposes that applied its income to promoting its objects could also be licensed to be registered without the word “Limited” in its name.
You now know why AOPA doesn’t have Proprietary or Limited in its name: it’s not a proprietary company, and it got a licence to be registered without the word “Limited” in its name.
However, neither the associations incorporation option nor the company limited by guarantee option excludes the officers from liability in all circumstances, especially where other people’s money’s concerned.
Interesting question arises if – repeat if - AOPA can’t pay its bills. I’m told the members, and ex-members who have been ex for less 12 months, can have the guarantee enforced against them. Or perhaps it’s just the officers Snarek: do you know what the amount of the guarantee is, and who is bound by it???
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Someone "bloody" well should say something "bloody" quickly to sort this "bloody" mess out or you will have "bloody" members bailing out "bloody" everywhere if they "bloody well think" they can be held liable for anything more than a "bloody"postage stamp.
Where are all the "bloody"lawyers and those left with the authority to speak on AOPA's behalf?
I can't wait until the next magazine, so someone should "bloody well" speak up on this forum so I can pass it on to my email loop who number a significant amount of "bloody"pissants. (Nearly the amount snarek reckons we need for an EGM).
Most will not now be party to log on to AOPA web site for information because of prior mentioned fears.
Great means of communication !
creampuff, I'm an 80 year old in a 50 year body, but thanks for the youthful bit, I'll tell the leader of the opposition.
Where are all the "bloody"lawyers and those left with the authority to speak on AOPA's behalf?
I can't wait until the next magazine, so someone should "bloody well" speak up on this forum so I can pass it on to my email loop who number a significant amount of "bloody"pissants. (Nearly the amount snarek reckons we need for an EGM).
Most will not now be party to log on to AOPA web site for information because of prior mentioned fears.
Great means of communication !
creampuff, I'm an 80 year old in a 50 year body, but thanks for the youthful bit, I'll tell the leader of the opposition.
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I have heard a rumor that there was letter put up on the AOPA forum about a certain aviation government bureaucrat. Is this the reason the Fed's as in police paid a visit to the office to have it removed? I am lead to believe that this certain bureaucrat has taken legal action against the person who wrote the letter on the forum. If it is true, it does not say too much to our so-called "democratic" governing system in the area general aviation.
I am not too sure how true it is, so need some more input from people closer to the case.
I am not too sure how true it is, so need some more input from people closer to the case.
My apologies, Sir. Your impetuousness is uncharacteristic of an octogenarian.
Don’t worry – I’d be surprised if the guarantee is for a total amount exceeding a few pennies. Be interested to find out its exact terms though.
Don’t worry – I’d be surprised if the guarantee is for a total amount exceeding a few pennies. Be interested to find out its exact terms though.
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Creampuff, I lied. I'm a 50 year old in an 80 year old body. but I told the missus anyway. She reckons it doesn't make much difference.
There is still more input necessary here.
ax
There is still more input necessary here.
ax
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Elections
Someone "bloody" well should say something "bloody" quickly to sort this "bloody" mess out or you will have "bloody" members bailing out "bloody" everywhere if they "bloody well think" they can be held liable for anything more than a "bloody"postage stamp.
Firstly, Why leave when you have the option of removing the problem. Secondly, This all happened on Friday. Weekend is upon us, lets see what happens on Monday.
<mutter mutter sigh fart> When will these people learn. You weaken our association. I have absolute faith in the board as a whole to deal with these issues and more, including the muzzeling of some directors, and the removal of others. VOTE YOUR DIRECTOR IN NOW!
Dog
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Mooney Operator
I believe the guy involved is Brian Hannan who was posting on the AOPA forum. I believe Boyd Munro and a few others are trying to help in over turning the case along with the help of Martin Ferguson.
It is amazing what some of the bureaucrats will try, to silence the truth from coming out or when they are challenged on issues.
For the full details email Brian
I believe the guy involved is Brian Hannan who was posting on the AOPA forum. I believe Boyd Munro and a few others are trying to help in over turning the case along with the help of Martin Ferguson.
It is amazing what some of the bureaucrats will try, to silence the truth from coming out or when they are challenged on issues.
For the full details email Brian
Last edited by Outback Pilot; 23rd Feb 2003 at 21:17.
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Dog;
I apologise for my "bloody" past posting and can only say that it was the frustrated rantings against silence and perhaps stupidity, factions, and legal eagles.
I am now suitably slapped across the face and will do what you suggest, Wait until Monday.
I'm not so sure about having so much faith as you suggest, there being not much of a decision making element left. Is it a quorum?
As far as am EGM goes, what happens if nobody nominates like last election?
I apologise for my "bloody" past posting and can only say that it was the frustrated rantings against silence and perhaps stupidity, factions, and legal eagles.
I am now suitably slapped across the face and will do what you suggest, Wait until Monday.
I'm not so sure about having so much faith as you suggest, there being not much of a decision making element left. Is it a quorum?
As far as am EGM goes, what happens if nobody nominates like last election?
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Reading through the comments i see alot of people out there rushing in to criticise the directors. yes there may be problems but before we start throwing around accusations just remember that these people did step up to the plate to bat i.e they volunteered their services which means there own time outside their normal jobs. simple answer if you dont like what you see step up to the plate and have a go see if you can do it better.
The system is there to alow you to do it so use it. Over the years these volunteers have stood up for our rights defending us in their own time and even take days of their work to do so and what thanks do we give them jack ****, but we are so quick to criticise. What does standing down as a director because you are not happy with other directors do? easy answer nothing but make it worse.
I am sure there are lots of people out there that could run for director if you think you can make the difference do it, if you dont want to volunteer please stop criticising the people who do, sadly this is a typical human trait and not a particularly nice one. lets face it even if the current board are not doing it correctly at least they gave it a go, stupid me thought thats what being an Australian was all about. This thread is only going down one road a road that an already struggling industry does not need, we need to help not criticise. My suggestion step up or shut up and Im sorry if you find that comment offensive and if you do take a closer look at yourself, are you so perfect?
The system is there to alow you to do it so use it. Over the years these volunteers have stood up for our rights defending us in their own time and even take days of their work to do so and what thanks do we give them jack ****, but we are so quick to criticise. What does standing down as a director because you are not happy with other directors do? easy answer nothing but make it worse.
I am sure there are lots of people out there that could run for director if you think you can make the difference do it, if you dont want to volunteer please stop criticising the people who do, sadly this is a typical human trait and not a particularly nice one. lets face it even if the current board are not doing it correctly at least they gave it a go, stupid me thought thats what being an Australian was all about. This thread is only going down one road a road that an already struggling industry does not need, we need to help not criticise. My suggestion step up or shut up and Im sorry if you find that comment offensive and if you do take a closer look at yourself, are you so perfect?