Disillusioned with G.A
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Disillusioned with G.A
Looking for advise, 28 years old, trade qualified, Instructor rated 600hrs, minimal multi time, building hours extremely slowly, good oppurtunity has arisen back in the trade, considering defection big dreams and high hopes, but also realistic, any advise much appreciated.
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S&R
Am 32 years old, trade qualified. Now driving a 206 around the bush. Left a big company that had good working conditions, gave out lots of training and paid much, much, MUCH more than I currently receive.
But I wouldn't go back, even realising I am probably too old to get a job driving something with "Boeing" printed on the side (hang on, a Stearman is a Boeing isn't it?).
Do you HAVE to fly? That is the question, my friend.
Am 32 years old, trade qualified. Now driving a 206 around the bush. Left a big company that had good working conditions, gave out lots of training and paid much, much, MUCH more than I currently receive.
But I wouldn't go back, even realising I am probably too old to get a job driving something with "Boeing" printed on the side (hang on, a Stearman is a Boeing isn't it?).
Do you HAVE to fly? That is the question, my friend.
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Stick_and_Rudder, If you want to stay in the flying game as an Instructor and want heaps of hours and a full time wage try China Southern WA Flying College. You can get up to 800 hours a year easy, more if you want. Call the Operations Manager Peter Nottle 08 9417 4777. I started in Nov 2000 as a Gr 3 with 600 hrs and now am a Gr1 with 1800hrs META and teaching on new Seneca V's. Give it twelve months or so and you wont regret it.
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Far be it from me to give career advice - only YOU know what all of your aspirations, talents and particular circumstances are - but I'd suggest that you try to evaluate everything as objectively and dispassionately as possible.
If going back to your former trade seems like the better option, then do it. Don't be put off by what other people may think, or the feeling that you have to cotinue because you've already made a big investment in aviation. There's no point throwing good money (or time) after bad.
Whatever happens, your 600 hours to date have not been a waste. Hopefully you've learned a lot about yourself, picked up a nice hobby that will continue to interest you for many years to come, and made some good friends.
Good luck with your decision.
MLS-12D
If going back to your former trade seems like the better option, then do it. Don't be put off by what other people may think, or the feeling that you have to cotinue because you've already made a big investment in aviation. There's no point throwing good money (or time) after bad.
Whatever happens, your 600 hours to date have not been a waste. Hopefully you've learned a lot about yourself, picked up a nice hobby that will continue to interest you for many years to come, and made some good friends.
Good luck with your decision.
MLS-12D
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stick_&_rudder, will you earn enough money in your trade to pay for your occasional 'fix' ? How hooked are you on this drug called aviation? Perhaps you can instruct a bit on the weekend. There are many many instructors around that have to work somewhere to support their 'addiction'. Look in the mirror and you will see the answer.
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Disillusioned
Stick and Rudder you have every right to feel that way, so I am not going to offer any advice, just tell it as it is.
First a disclaimer, I am employed as a professional pilot, and I do enjoy the work. I hate the industry.
Reality check! Aviation is an abusive industry whether your at the top or the bottom. It will put enormous strains on your family and friends and your psyche, why?
Because you work shiftwork, travel constantly and have no employment safeguards of any real meaning to talk about. Your income and livelihood is on the line every six to twelve months with your annual or bi-annual check. You will have paid enormous amounts of time, effort and money to get in, get qualified and survive, then you have to find a real job (whatever that is). Then the rest is luck.
As you move through you will encounter, shonks and liars and some really nice people. The shonks and liars are those who pay you, the others your mates. You will have some great days and some horrors, and some times why you wondered why on earth anyone in the right mind would do it. Well it's fun, the moment it isn't then its time to go. While your having fun you can forget that your roster changes continuously, your never home, the local office clerk gets better pay, has proper conditions of employment and does not have to live the back of the black stump to practise their craft. The older you get the worse it gets. Why? this is an industry in decline, as economists say, it is in its tertiary phase. It cycles through boom and bust on five to ten year cycles continuously and without luck your end up on the outer, simple. The opportunities of the past are gone and you need to look at it from a 2002 perspective not the viewpoint of someone who has been it for twenty years and can only think of the good old days.
A 2002 perspective - if you want to operate a thirty to forty year old piece of machinery in all weather for below average wages in depressed and stagnating rural areas, then this is the job for you. If you are independently wealthy, then this is the job for you. If you don't mind losing your job to another newbie on lower rates with a fraction of your experience, then this is the job for you. The alternative, proper paid employment that gives you evenings and weekends off with your loved one or family, and fly for fun, that way you will be able to retire to somewhere on the coast or country, not to a public housing estate or caravan. That's the reality. It's fun when your young, it's crap when your not.
Still love flying though, just grown out of the frontal lobotomy.
First a disclaimer, I am employed as a professional pilot, and I do enjoy the work. I hate the industry.
Reality check! Aviation is an abusive industry whether your at the top or the bottom. It will put enormous strains on your family and friends and your psyche, why?
Because you work shiftwork, travel constantly and have no employment safeguards of any real meaning to talk about. Your income and livelihood is on the line every six to twelve months with your annual or bi-annual check. You will have paid enormous amounts of time, effort and money to get in, get qualified and survive, then you have to find a real job (whatever that is). Then the rest is luck.
As you move through you will encounter, shonks and liars and some really nice people. The shonks and liars are those who pay you, the others your mates. You will have some great days and some horrors, and some times why you wondered why on earth anyone in the right mind would do it. Well it's fun, the moment it isn't then its time to go. While your having fun you can forget that your roster changes continuously, your never home, the local office clerk gets better pay, has proper conditions of employment and does not have to live the back of the black stump to practise their craft. The older you get the worse it gets. Why? this is an industry in decline, as economists say, it is in its tertiary phase. It cycles through boom and bust on five to ten year cycles continuously and without luck your end up on the outer, simple. The opportunities of the past are gone and you need to look at it from a 2002 perspective not the viewpoint of someone who has been it for twenty years and can only think of the good old days.
A 2002 perspective - if you want to operate a thirty to forty year old piece of machinery in all weather for below average wages in depressed and stagnating rural areas, then this is the job for you. If you are independently wealthy, then this is the job for you. If you don't mind losing your job to another newbie on lower rates with a fraction of your experience, then this is the job for you. The alternative, proper paid employment that gives you evenings and weekends off with your loved one or family, and fly for fun, that way you will be able to retire to somewhere on the coast or country, not to a public housing estate or caravan. That's the reality. It's fun when your young, it's crap when your not.
Still love flying though, just grown out of the frontal lobotomy.
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Rumour has it that CSWAFC will have to increase productivity from 120 students per year to 400 students per year by 2004. Minimum instructor productivity is 800 hours per year (ie you must fly/sim at least 800 hours per year!). That should get the hours ticking along...
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Mate,
I left aviation in March or April this year (2002). I had 1234 hours made up of charter and instructing time. My boss at the time gave my job to a fellow employee for about $200 a week. At the time it p#ssed me off, but now I know that it was one of the greatest things that ever happened to me.
Aviation is a criminal business. It shouldn't be allowed to operate the way that it does. But Pilots have it drummed into them that it's "...the way it is - always has been always will be...", and they are prepared to accept it, and abuse themselves at the same time. Don't lower yourself to that standard!
Life "on the outside" is fantastic. Don't be concerned about the money you have invested in aviation - cut your losses and start fresh.
Life is good. Enjoy it whilst you can.
Good Luck!
I left aviation in March or April this year (2002). I had 1234 hours made up of charter and instructing time. My boss at the time gave my job to a fellow employee for about $200 a week. At the time it p#ssed me off, but now I know that it was one of the greatest things that ever happened to me.
Aviation is a criminal business. It shouldn't be allowed to operate the way that it does. But Pilots have it drummed into them that it's "...the way it is - always has been always will be...", and they are prepared to accept it, and abuse themselves at the same time. Don't lower yourself to that standard!
Life "on the outside" is fantastic. Don't be concerned about the money you have invested in aviation - cut your losses and start fresh.
Life is good. Enjoy it whilst you can.
Good Luck!
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Thank you!
A lot of excellent advise here.
It's a shame that G.A pilots don't band together and do something about these problems, it seems we are making things worse for ourselves and for those that come after us.
What can/could we do, as a group of fellow aviators to force change on the industry?
My guess is that more of us would remain in G.A if things improved
ie. normal wages, reasonable hours, a little job security.
Would it be safe to assume that only 10% (if that) of the entire industry are getting these things now?
A lot of excellent advise here.
It's a shame that G.A pilots don't band together and do something about these problems, it seems we are making things worse for ourselves and for those that come after us.
What can/could we do, as a group of fellow aviators to force change on the industry?
My guess is that more of us would remain in G.A if things improved
ie. normal wages, reasonable hours, a little job security.
Would it be safe to assume that only 10% (if that) of the entire industry are getting these things now?
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Wow! This is one of the most positive threads I have seen!!
All the good advice has been given, so I'll just say good luck whatever you do.
Oh, and 28 with 600 hrs isn't that bad!!!
All the good advice has been given, so I'll just say good luck whatever you do.
Oh, and 28 with 600 hrs isn't that bad!!!
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S & R;
It would really be super to have the whole industry band together but as there is not enough (never enough) work to go around - you will find that a number of our 'comrades' will always be willing to break ranks and work for peanuts.
It has always amazed me that a few operators that have always paid peanuts and demanded long hours have never-ever had a shortage of applicants.
When the dream is strong - people will do anything (well - almost anything
).
Look at the way B.T.T. was shafted by a fellow pilot who accepted $200 a week less. Yes, you can say the operator was/is at fault, I agree - but the fact that BTT's mate was prepared to do it for less is just as bad.
BTW; C.F. is 80% right - go west & try CSWAFC. Good operators, good aircraft and good money.
Good Luck
It would really be super to have the whole industry band together but as there is not enough (never enough) work to go around - you will find that a number of our 'comrades' will always be willing to break ranks and work for peanuts.
It has always amazed me that a few operators that have always paid peanuts and demanded long hours have never-ever had a shortage of applicants.
When the dream is strong - people will do anything (well - almost anything
).Look at the way B.T.T. was shafted by a fellow pilot who accepted $200 a week less. Yes, you can say the operator was/is at fault, I agree - but the fact that BTT's mate was prepared to do it for less is just as bad.
BTW; C.F. is 80% right - go west & try CSWAFC. Good operators, good aircraft and good money.
Good Luck
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Makes you wonder why CSWAFC still do the right thing by their employees, while most other operators are still shafting and exploiting.
Full praise to CSWAFC, keep setting the good example!
Would'nt hurt a few of the other to follow suit! If only they knew, that doing the right and fair thing improves productivity and keeps staff morale at high levels! Makes for a more proffesional organisation.
Customers get deterred when they here whinging about pay and conditions, but you can hardly blame the pilot's, a lot of them are working in 3rd world conditions, some for free (which makes them slaves) and a lot of others for less than an unemployment benefit.
After forking out $30K, $40K, $50K, or even more, whatever the case may be, along with all the associated study, all to be spat out the other end to wind up as some gready operators lap dog, working for peanuts, and in some cases, just the shells of the peanuts!
I know a lot of people will say " If you can't handle the heat, then get out of the fire!". But I'm just like all those other's that are still hanging on by a thread of hope that maybe one day we will be able to claw our way from this deadly snake pit! And perhaps land a job, where we are respected a little, and are paid appropriately.
So much for all the B.S that flying schools feed their potential students when they're making inquiries. (All the airline ****!) I think most of them would make excellent Amway salesmen!
I see a lot of naive people fall victim too this trap!
How do these guy's (shonky operators) sleep at night?
Full praise to CSWAFC, keep setting the good example!
Would'nt hurt a few of the other to follow suit! If only they knew, that doing the right and fair thing improves productivity and keeps staff morale at high levels! Makes for a more proffesional organisation.
Customers get deterred when they here whinging about pay and conditions, but you can hardly blame the pilot's, a lot of them are working in 3rd world conditions, some for free (which makes them slaves) and a lot of others for less than an unemployment benefit.
After forking out $30K, $40K, $50K, or even more, whatever the case may be, along with all the associated study, all to be spat out the other end to wind up as some gready operators lap dog, working for peanuts, and in some cases, just the shells of the peanuts!
I know a lot of people will say " If you can't handle the heat, then get out of the fire!". But I'm just like all those other's that are still hanging on by a thread of hope that maybe one day we will be able to claw our way from this deadly snake pit! And perhaps land a job, where we are respected a little, and are paid appropriately.
So much for all the B.S that flying schools feed their potential students when they're making inquiries. (All the airline ****!) I think most of them would make excellent Amway salesmen!
I see a lot of naive people fall victim too this trap!
How do these guy's (shonky operators) sleep at night?
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All I can say is Never Ever Give up,never.....
Ive been retrenched, unemployed for nearly a year. Ive seen liars, shonks and cheats all cut throats for that seemingly obvious short cut.....Most of them fall by the wayside. Those who know my story know I finally found a GA company who gave me another start, gave me the confidence and my break came!
It can be a fairytale!
By the way didnt take a lesson until I was 26!
PERSIST,PERSIST
And i so advise
Ive been retrenched, unemployed for nearly a year. Ive seen liars, shonks and cheats all cut throats for that seemingly obvious short cut.....Most of them fall by the wayside. Those who know my story know I finally found a GA company who gave me another start, gave me the confidence and my break came!
It can be a fairytale!
By the way didnt take a lesson until I was 26!
PERSIST,PERSIST
And i so advise
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Here's a reality check for you, S & R:
I left an unskilled job working with my brother-in-law that paid $54k back in the late '80s, to go to the job I always wanted that paid $20k.
It's now 14 years later. I'm now in the second highest pay bracket in the company I work for.
I have no possibility of career progression (at the moment) as my company neither supports nor nurtures it. Therefore in 12 months I will earn the maximum wage that I ever can without moving into Check/Training. At 40 something my career opportunities are severely limited, as regardless of anti-age discrimination laws it is alive and well in Australia. My brother-in-law still has several layers of progression available to him.
The catfish of this industry are continually giving in to companies and accepting lower wages in exchange for an occupation with ever increasing demands for safety and accountability. Doesn't make sense to me to accept less for more?????
I have the responsibility of many lives on my plate every day, yet my brother-in-law doesn't.
I have the opportunity to lose my job and my family's livelihood a minimum of 5 times per year with Cyclics and other checks. My brother-in-law doesn't.
I get to work lousy hours and am regularly fatigued. I get one weekend off every 28 day cycle to be with my family. So it can be 6 weeks between weekends off. My brother-in-law works the same shift every day and has weekends off with his family.
My brother-in-law is still in the same job he was 14 years ago, yet he earns at least $5k more P.A. than me and has an excellent Superannuation scheme......
My brother-in-law dislikes his job. I still like mine, but the enthusiasm is wearing thin. Passion for the job doesn't pay the bills or appease your family which demands (and deserves) more of your time......You work to live - not live to work. He walks away from his job at the end of the day. I have to be in the books a lot of the time (my own time). He's no worse off disliking his job.
The key is what you want to have at the end of your career for yourself and your family (lifestyle)? Unless you get into a major airline that pays big bucks, or are independently wealthy, then you would be better off in the higher paying non-aviation job when the time comes to retirement.
Trades require less outlay on the individual's behalf and have the potential to reward you far more financially than a job in anything apart from a major airline. Just one reason why flying training is dying in the arse. The rewards are just not there.
Good luck S & R. It's not a bad job for a while. But when it comes down to it, it's just another job.
You just have to work out what your priorities in life are.............
I left an unskilled job working with my brother-in-law that paid $54k back in the late '80s, to go to the job I always wanted that paid $20k.
It's now 14 years later. I'm now in the second highest pay bracket in the company I work for.
I have no possibility of career progression (at the moment) as my company neither supports nor nurtures it. Therefore in 12 months I will earn the maximum wage that I ever can without moving into Check/Training. At 40 something my career opportunities are severely limited, as regardless of anti-age discrimination laws it is alive and well in Australia. My brother-in-law still has several layers of progression available to him.
The catfish of this industry are continually giving in to companies and accepting lower wages in exchange for an occupation with ever increasing demands for safety and accountability. Doesn't make sense to me to accept less for more?????
I have the responsibility of many lives on my plate every day, yet my brother-in-law doesn't.
I have the opportunity to lose my job and my family's livelihood a minimum of 5 times per year with Cyclics and other checks. My brother-in-law doesn't.
I get to work lousy hours and am regularly fatigued. I get one weekend off every 28 day cycle to be with my family. So it can be 6 weeks between weekends off. My brother-in-law works the same shift every day and has weekends off with his family.
My brother-in-law is still in the same job he was 14 years ago, yet he earns at least $5k more P.A. than me and has an excellent Superannuation scheme......
My brother-in-law dislikes his job. I still like mine, but the enthusiasm is wearing thin. Passion for the job doesn't pay the bills or appease your family which demands (and deserves) more of your time......You work to live - not live to work. He walks away from his job at the end of the day. I have to be in the books a lot of the time (my own time). He's no worse off disliking his job.
The key is what you want to have at the end of your career for yourself and your family (lifestyle)? Unless you get into a major airline that pays big bucks, or are independently wealthy, then you would be better off in the higher paying non-aviation job when the time comes to retirement.
Trades require less outlay on the individual's behalf and have the potential to reward you far more financially than a job in anything apart from a major airline. Just one reason why flying training is dying in the arse. The rewards are just not there.
Good luck S & R. It's not a bad job for a while. But when it comes down to it, it's just another job.
You just have to work out what your priorities in life are.............
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Thanks guys
Reading your emails has made realise how lucky I have been in my aviation career so far.
Only had good bosses and co-workers so far. Full time jobs flying very well maintained singles & twin machines, with 7 1/2 weeks paid leave, acomm, power,water, car, supplied and safety bonuses.
Bosses can be a bit hard from time to time but I have not come across a shonk or criminal and I hope I never do.
Stick & Rudder I sincerely hope you have a bit of luck soon, so you can stay with the rest of us.
Reading your emails has made realise how lucky I have been in my aviation career so far.
Only had good bosses and co-workers so far. Full time jobs flying very well maintained singles & twin machines, with 7 1/2 weeks paid leave, acomm, power,water, car, supplied and safety bonuses.
Bosses can be a bit hard from time to time but I have not come across a shonk or criminal and I hope I never do.
Stick & Rudder I sincerely hope you have a bit of luck soon, so you can stay with the rest of us.
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Well it sounds like most of the reply's are with good intentions on this post, Some people have a good run and others dont, it's no different in any other profession.
My own experience (speaking strictly about aviation) was nealry 2 years before I got a job then single's, eventually into piston twins for 2 and a half years then finally a turbo prop job, where I have been for 2 years. I am now 26. In my time with them I have been relocated 4 times and threatend with redundancy while others juinor to me with less experience but better connections maintain their positions. These people come and go and I still beleive that Karma F***k's you in the end if you have the cut throat attitude. Be careful, very careful about what you say, and who you say it to in aviation and that supports your company as well and learn to identify and trust the people that "help" you and treat them with the same respect.
Thats all I can say, You'll get there in the end!!!!!!!!!!!!
My own experience (speaking strictly about aviation) was nealry 2 years before I got a job then single's, eventually into piston twins for 2 and a half years then finally a turbo prop job, where I have been for 2 years. I am now 26. In my time with them I have been relocated 4 times and threatend with redundancy while others juinor to me with less experience but better connections maintain their positions. These people come and go and I still beleive that Karma F***k's you in the end if you have the cut throat attitude. Be careful, very careful about what you say, and who you say it to in aviation and that supports your company as well and learn to identify and trust the people that "help" you and treat them with the same respect.
Thats all I can say, You'll get there in the end!!!!!!!!!!!!
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One point that I feel has not been mentioned is the economical viability of a company, how many companies out there are operating new aircraft, how many aviation companies just make too much money, very very few i'd imagine.
Many pilots feel that just because they have a license the industry owes them a living, some other industires can be categorised as adult day care centres, can afford to do this in GA ?.
Some companies just can not afford to pay, fuel, insurance, repayments on four C208 (50k per month each),maintenance, office staff, phone bills, power, work car, staff accomodation, uniforms and a salary for two pilots for each aircraft etc etc.
This is really not about aviation, the saying " the harder i work the luckier i get" makes a bit of sense, not industry specific. To those flying in GA now, do you expect to be here in 5 years. We are all doing our apprenticeship.
On another note there is a living to be made within GA, in my opinion it is a reasonable one, i would like to earn more (who wouldn't) but i personally am doing what i love, end of story.
Many pilots feel that just because they have a license the industry owes them a living, some other industires can be categorised as adult day care centres, can afford to do this in GA ?.
Some companies just can not afford to pay, fuel, insurance, repayments on four C208 (50k per month each),maintenance, office staff, phone bills, power, work car, staff accomodation, uniforms and a salary for two pilots for each aircraft etc etc.
This is really not about aviation, the saying " the harder i work the luckier i get" makes a bit of sense, not industry specific. To those flying in GA now, do you expect to be here in 5 years. We are all doing our apprenticeship.
On another note there is a living to be made within GA, in my opinion it is a reasonable one, i would like to earn more (who wouldn't) but i personally am doing what i love, end of story.
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Guys it is really great reading this really positive post (for once )
I am a fresh CPL (24 DEC ) i Have only 250hrs Total time and a NVFR and Twin Endorsement. I am at the cross road atm of GA or Instructing... As much as i wanted to hoon aroudn the north in a C210 or similar... i am thinking that at this present time Instructing with CS or Singapore (i live in Perth.. the best city in AUS ) Would be a better option.. Unfortantly i have been well and truly bitten by the bug, and just have so much love for the industry that i am willing to really make a lot of sacrefices (even now lost my GF ect due to the Time, Study and MONEY involved...) However as with anything, if u love it, it is worth it in the end. But thanks for the Wealth of info, and great support.. lets See some more posts like this one :-) Have a great New Year Guys, Enjoy a good drink or 2 or 20 :-)
Cya Round
)I am a fresh CPL (24 DEC
) i Have only 250hrs Total time and a NVFR and Twin Endorsement. I am at the cross road atm of GA or Instructing... As much as i wanted to hoon aroudn the north in a C210 or similar... i am thinking that at this present time Instructing with CS or Singapore (i live in Perth.. the best city in AUS ) Would be a better option.. Unfortantly i have been well and truly bitten by the bug, and just have so much love for the industry that i am willing to really make a lot of sacrefices (even now lost my GF ect due to the Time, Study and MONEY involved...) However as with anything, if u love it, it is worth it in the end. But thanks for the Wealth of info, and great support.. lets See some more posts like this one :-) Have a great New Year Guys, Enjoy a good drink or 2 or 20 :-)Cya Round