CASA crackdown
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,049
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From: Sydney NSW Australia
wonder how casa would have taken to my AUF rego and licence, ( i do hold a commercial CASA licence as well) but my aircraft is AUF registered. hmmmm wonder if they are familiar with the AUF operations manual.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne
axiom
I agree: "We are over governed, overtaxed, over regulated"
Now what are you going to do about it??????????????
I suppose we could whinge and wine to our local member or even bitch and belly ache on a forum like this.
Maybe we can write articles like Paul Phelan does. Great journalism!!!!!!!!!!! (Remember he has to sell the article to his editor and it must be entertaining or it don't get printed)
I would be interested in how you would change the aviation industry so as to prevent accidents, death rates in aircraft, insurance premiums from rising etc etc…..
Don’t get me wrong axiom I don’t believe our aviation regulators have got it right. They spend to much time believing if it is illegal it is unsafe.
Making a law doesn’t increase safety!!!!!!!!! It is a bit like people wanting our courts and legal system to hand out justice, they normally don’t get any justice they just get the law. Just as there is no justice in our legal system is there any safety??????????????
I agree: "We are over governed, overtaxed, over regulated"
Now what are you going to do about it??????????????
I suppose we could whinge and wine to our local member or even bitch and belly ache on a forum like this.
Maybe we can write articles like Paul Phelan does. Great journalism!!!!!!!!!!! (Remember he has to sell the article to his editor and it must be entertaining or it don't get printed)
I would be interested in how you would change the aviation industry so as to prevent accidents, death rates in aircraft, insurance premiums from rising etc etc…..
Don’t get me wrong axiom I don’t believe our aviation regulators have got it right. They spend to much time believing if it is illegal it is unsafe.
Making a law doesn’t increase safety!!!!!!!!! It is a bit like people wanting our courts and legal system to hand out justice, they normally don’t get any justice they just get the law. Just as there is no justice in our legal system is there any safety??????????????
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Kind words wagit;
For a start I would offer someone in the middle eschelon CASA a bribe (I can afford about $100) to "whistleblow" on the "old boy's, (Klink included), and even on to the new boys who would not be allowed to give voice to their concerns. (want to chip in ?).
There is a culture of sorts that is not quiet what AOPA and the like have been deliberating for years upon.
Firstly, there is what's called in military circles, a code of advocacy supervision whereby the new inductee is given over to an old seasoned wag and "learned the ropes".
These blokes are not given a chance to see what due process is all about and are in effect "brainwashed".......yeh! yeh! reds under the bed..
Until the whole rotten gang is publically humiliated and forced out into the open, they will stand behind the weakest Minister for things flying ever and blame the "system" and the system will have more inquiries.
This lot cover for their mates to the extent of criminal negligence and use piblic safety as the reason for their existence.
Secondly, the whole show is run and orchestrated by a bunch of bureacrats and lawyers who don't give a whit about safety and they need a serious matter (read that as a major crash), to bring about a stage for their incompetence. Heaven help us if it happens!
And thirdly, the aviation sector in Australia (read this as a minority group), need cohesiveness from the blowtorch mob to the ultralights. Something we don't have at the moment and being exploited by our "saviours" to no end.
Finally, if I could afford it, I would have the lot who f***ked with my retirement at the bench to account for their actions.
As a sub sequence, I would press all who have been shafted to get behind their strongest member of parliament and embarass them until the do something. Be pragmatic enough to go to the opposition or beyond to get some sort of a result, and, get the matter into the Senate whenever there is a strong and forceful enough inquiry into aviation.
One other thing; Sack the present Director of aviation safety/ AKA new CEO and start afresh with someone who learnt to fly in Australia and has Australia as a place of aviation priority, not Europe.
Remember, Amateurs built the Ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
For a start I would offer someone in the middle eschelon CASA a bribe (I can afford about $100) to "whistleblow" on the "old boy's, (Klink included), and even on to the new boys who would not be allowed to give voice to their concerns. (want to chip in ?).
There is a culture of sorts that is not quiet what AOPA and the like have been deliberating for years upon.
Firstly, there is what's called in military circles, a code of advocacy supervision whereby the new inductee is given over to an old seasoned wag and "learned the ropes".
These blokes are not given a chance to see what due process is all about and are in effect "brainwashed".......yeh! yeh! reds under the bed..
Until the whole rotten gang is publically humiliated and forced out into the open, they will stand behind the weakest Minister for things flying ever and blame the "system" and the system will have more inquiries.
This lot cover for their mates to the extent of criminal negligence and use piblic safety as the reason for their existence.
Secondly, the whole show is run and orchestrated by a bunch of bureacrats and lawyers who don't give a whit about safety and they need a serious matter (read that as a major crash), to bring about a stage for their incompetence. Heaven help us if it happens!
And thirdly, the aviation sector in Australia (read this as a minority group), need cohesiveness from the blowtorch mob to the ultralights. Something we don't have at the moment and being exploited by our "saviours" to no end.
Finally, if I could afford it, I would have the lot who f***ked with my retirement at the bench to account for their actions.
As a sub sequence, I would press all who have been shafted to get behind their strongest member of parliament and embarass them until the do something. Be pragmatic enough to go to the opposition or beyond to get some sort of a result, and, get the matter into the Senate whenever there is a strong and forceful enough inquiry into aviation.
One other thing; Sack the present Director of aviation safety/ AKA new CEO and start afresh with someone who learnt to fly in Australia and has Australia as a place of aviation priority, not Europe.
Remember, Amateurs built the Ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
From: Under the Equator
Axiom;
Brother, you were making a lot of sence right up to when you proposed a full revolution with the de-throning of Mr T.
You have identified the biggest-est problem CASA has which is the area offices and the front-line Gestapo FOI's.
My guess is that with the board gone, you might actually see some action now that a few guys up top can operate without having to run to the board first. The board was a cushy club made up of political appointees who didn't want to rock the boat.
When the day comes that I can get an AOC change through in just three weeks instead of three months or longer - is the day that some reform has really happened.
Brother, you were making a lot of sence right up to when you proposed a full revolution with the de-throning of Mr T.
You have identified the biggest-est problem CASA has which is the area offices and the front-line Gestapo FOI's.
My guess is that with the board gone, you might actually see some action now that a few guys up top can operate without having to run to the board first. The board was a cushy club made up of political appointees who didn't want to rock the boat.
When the day comes that I can get an AOC change through in just three weeks instead of three months or longer - is the day that some reform has really happened.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 477
Likes: 2
From: Australia
Well the CASA crackdown and the expected air movements at Ceduna did not eventuate. When I arrived in Ceduna at 4pm on Wednesday, there was ~20 aircraft on the ground. No sign of any CASA inspectors either.
Seems to me if anyone hears from CASA that they will be ramping people somewhere, thats one place they wont be.
Did anyone get ramped at Leigh Creek?
Bevan..
Seems to me if anyone hears from CASA that they will be ramping people somewhere, thats one place they wont be.
Did anyone get ramped at Leigh Creek?
Bevan..
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,865
Likes: 50
From: Next door to the neighbor from hell, who believes in chemtrails!
No, no-one got ramped at Leigh Creek. The "powers that be" did not visit there, nor the strip at nearby Lyndhurst. Over 3 days (Wed. Thurs & Fri) a total of 48 aircraft passed through Leigh Creek. 
Last edited by Desert Flower; 11th December 2002 at 02:26.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: Cairns
Paranoid
Why are so many people worried about ramp checks. I have had a number of them to date and everyone has been a rewarding experience. The only hardball was the maintenance experts, they say nothing and check your plane. The guys checking your licence ect, are great, they have been there done it before and know what it is like. Every time I have passed with flying colours and received letters to that effect.
I'd like to think that they might pull up operators, not Pilots, who continually run risks in running the show,, after all how many Pilots out there don't want to be home for dinner and sweets.
If you really have a gripe with the way CASA does things, then play the game, they list all NPRM and they are there for comment, get involved.
P.S. When I started flying 6 years ago there where a lot more Private Pilots, they are slowly becoming a dime a dozen or reverting to ultra light. Let us all promote flying as a safe fun adventure that it is. We can do this by starting to be the best we can and through positive media coverage.
I'd like to think that they might pull up operators, not Pilots, who continually run risks in running the show,, after all how many Pilots out there don't want to be home for dinner and sweets.
If you really have a gripe with the way CASA does things, then play the game, they list all NPRM and they are there for comment, get involved.
P.S. When I started flying 6 years ago there where a lot more Private Pilots, they are slowly becoming a dime a dozen or reverting to ultra light. Let us all promote flying as a safe fun adventure that it is. We can do this by starting to be the best we can and through positive media coverage.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Skyway me old mate !
I feel warm and fuzzy already !!
When I got my licence in 1965 I had # 29***
Now (2002), I am 04****
Same digits, same bods, STATIC mate.
How many NPRM's have you commented on and did you really understand them all ?
Have you seen the bunfight going on over Proposed part 11 ?
Why did it take my flying club nearly 12 months to get an aircraft added to their AOC ?
"Play the game, be involved"
"Play the game, be invalidated"
Sorry mate, been there done that, seen too much to become a convert now. Didn't see the "Colonel" in action did you?
"WHO" CALLED ME PARANOID ?
I feel warm and fuzzy already !!
When I got my licence in 1965 I had # 29***
Now (2002), I am 04****
Same digits, same bods, STATIC mate.
How many NPRM's have you commented on and did you really understand them all ?
Have you seen the bunfight going on over Proposed part 11 ?
Why did it take my flying club nearly 12 months to get an aircraft added to their AOC ?
"Play the game, be involved"
"Play the game, be invalidated"
Sorry mate, been there done that, seen too much to become a convert now. Didn't see the "Colonel" in action did you?
"WHO" CALLED ME PARANOID ?
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: Cairns
O.K then not paranoid
Axiom,
My post was not to stir you up. If thats what it did, I sincerly apologise.
I merely suggest that the ramp check officials are no more than the Police of the sky, they enforce rules and regs made by others.
This, in my opinion is a nescessary thing.
Yes you are right there are so many NPRM and have been many in the past, each one passing, yet comments or relplies made by individuals may not be in favour of.
My concern is that the Attitudes towards rules and regs is turning away hundreds of potential wannabees, just stand around the club bar and hear the talk. To the new bloke listening in, everything starts to sound to hard and eventually turns to kite surfing or wake boarding for enjoyment.
I believe we need to all take notice of whats going on and voice our opinions, the people who need to will eventually listen. If you dont believe that then where all %$#$%$!
As to understanding NPRM, no I dont understand a lot of them, but I ring and bug the $%#$ out of them to find out. I had a CFI once who could not interpret an AIP ammendment, He was one of the best CFI's I have come across, could rattle off any reg or rule, so I learnt from the start that the writing was all in Law jargon. In fact a very good friend of mine who was studying his 4th year Law helped me with some of the theory and even he had trouble, goes to show.
Again, no stress Axiom, I am just early into my career and wish to see the industry move into a positive future rather than the other way around.
My post was not to stir you up. If thats what it did, I sincerly apologise.
I merely suggest that the ramp check officials are no more than the Police of the sky, they enforce rules and regs made by others.
This, in my opinion is a nescessary thing.
Yes you are right there are so many NPRM and have been many in the past, each one passing, yet comments or relplies made by individuals may not be in favour of.
My concern is that the Attitudes towards rules and regs is turning away hundreds of potential wannabees, just stand around the club bar and hear the talk. To the new bloke listening in, everything starts to sound to hard and eventually turns to kite surfing or wake boarding for enjoyment.
I believe we need to all take notice of whats going on and voice our opinions, the people who need to will eventually listen. If you dont believe that then where all %$#$%$!
As to understanding NPRM, no I dont understand a lot of them, but I ring and bug the $%#$ out of them to find out. I had a CFI once who could not interpret an AIP ammendment, He was one of the best CFI's I have come across, could rattle off any reg or rule, so I learnt from the start that the writing was all in Law jargon. In fact a very good friend of mine who was studying his 4th year Law helped me with some of the theory and even he had trouble, goes to show.
Again, no stress Axiom, I am just early into my career and wish to see the industry move into a positive future rather than the other way around.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
From: Australia
STRUTH !
Police of the sky !
These guys promulgate the rules, administer the rules, prosecute the rules and punish you according to the rules which they made up.
Read carefully a quote from an email loop I am involved in;
"The regulations are made by Parliament so CASA cannot be sued for simply complying with the regulation, provided the regulation allows CASA no discretionary scope"
(they make the laws for Parliament to rubber stamp).
"As soon as you add an element of discretionary scope to a regulation it opens the door to liability for the Authority"
(They make the rules so that everything is illegal, thus no discretionary powers are involved and therefor no liability).
"(CASA), is now fairly paraniod about being sued and is almost totally directed towards self protection instead of progress. As a consequence it is now being seen as a substantial obstruction to trade."
Should I go on ?
We are in the throes of meaningful change in so far as Ted Anson, Chairman of the CASA Board (and still there until 30th June 2003) is concerned.
John Anderson has announced a consultative Industry liasion body be set up to promulgate the laws for Parliament, (so CASA does not),
CASa should be doing what it's mandate allows it, to administer the laws, and, no, to date nothing has been said about who will prosecute the laws. But god help us if CASA continue to be the "Police of the sky".
Read the Australian Constitution chapters 1, 2 and 3 and with particular emphasis on chapter 3, the separation of the powers.
See then why a mob of bureacrats cannot be allowed to be judge, jury and executioner at whim, but still maintain they are acting without discretionary powers, and are therefor untouchable.
I have mates within CASA and a lot more outside, but even those within can see the writing on the wall. These guys don't know what due process is all about because they have'nt been taught.
They have even less knowledge about the rule of law and many abuse the trust that blokes like you have in them.
Have faith brother, you'll need it in any aviation career you undertake.
I admire your innocence !
Police of the sky !
These guys promulgate the rules, administer the rules, prosecute the rules and punish you according to the rules which they made up.
Read carefully a quote from an email loop I am involved in;
"The regulations are made by Parliament so CASA cannot be sued for simply complying with the regulation, provided the regulation allows CASA no discretionary scope"
(they make the laws for Parliament to rubber stamp).
"As soon as you add an element of discretionary scope to a regulation it opens the door to liability for the Authority"
(They make the rules so that everything is illegal, thus no discretionary powers are involved and therefor no liability).
"(CASA), is now fairly paraniod about being sued and is almost totally directed towards self protection instead of progress. As a consequence it is now being seen as a substantial obstruction to trade."
Should I go on ?
We are in the throes of meaningful change in so far as Ted Anson, Chairman of the CASA Board (and still there until 30th June 2003) is concerned.
John Anderson has announced a consultative Industry liasion body be set up to promulgate the laws for Parliament, (so CASA does not),
CASa should be doing what it's mandate allows it, to administer the laws, and, no, to date nothing has been said about who will prosecute the laws. But god help us if CASA continue to be the "Police of the sky".
Read the Australian Constitution chapters 1, 2 and 3 and with particular emphasis on chapter 3, the separation of the powers.
See then why a mob of bureacrats cannot be allowed to be judge, jury and executioner at whim, but still maintain they are acting without discretionary powers, and are therefor untouchable.
I have mates within CASA and a lot more outside, but even those within can see the writing on the wall. These guys don't know what due process is all about because they have'nt been taught.
They have even less knowledge about the rule of law and many abuse the trust that blokes like you have in them.
Have faith brother, you'll need it in any aviation career you undertake.
I admire your innocence !
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Nice of you to email me skyways, but I guess the heat is too hot on the kitchen for you to reply to mine.
If you have something, let me know, or at least post a reply saying you adhere to CASA rules and I'll know SNAFU !
I'll understand as will all.
If you have something, let me know, or at least post a reply saying you adhere to CASA rules and I'll know SNAFU !
I'll understand as will all.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: Third Rock
Let em look through the window...great sentiments!
Give em nothing its hard the first ramp I copped took two hours!
4 pax, two hours fuel in a PA31.....you work it out! Must have been overweight!!
Anyways the next time, big charter group two aircraft, about to board and this ...... is crawling all over the plane.
No introduction to myself or the passengers. It caused concern to myself the other pilot and the passengers.
Had he come over and said something along the lines "Folks we're from the friendly CASA, conducting a random check, we're sure all is well, but we just want to be sure....."
I simply presented all the info as alluded to above, told the lil fella he was impeding a commercial operation and Id be back at x hours. Handed over my mobile number and said I had to go, unless there was something important stopping me. There was nothing.
They have a job to do so do I..
BUT UNTIL THEY SHOW RESPECT TO WHOM THEY REGULATE, WHY SHOULD WE GIVE THEM THE TIME OF DAY?
I had nothing to hide, complied with the extent that I'm required that's all!
.......Don't give em anything you dont have to. Its always been the case that most people in talking volunteer everything needed for a successful prosecution within 10 minutes.... Get a lawyer, say nothing and refer all matters to the Chief Pilot.
As Homer Simpson said "Keep your darn fool mouth shut and dont make it worse"
And so i advise
Give em nothing its hard the first ramp I copped took two hours!
4 pax, two hours fuel in a PA31.....you work it out! Must have been overweight!!
Anyways the next time, big charter group two aircraft, about to board and this ...... is crawling all over the plane.
No introduction to myself or the passengers. It caused concern to myself the other pilot and the passengers.
Had he come over and said something along the lines "Folks we're from the friendly CASA, conducting a random check, we're sure all is well, but we just want to be sure....."
I simply presented all the info as alluded to above, told the lil fella he was impeding a commercial operation and Id be back at x hours. Handed over my mobile number and said I had to go, unless there was something important stopping me. There was nothing.
They have a job to do so do I..
BUT UNTIL THEY SHOW RESPECT TO WHOM THEY REGULATE, WHY SHOULD WE GIVE THEM THE TIME OF DAY?
I had nothing to hide, complied with the extent that I'm required that's all!
.......Don't give em anything you dont have to. Its always been the case that most people in talking volunteer everything needed for a successful prosecution within 10 minutes.... Get a lawyer, say nothing and refer all matters to the Chief Pilot.
As Homer Simpson said "Keep your darn fool mouth shut and dont make it worse"
And so i advise
